Trek Vs Babylon 5?

[Methos]

Ok, serious discussion here, not just one is better than the other...

i'm in the middle of writing a fanfic with a Federation ship lost in the B5 universe... i know, not a massively original idea, but i'm running with it and enjoying it lol

Anyway, i'm curious to know how other people think a Federation ship, namely the Aventine (Vesta Class) would cope in the B5 universe against the threats there...

Basically, i can figure on the Aventine having superior technology over the Earth Alliance, Narn, Centauri and League of non-aligned worlds... i typically think of the Aventine technology being around Minbari level tech... if a bit lower...

Ships like the White Star, Vorlon, Shadows and other First Ones definitely outclass the Aventine... though the White Star only in some departments, as it's mix of Minbari and Vorlon tech seems unstable to say the least...

So how would the Aventine match up do you think? How would the warp drive or slipstream drive interact with the nature of Hyperspace in the B5 universe...

thoughts?

I'll be posting the fic here soon when i've got a good portion of it written...

M

 

[MacLeod]

Well Warp Drive and the hyperspace techs are totally different. It is unlikely that either side could detect each other when using either.

FTL sensors does the B5 universe have them.
Shields how much punishment can they take.

Transporters could give a tactical advantage.

 

[Methos]

well Hyperspace in the B5 universe is described as being a 'tidal' area... with eddies, funnels, rifts and such... so the thought of using warp within hyperspace could be quite disasterous...

outside of Hyperspace, Trek has the obvious speed avantage... though there is only one race in B5 with shield technology, though the Shadows and Vorlons never displayed it, it's likely they have it as well...

likewise with transporter tech, it's not something the B5 races have access to either...

M

 

[Reverend]

^What the B5 universe does have however is stealth technology. Assuming for a second it can defeat Trek sensors (could go either way) you can't transport to a location you can't lock onto, so boarding Minbari or the hybrid ships is probably out.

As for defences, remember that the hulls of Vorlon ships, as well as the Excalibur and the White Stars refracts most of the energy from energy weapons, leaving only the physical impact. So phasers may be utterly useless since I don't think they have a physical component like a plasma based weapon would. Also remember that Earth ships use interceptors and point defence screens that can counter projectiles (like torpedoes) as well as heavy laser beams.

If this ship somehow found it's way into hyperspace then they'd need to figure out very quickly not to stray off the tachyon beacons, else they'd get completely lost. Even First Ones need beacons to navigate(though theirs are weaker as their sensors are that much more sensitive.) Then there's the little matter of getting out into normal space. Without a jump drive they'd be dependent on the gates and even then they'd have to figure out how to activate them. Though gates have coded activation sequences for entering hyperspace, the exit code is unencrypted for safety reason, still, they don't use subspace radio and it may take a Federation crew some time to figure out that they're operating on normal radio signals.

They might be able to figure a way to create something akin to a jump point with the main deflector, but they'd probably need to capture, or get a *very* detailed scan of a working unit to reverse engineer it and doing so should (for narrative reasons) cack up it's normal function and prevent them from using warp drive in normal space.

 

[Methos]

yeah i definitely agree there with the hulls section... the Vorlon ships reflect energy weapons away, like the White Star... not actually sure about Shadow vessels, but it's safe to say they act on the same principals...

In Hyperspace i agree as well, sensors would be limited due to the subspace eddies and tides there... since it isn't a 'flat' region like normal space, i see it more like the Briar Patch with distortions and tides, i think Warp would be extremely limited there and dangerous, it would be a risk to go to anything above Warp 1 or 2 i'd think personally...

The jump gates and beacon system are all using tachyon pulses and activation sequences... now we know Federation Starships can use tachyon communications, they used them several times in Voyager with the Hirogen array (I believe...), also i'm pretty sure in Pathfinder it was said the Astrometric's arrays can send and receive Tachyon transmissions, that's how Barcley got in touch with Voyager...

I agree that it will definitely take some time for them to decrypt the hyperspace gates though...

As for a jump engine... i don't see it working with Federation tech whatsoever... only have jump engines in their capital ships, with ships in the Star Trek universe, say Sovereign class or Vesta Class, being smaller than the White Star, i would think it would be a push to engineer one into the ship... the Jump Engine on the White Star was huge, stretching out of view in the ship when they used it as a background on a walk through... without tearing out HUGE sections of the saucer and rooms inside, i don't see them fitting it in a Federation ship at all...

