V, V and Final Conflict

[theblitz]

So, I have started to watch V (the new version).

I never saw the original so the question is - should I?

Then the obvious follow-up is what about Final Conflict.

I watched a couple of episodes of that a long time back but never got into it. The problem was probably that single episodes just don't work in a single-arc story (I found the same with DS9 which I hated until I watched in order from the beginning).

 

[Robert Maxwell]

The first season of Earth: Final Conflict is far better than the entirety of the new V. It was kind of downhill from there, though.

 

[OmahaStar]

So, I have started to watch V (the new version).

I never saw the original so the question is - should I?

Then the obvious follow-up is what about Final Conflict.

I watched a couple of episodes of that a long time back but never got into it. The problem was probably that single episodes just don't work in a single-arc story (I found the same with DS9 which I hated until I watched in order from the beginning).

The current V is a remake/reimagined version. The general idea is the same (aliens come to Earth, pretend to be our friends and give us technological advances, but are secretly after something nefarious and dastardly), but the way they go about it has no connection.

The only person on-screen in both is the actress who plays Diana. She was Diana (basically, the leader of the aliens at Earth) in the original. She also plays an unrelated character also named Diana (the deposed Queen, mother of the "queen" Anna) in the new series.

The first season of the new series tried to get bogged down with its plot and heavy-handed storytelling. The second season has gotten much better. It's like the writers finally realize they are doing a campy popcorn sci fi show with a big budget, and now they are giving it to us.

 

[OmahaStar]

The first season of Earth: Final Conflict is far better than the entirety of the new V. It was kind of downhill from there, though.

He's talking about V: The Final Battle. You should know this. Duh!

The first miniseries was simply called V. The second miniseries was V: The Final Battle. When it was a hit as well, they let it go to series, and we had one full season called V. It ended on a mild cliffhanger, which also works well as an end to the series. And cast changes were frequent.

 

[theblitz]

He's talking about V: The Final Battle

Actually I wasn't. I was talking about Earth: The Final Conflict.
Didn't even know about V: The Final Battle.

Getting more confused by the minute.

 

[Brikar99]

So, I have started to watch V (the new version).

I never saw the original so the question is - should I?

Then the obvious follow-up is what about Final Conflict.

I watched a couple of episodes of that a long time back but never got into it. The problem was probably that single episodes just don't work in a single-arc story (I found the same with DS9 which I hated until I watched in order from the beginning).

I liked the original 'V' mini-series, but the follow-up 'V: The Final Battle' wasn't nearly as good. I'd still say they're worth watching, though. If you have Netflix, both are available online for streaming.

 

[timothy]

watch the original series all of it . it's worth it then go and watch season one of V the new series . season 2 has only four episodes left . I am recording all ten episodes and watching them all in a mega marathon.

I also recomend THE EVENT.

 

[OmahaStar]

He's talking about V: The Final Battle

Actually I wasn't. I was talking about Earth: The Final Conflict.
Didn't even know about V: The Final Battle.

Getting more confused by the minute.

Then why were you asking about E:FC at the same time as V? There's no connection between them, they are completely separate unrelated series.

 

[Christopher]

So, I have started to watch V (the new version).

I never saw the original so the question is - should I?

Then the obvious follow-up is what about Final Conflict.

Both the original V and Earth: Final Conflict are shows that start off strong and go seriously downhill when taken out of their original creative hands.

The original V miniseries written and directed by Kenneth Johnson is a classic. It's a bit cheesy, it's a knockoff of Arthur C. Clarke's Childhood's End in some ways (and so is Independence Day -- basically anything with giant alien ships hovering over major cities is a riff on that book), and it's kind of ludicrous from a scientific concept, but it's a potent allegory for the rise of Nazism and the Holocaust, a cautionary tale in the vein of It Can't Happen Here.

The sequel miniseries, V: The Final Battle, was taken out of Johnson's hands and abandoned his intended direction for the story, instead turning it into more of a soapy action thriller and giving it a resolution that was too pat and deus ex machina in a number of ways. Then came V: The Series, which dumbed things down and camped them up even further and suffered from a progressively tighter budget over the course of the season, eventually losing so many cast members that the entire Resistance seemed to have only four people in it (which, ironically, is what the current V series has been like for most of its run).