M

 

[The Green Mushroom]

I think the key is faster than light travel--a Federation starship has it while ships in the B5 universe essentially do not.

What I mean by that is this: in order to travel fast enough to make interstellar travel possible, B5 ships have to go into hyperspace using either a gate or a massive and energy consuming jump engine. A Star Trek type ship just needs to turn its warp engine on and it effectively just starts going really, really fast.

What I think this means is that a Federation starship would have every advantage in combat. It could maneuver around the battlefield using its warp engines and literally run circles around anything that the B5 universe has. It also has warp powered photon torpedoes that might be very hard to get away from--unless B5 has much faster standard propulsion than I am aware of. I cannot see anyone's fighters (except maybe MAYBE the Shadows) getting close to your Aventine and making much of a dent in the shields. That means that the capital ships would need to close in to take out the Aventine--which makes them even more exposed to torpedoes and warp speed flanking.

And does anyone in B5 have a tractor beam?

 

[Methos]

Tractor beams are shown on the White Star ships and Minbari ships... though i don't remember ever seeing them on Narn, Centauri or Earth Alliance ships... i'd have to double check that though...

Shadow's generally don't use Tractor beams, as their ships are organic in nature, they sort of 'shift' to a 'jelly' like state to envelop the ship needed, and then fly away with the smaller ship captured inside... weird way of doing it and quite unique to the B5 universe lol

As for speed, it's a bit of a 'hit and miss' really with Babylon 5 ships...

The White Star is the fastest ship around of the normal races... not including Vorlons, Shadows or other First Ones... maxing out at around .8 of light speed... so it's safe to say the rest of the advanced ships, like the Minbari and Centauri, max out around .6 of lightspeed... with the Earth Alliance, Narn and Non-Alligned races pulling in about .3 or .4 of lightspeed...

Warp is a bit step up for normal space, as is shielding technology... thats one that none of the middle born races have... with the Shadow's only having used it once in the books, and not on their ships or bases...

One thing i do plan on using is the Quantum Slipstream Drive, which is a drastically different piece of technology than anything in the B5 universe... along with Quantum Torpedoes which are a big step up from most B5 race weapons...

M

 

[Methos]

oh, another thing the Federation ship has at it's disposal than most ships in the B5 universe don't, is the capability to enter atmospheres...

That's a big no-no for most races without using smaller shuttles to ferry between... the Shadow's are the only race that have shown the ability to land their capital ships on planets... it's even used once with a battle when Sheridan took the White Star into a gas giant and it was noted that even the White Star can't operate well within an atmosphere

M

 

[Reverend]

Well firstly, in the B5 universe, hyperspace isn't like the Briar patch at all, it's essentially a parallel universe all of it's own. All of that weird swirly business aren't gas clouds but very densely layered wrinkles, knots and vortices in the very fabric of space-time (some of which read as solid.) Given that in Trek warp drive is supposed to work by stretching and compressing space-time around the ship, trying to do so in hyperspace would probably be akin to paddling a canoe in a typhoon, on a sea of hydrochloric acid. Bad idea, unless you want the ship to turn itself inside-out. Add to that the fact that IIRC impulse engines work on a similar principle, travel in hyperspace with anything other than thrusters may be out of the question altogether.

Secondly, once inside hyperspace a B5 ship can easily out-pace a Trek ship at warp in normal space. Though JMS was careful not to get into specifics, it's pretty clear on the show that known space stretches across most of the galaxy and few hyperspace journeys last more than a few days at a stretch. Indeed, ships spend more time covering the relatively short distances between gates in normal space than they do crossing dozens of light-years in hyperspace.

Add to that the element of surprise; there's no detecting an enemy ship or fleet in hyperspace from normal space until it opens a jump point (with a high degree of pinpoint accuracy in the case of the Minbari) then the playing field is a tad more level.

Also, it should be pointed out that a White Star's top speed is no different than any other ship. Any ship can get up to near relativistic speeds, the difference is in acceleration. In that regard, a gravitic drive equipped ship could probably outpace an impulse engine in normal space.

As for getting into planetary atmospheres, remember that only the clunky Earth warships have that limitation. We've seen Shadow vessels, Centauri warships and White Stars operate perfectly well at very low altitudes. It's a fair bet that Vree saucers are also quite capable, plus of course the numerous atmospheric capable fighters from the various races. That plus the planetary defence grids are known to have particle beams with enough fire power to blast whole continents. Advantage home team.

 

[Methos]

thanks for those thoughts...

i described hyperspace as The Briar Patch because of the distortions and eddies, not for any atmosphere or gas clouds... i was just likening it because of the way i believe it would severley hamper any ships that weren't designed to fly through it...

Yes, i agree that Hyperspace easily outpaces warp

I was taking cues about the speed from the B5 technical manual, where it states the speed of the White Star cleanly and marks that is it faster than any other ship once the First Ones had left known space... it doesn't give exact speeds for the earth and minbari ships, though i can probably find those from the RPG books... But i do agree that most B5 ships could outpace Impulse Drive any day of the week...

Thanks for the thoughts on atmospheres... can you mark where Centrauri warships have entered an atmosphere? I've been trying to find things like this and thought it was a standard that most capital sized ships couldn't enter atmospheres...

M

 

[Blip]

Some points, to the best of my knowledge -- if anyone sees a blatant error let me know!!


1) I think someone mentioned upthread that the Sovereign is smaller than a Whitestar - as far as I know that's not the case?

Hyperspace Travel
2) IIRC, Impulse Drive uses field coils to either -depending on what theory you subscribe to- accelerate the plasma to an uber-speed so as to increase the propulsive force, or reduce the mass of the ship by generating a subspace field around it. I expect this would be equally viable in either version for Hyperspace, but that the big worry would be the gravimetric eddies/distortions, etc which would be dangerous for higher Impulse speeds. I also suspect those distortions would make the generation of full-on Warp Fields to be difficult at best, and disastrous at worst!

Normal Space Travel
3) Warp Drive is of course FTL, and as I recall Impulse Drive can accelerate to near-relativistic speeds before time dilation effects become noticeable. That doesn't mean it can't however. Both would be pretty useful against the "home team" I suspect - especially since most (if not all) B5 races probably don't have FTL sensors.

Weapons
4) Photon Torpedoes and their ilk are accelerated to warp or near-warp speeds by the launcher apparatus. As such, they would be near-impossible for most B5 races to track and destroy since (per above) they don't tend to have FTL sensors. Not sure on Phasers -- I'd expect they would do some damage to the bio-crystalline hulls, but only sustained blasts would create sufficient damage? Personally I'd start off by launching a few Photons to breach the outer hull, then follow up with Phaser strikes...

Communications
5) Given the apparently advanced computing/encrypting capabilities we've seen from TNG onwards (particularly in Voyager), I can't imagine they'd have too much trouble deciphering and utilising the tachyon-based systems in the B5 'verse.

Power
6) Trek vessels tend to utilise M/A power sources, with Fusion as a backup or for smaller-scale requirements. Most B5 races appear to still be using Fusion as their primary method, though the First Ones are probably better off?

Transporter Tech
7) As has been pointed out, this would be a great advantage over most races, but IIRC the Vree had something similar? If the timeframe is after the Shadow War and the founding of the Alliance, they may be persuaded to share said technology with the other races.

Uh, that's it from me - although I've also had some kind of memory of the Ent-D using a warp shell to briefly accelerate it when a consistent warp field couldn't be sustained, sometime during TNG? Although I suspect the problem of gravimetric distortions (that old chestnut!) would be a critical risk, could they maybe do this in a pinch in Hyperspace?

So, yes. Hope that helps!

 

[Methos]

sorry, my bad, the Soverign class is longer inlcuding the nacelles by quite a bit...

I automatically don't think of those when thinking of ship size as they're not an area that is very useful to the interior size of the ship...

in order then...

1. agreed... warp in hyperspace is bad lol... i'd stick to low warp if anything, 2 or 3 max... and thats with a damn good helmsman to manually regulate the warp field against the distortions...

2. No, none of the 'young' races (Humans, Minbari and the like) have any form of FTL sensors at all

3. Photons and Phasers... yeah the Minbari and First Ones hulls are stupidly hard to breach, using a mixture of crystalline tech (Minbari) or biological tech (Vorlons / shadows and such) that reflects and absorbs energy weapons...