Earth: Final Conflict was based on a Gene Roddenberry pilot that was similar to V, but developer Richard C. Okie reworked it into a more nuanced, thoughtful tale featuring one of the most fascinatingly alien alien races ever seen in TV fiction. Neither good nor evil, the Taelons were simply so different in their mentality and worldview that their ideas of what was best for us couldn't entirely align with our own. So it was a fascinating, rich story that had a lot of philosophical nuance and ambiguity, although the lead actor was too bland for my tastes. Unfortunately, Okie was fired halfway through the first season and the show began its dumbing-down process. As time went on, the richly ambiguous Taelons were reduced more and more to conventional "good guy" and "bad guy" characters, the exploration of ideas and character nuance gave way to wackier high-concept sci-fi and action plots, and more and more characters either got killed off in favor of inadequate replacements or retooled into more simplistic personalities. By seasons 3-4 we'd ended up with two leads whose only character development seemed to be that they got progressively blonder over time.

Then in season 5, which was made only so that the failing show could reach the "magic number" of 100 episodes and hopefully recoup its costs in syndication and home-video sales, the whole format and storyline of E:FC were revamped into something much cheaper and nearly unrecognizable (often derided as a Buffy the Vampire Slayer knockoff of sorts), with only one or two cast members being kept. It's essentially a different show and few would consider it worth bothering with.


To sum up, the original V miniseries and the first season of Earth: Final Conflict are definitely recommended; V: The Final Battle and E:FC season 2-3 can be entertaining to an extent but are letdowns in comparison; and V: The Series and the last season or two of E:FC are eminently skippable.

 

[Angel4576]

The original V mini series (x2) were great fun.

The new V I haven't gotten around to yet so can't really comment.

EFC - first and second seasons I thought were very good. Sadly, after that, it was tripe.

 

[timothy]

I agree the first three season's of EARTH : FINAL CONFLICT AND THEN they go way off the story arc . I stayed with the show till the end hoped it would get better but did'nt . the same with andromeda started good went down hill change of story arc in the middle.

 

[Angel4576]

I must admit, Andromeda always at least retained the ability to keep me amused. Seeing Kev Sorbo hamming it up with pretentions of gravitas, hilarious.

I do agree though, despite it being a generally woeful show, the first two seasons were watchable.

 

[Lindley]

To sum up, the original V miniseries and the first season of Earth: Final Conflict are definitely recommended; V: The Final Battle and E:FC season 2-3 can be entertaining to an extent but are letdowns in comparison; and V: The Series and the last season or two of E:FC are eminently skippable.

I need to correct you on one point. EFC season 5 is terrible, yes; but season 4 is not. In fact, while it's a very different sort of show by then, its raw entertainment value is almost on a par with season 1. Certainly it's better than season 3.

 

[theblitz]

Then why were you asking about E:FC at the same time as V? There's no connection between them, they are completely separate unrelated series.

Because they are basically based on the same premise:
Aliens turning up and pretending to be the nice guys.
Even the names are similar "V: The Final Battle" and "Earth: Final Conflict".

 

[Christopher]

Because they are basically based on the same premise:
Aliens turning up and pretending to be the nice guys.

Well, not really. That does seem to have been the intent of Roddenberry's initial pilot, but in the series as Okie developed it, the Taelons actually did want to help humanity, but their ideas of what was best for us differed from ours because they didn't think like we did, and there was a specific thing they were trying to protect us from that (they believed) required them to manipulate and mislead us in certain ways. Basically they weren't so much malicious as paternalistic: "We're the grownups, we know better than these youngsters, so we're entitled to keep secrets and lie to them about things they aren't old enough to understand and discipline them when they misbehave or disobey us -- all for their own good, of course."

Though that changed when the character of Zo'or was introduced and was pretty much a black-hat bad guy from the start. It was soon afterward that Okie was let go (and I think Zo'or's creator then became the showrunner), and Zo'or became a regular character from then on, the clear-cut "bad" Taelon, leading Da'an to become more and more a "good" Taelon, rather than the original, ambiguous Da'an who could be ally or antagonist depending on the situation.

Even the names are similar "V: The Final Battle" and "Earth: Final Conflict".

Roddenberry's pilot for what became E:FC was titled Battleground Earth. It was changed to avoid confusion with L. Ron Hubbard's Battlefield: Earth. (And I always hated the title Earth: Final Conflict. Very awkward and not very meaningful.)

 

[Mr Light]

I would also point out that EFC Season Four was shockingly good compared to the previous two years. It actually brought the series to a satisfying conclusion... then they went another year with it though

 

[Broccoli]

I wonder about the amount of influence Okie had on early EFC, mainly because everything I have read on the show suggests that David Kirshner was the one Majel Roddenberry hired to develop EFC for then-modern audiences, while Paul Gertz served as head writer on the series during that time (not to say that Okie and fellow executive producer Seaton McLean didn't contribute to the developmental/writing process).