3a... worth noting that some of the younger races, specifically the Centauri, are noted for using Ion weapons and only in the 2nd season start to investigate plasma based weapons... they still use 'mass drivers' to pick up 'meteors' in space and accellorate them towards their targets, normally planets lol

5. Comminications yeah, agreed... translating tachyon signals is nothing for any advanced ship...

6. Power... yeah Antimatter is way above most of the other races... not sure what the minbari use, but the Earth alliance and Narn definitely still use fusion based power supplies, as does the B5 station itself...

7. Transporter tech... I don't remember the Vree having access to transporter tech, have to doublecheck that around as i'm pretty sure none of the younger races had anything like it...

My time frame is actually before the Shadow war, just as the human war with Clarke is kicking off... think beginning of season 3 before the Shadows have been identified...

M

 

[Blip]

Ah, just when they started to get "interesting" then!

Can I recommend taking a gander at the "A Thin Veneer" crossover fic (currently languishing) on Fanfiction.net? It may prove useful -- though it takes place during the Earth-Minbari war, rather than during B5 proper...

 

[Methos]

yeah i know the Thin Veneer fic... i've talked to the author several times in the past about it...

fic talk, i'd also reccomend Destinies Child and stargate: Thirdspace by AndrewJamesWilliams...

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1998434/1/Destinys_Child_Version_20

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6408112/1/Stargate_Thirdspace_Version_2

Destinies Child is Trek meets Stargate... pretty well done as well...

Thirdspace is Stargate meets Babylon 5... extremely well done

M

 

[Methos]

and just some quick art for my upcoming fic...

it's on 23,840 words currently for the first chapter... thinking of trailing off about 25,000 before posting...

M

 

[Reverend]

In no particular order: -

As far as I'm aware there is no equivalent to transporter tech in the B5 'verse. Likewise with FTL sensors, though they do have real-time communications across the galaxy by way of linked tachyon relay stations transmitting through hyperspace.

Centauri ships were seen flying over the palace in season 5 when the Regent was on the war path. G'Kar noted he had seen this view of their ships before and didn't like it anymore then as now.

I'd be careful about where you get your information regarding weapons specs, speeds and other technical stats as very little actual canon info exists. The Security Manual was full of fluff, in-jokes and made up stuff so not terribly reliable, while the RPGs are basically considered to be licensed fan fiction. About the only canon source besides the scripts is the old 'Official Guide to Babylon 5' CD ROM. Try the B5 Project wiki, it's pretty good about citing sources.

A small note on mass drivers: they're NOT the standard armament of the Centauri (or any race for that matter.) They're outlawed weapons of mass destruction as their only function as weapons is to cause widespread destruction and massive civilian casualties. Though it may seem crude, meteor impacts impart a *lot* of kinetic energy.

 

[Methos]

yeah i've been using the B5 Wiki pretty thoroughly, and the B5 Tech Guide, which again is a very well thought out set of information...

cheers for that, i'll have to doublecheck season 5 now lol

M

 

[Reverend]

^Just did a quick search and that scene was in 'And All My Dreams Torn Asunder', about 3/4 of the way through.

 

[Rulius]

A Federation Starship would probably not have much trouble with EA or any of the other worlds of the Interstellar Alliance. Minbari might be a problem, but still none of these races has a warp capable ship- meaning a starship could run around them at warp 1.5 and shoot away. Over at B5 Tech the guy who runs the forum thinks the Omega would give the Defiant a problem. He wrote a fanfic about that, and I really think the Defiant would plaster an Omega with out any problem. Now Vorlon or Shadow is another ballgame entirely..

 

[Reverend]

^Depends on the situation. Depends on the people. Superior technology doesn't automatically equal a win.

This just occurred to me though; given that warp drive (and to a lesser extent, impulse drive) works by manipulating subspace (a fictional dimension within, or parallel to our space-time) would the technology even work at all in B5's (equally fictional) depiction of hyperspace? Subspace may not even exist in B5's universe at all, let alone in hyperspace. A Trek ship may find themselves dead in the water even in normal space.

Even if that's not the case then I would still seriously advise against *any* warp travel inside hyperspace. In B5, all ships, even in hyperspace travel at sub-relativistic speeds and while in hyperspace they follow linked beacons from one jumpgate to the next. If a ship is travelling along a beacon at even warp 1 (lightspeed) then they're almost certain to overshoot the jumpgate terminus and go zooming off into open hyperspace, whereupon they will loose the beacon and instantly find themselves lost. Even worse, with out jump engines they won't even be able to open up a point and blind jump back into normal space.