Was Okie really let go midway though the first season? The only reason question this is because he is credited as executive producer for all 22 first season episodes. I know with actors who leave mid-season, they can still appear in the opening credits, but I've usually noticed that once a producer is gone, so is his credit (unless unusually he had it in his contract).

Then in season 5, which was made only so that the failing show could reach the "magic number" of 100 episodes and hopefully recoup its costs in syndication and home-video sales, the whole format and storyline of E:FC were revamped into something much cheaper and nearly unrecognizable (often derided as a Buffy the Vampire Slayer knockoff of sorts), with only one or two cast members being kept. It's essentially a different show and few would consider it worth bothering with.

The show's producers always claimed that they had a five-year run planned, though it is apparent they had enough story arc for only four years and then created...that.

Also, season 5 had three leads carried over from the previous seasons (not counting guest stars).

I would also point out that EFC Season Four was shockingly good compared to the previous two years. It actually brought the series to a satisfying conclusion... then they went another year with it though

Quoted for truth. Sure, the show went through a dramatic and tonal change (sometimes jarringly), but it at least followed a mostly-consistent/coherent story arc that came to a natural conclusion (though I do admit to liking the last 2/3s of season two, after the show found its footing again; season three, while not outright bad, was kinda middling).

Season five was more like a spin-off than anything else.

 

[Christopher]

I wonder about the amount of influence Okie had on early EFC, mainly because everything I have read on the show suggests that David Kirshner was the one Majel Roddenberry hired to develop EFC for then-modern audiences, while Paul Gertz served as head writer on the series during that time (not to say that Okie and fellow executive producer Seaton McLean didn't contribute to the developmental/writing process).

What I read at the time the show was in development and production was that Okie was the head guy responsible for reworking it. Kirschner was Majel R.'s production partner, but Okie was the actual writer the two of them brought in to revise the pilot and the premise. Kirschner has only one writing credit on the entire series, as co-writer of episode 18 along with Paul Gertz.

And Gertz is the one I understood to be Okie's replacement as showrunner. He evidently created Zo'or (at least, he was credited as the writer of Zo'or's first episode), and I always saw Zo'or's introduction as the beginning of the dumbing down of the show, because he was the first outright "evil" Taelon.

Was Okie really let go midway though the first season? The only reason question this is because he is credited as executive producer for all 22 first season episodes.

Well, I'm really not sure. That was my understanding, but I can't swear to it. It might be that he increasingly had to share control with Gertz after that point but didn't officially leave until the end of the season. Tribune had a habit of driving out its show developers one way or another. But it's been a few years since I thought about this so my memory is rusty.

The show's producers always claimed that they had a five-year run planned, though it is apparent they had enough story arc for only four years and then created...that.

The arc was clearly being constantly reinvented as characters were killed off and replaced. Heck, in season 2 they had no idea where they were going; they dabbled in veering into some way-out sci-fi stuff with parallel universes, but quickly abandoned it. So any allegations of having an overall plan are bogus on their face. Like I said, the very existence of season 5 was purely a matter of economics. The show was losing money hand over fist, but Tribune believed they had to get to the magic syndication number to have a viable long-term investment, so they made a fifth season that was as cheap as possible, purely as a means of getting what they believed to be the most out of their investment.

The same thing happened with Andromeda, for exactly the same reasons. After four seasons of diminishing ratings (because Tribune kept firing showrunners and actors and micromanaging the production and forcing constant story changes to fit what they thought the audience wanted at any given moment -- they just couldn't leave well enough alone), they made a fifth purely for economic motives and replaced the existing storyline with a new, cheaper one, though they didn't make as many cast changes.

Also, season 5 had three leads carried over from the previous seasons (not counting guest stars).

But only one, Von Flores, remained from the original cast (although little remained of his original characterization). Of the other two, one debuted in season 3 and the other in season 4. So by that point it was very nearly a complete cast turnover.

I would also point out that EFC Season Four was shockingly good compared to the previous two years. It actually brought the series to a satisfying conclusion... then they went another year with it though

Quoted for truth. Sure, the show went through a dramatic and tonal change (sometimes jarringly), but it at least followed a mostly-consistent/coherent story arc that came to a natural conclusion (though I do admit to liking the last 2/3s of season two, after the show found its footing again; season three, while not outright bad, was kinda middling).

I didn't see very much of S4, but I don't remember being impressed by it. Maybe it could've been satisfying as a lowbrow sci-fantasy action show, but compared to the intelligence and literacy the show began with, it still seemed idiotic. And Liam, Renee, and Street were pretty weak substitutes for Boone, Lily, and Augur.

The problem was, Majel Roddenberry hooked up with the wrong studio. She wanted to do sophisticated, thought-provoking, idea-driven, scientifically plausible science fiction in the spirit of what her husband would've wanted -- and she actually brought in showrunners who were better qualified to achieve that than Gene Roddenberry himself ever was. But Tribune wanted lowest-common-denominator action fluff, something simple enough and action-oriented enough that it would be easy to translate for lucrative overseas markets, and they weren't willing to invest enough in production and personnel to pull off the kind of quality Majel wanted. And like I said, they meddled and micromanaged too much and wouldn't let their shows develop organically. They did a lot of damage to the first-run syndication market.

 

[Broccoli]

I wonder about the amount of influence Okie had on early EFC, mainly because everything I have read on the show suggests that David Kirshner was the one Majel Roddenberry hired to develop EFC for then-modern audiences, while Paul Gertz served as head writer on the series during that time (not to say that Okie and fellow executive producer Seaton McLean didn't contribute to the developmental/writing process).

What I read at the time the show was in development and production was that Okie was the head guy responsible for reworking it. Kirschner was Majel R.'s production partner, but Okie was the actual writer the two of them brought in to revise the pilot and the premise. Kirschner has only one writing credit on the entire series, as co-writer of episode 18 along with Paul Gertz.

True. A TV Guide article dated from July 1997 which previewed EFC (geek alert: yes, I still have the issue) highly suggests that Kirschner developed the show into what we got (at least within the first season) with quotes by MBR saying how much Kirshner reminded her of Gene Roddenberry including they way they talked and held themselves, and that was one of the reasons she was drawn to him to undertake the project. Now, how much of that is true versus implied I do not know.

He could have been a Rick Berman-type where he set the stage at the beginning and oversaw things, but mainly let others push the direction. I don't know. I'm just speculating here with what I know.

And Gertz is the one I understood to be Okie's replacement as showrunner. He evidently created Zo'or (at least, he was credited as the writer of Zo'or's first episode), and I always saw Zo'or's introduction as the beginning of the dumbing down of the show, because he was the first outright "evil" Taelon.

Zo'or didn't really get evil until the third season. He was first played as opportunistic and a bit of a dick, but he didn't do anything that was outright eeeevil. By season three, he was a mustache-twirling villain.

Was Okie really let go midway though the first season? The only reason question this is because he is credited as executive producer for all 22 first season episodes.

Well, I'm really not sure. That was my understanding, but I can't swear to it. It might be that he increasingly had to share control with Gertz after that point but didn't officially leave until the end of the season. Tribune had a habit of driving out its show developers one way or another. But it's been a few years since I thought about this so my memory is rusty.

You could be right. I really don't know either. On the audio commentary for a couple of the first season episodes, Gertz was referred to as the head writer multiple times. Now, it could be because he eventually did become that in the second season, but I would figure they would specify at least once (especially since Gertz was doing some of the commentaries himself).

The arc was clearly being constantly reinvented as characters were killed off and replaced. Heck, in season 2 they had no idea where they were going; they dabbled in veering into some way-out sci-fi stuff with parallel universes, but quickly abandoned it. So any allegations of having an overall plan are bogus on their face.

The same TV Guide article has Kirshner claiming they have five years planned. Of course, that could have easily have been a buzz word. However, I am somewhat inclined to believe that the overall general arc of the show was pretty much what would have happened anyway (Taelons dying, Jaridians showing up, Resistance making in roads to the government, the joining at the end [with humanity being the missing link]). After rewatching the first season last summer, I noticed a lot of seeds for that stuff.

But, as the examples you gave, the path they took had several, several revisions along the way.

Like I said, the very existence of season 5 was purely a matter of economics. The show was losing money hand over fist, but Tribune believed they had to get to the magic syndication number to have a viable long-term investment, so they made a fifth season that was as cheap as possible, purely as a means of getting what they believed to be the most out of their investment.

I didn't realize the ratings were that bad by the end of season four. Then again, I didn't pay much attention to those things back then.

Quoted for truth. Sure, the show went through a dramatic and tonal change (sometimes jarringly), but it at least followed a mostly-consistent/coherent story arc that came to a natural conclusion (though I do admit to liking the last 2/3s of season two, after the show found its footing again; season three, while not outright bad, was kinda middling).

I didn't see very much of S4, but I don't remember being impressed by it. Maybe it could've been satisfying as a lowbrow sci-fantasy action show, but compared to the intelligence and literacy the show began with, it still seemed idiotic. And Liam, Renee, and Street were pretty weak substitutes for Boone, Lily, and Augur.

Season 4 had a strong direction. They knew what they wanted to do and didn't play around too much. They addressed and resolved a lot of elements of the series to that point, and did so in, what I felt, was a satisfactory way.

 

[Christopher]

Zo'or didn't really get evil until the third season. He was first played as opportunistic and a bit of a dick, but he didn't do anything that was outright eeeevil. By season three, he was a mustache-twirling villain.

I exaggerate, but from the beginning, Zo'or came across as a more overtly antagonistic and unfriendly character, and simply a more humanlike character. I just didn't find him as intriguingly alien as Da'an because he didn't have the same ambiguities and exotic presence. Zo'or's introduction was the beginning of the erosion of the Taelons from something wildly imaginative and unprecedented on television to something more conventional and uninspired.

You could be right. I really don't know either. On the audio commentary for a couple of the first season episodes, Gertz was referred to as the head writer multiple times. Now, it could be because he eventually did become that in the second season, but I would figure they would specify at least once (especially since Gertz was doing some of the commentaries himself).

Well, when were those episodes? My understanding is that Gertz was the head writer for the back half of the first season, replacing Okie.

The same TV Guide article has Kirshner claiming they have five years planned. Of course, that could have easily have been a buzz word.

Yes, there was a five-year plan developed by Okie at the start. He mentioned it in Starlog. But it didn't last.

However, I am somewhat inclined to believe that the overall general arc of the show was pretty much what would have happened anyway (Taelons dying, Jaridians showing up, Resistance making in roads to the government, the joining at the end [with humanity being the missing link]). After rewatching the first season last summer, I noticed a lot of seeds for that stuff.

I've always gotten the sense that the original idea for the mysterious threat the Taelons were awaiting was going to be something far less conventional than the Jaridians, who might as well have been Klingons, just one more warlike humanoid race with latex on their faces. There was a first-season episode where some hints about the mysterious threat began to emerge, and I recall Da'an saying that it was something that humans weren't yet ready to comprehend. No way is that compatible with something as dull as the Jaridians.


Okay, I did some searching on the Ex Isle BBS, whose members include several folks from the Andromeda production staff, TV writers who worked for Tribune and have some inside information. These are my sources for behind-the-scenes E:FC info. I should really wait and do this in the morning, because I'm very sleepy, but I can't let go of something like this until I finish it, so...

Here, former DROM producer Zack Stentz (now a pretty well-known screenwriter) says:

Yup. Okie was the Robert Wolfe of E:FC, except unlike Robert he actually had a Roddenberry pilot script and other materials to work with.

That means that Okie, like Wolfe, was the principal developer and original showrunner.


Ahh, and here's what I was looking for! Another DROM producer participating in a 2005 Ex Isle thread actually contacted Rick Okie and asked him to chime in and answer some questions. His reply:

Hi guys, it's Rick Okie, and yes, I was involved in creating the first half of the first season of EFC, though other forces won out after that. I would agree that the series took off in different directions than were originally intended; I would agree that Tribune's preferences had much to do with the change; I am not surprised that Robert Wolfe experienced a similar left-turn on Andromeda.

As originally conceived, the creators were going for some ground-breaking elements in the creation of Da'an and the Taelons -- based though they were on the original Roddenberry creation. We tried to challenge everything -- worldview, gender, goals and missions - if we could make it alien, we would make it ALIEN.

There was one unforgettable conversation in the Tribune offices where we fought for the concept of Da'an's gender/sexuality as utterly ambiguous and capable of mutation depending on the situation. Who knows how many genders the Taelons have? Five? Six? We were told that if there were to be any sexual undertones to the Da'an-Boone relationship, then Da'an was female. Period.

Enigma and mystery were the original goals...and the earliest casualties. I'll try to dredge up more painful memories for future posts.

So yes, Okie himself confirmed that he was effectively out by halfway through the season. Unfortunately, despite that last sentence, this was the only post he made on the BBS, so we didn't get any further answers. But what he says about making things as alien and mysterious as possible argues strongly that the Jaridians, just another stock "warrior race," were a much, much simpler concept than what Okie originally planned the big threat to be.

What Okie said about enigma being the earliest casualty is exactly what I'm saying about the show -- it started out so fascinating and imaginative and unique in its concepts, so completely outside the box, but quickly degenerated into something more conventional.