Timelines of the Doctor: The Daleks

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Hello, and welcome to the first of the Timelines of the Doctor threads, a continuity thread where we try to figure out in what chronological sequence did the various long-running and recurring enemies of the Doctor have appeared, relative to their own timelines.

I freely admit I was inspired of the idea for this thread by doctorwhotv.co.uk's Continuity of the Daleks article that went up a couple of days ago, and as such, I suggest we start wtih the Doctor's most infamous, and fated enemy: The Daleks!

We all know their debut story - 1963's The Daleks, by Terry Nation. However, that surely was not the first Dalek story, chronology-wise, right? Genesis of the Daleks, more than likely constitutes as the first-ever, earliest appearence of them in the timeline.

In what order would you put the rest of the Dalek stories? I would much rather we focused on TV and BF medium, since they're more canon than others, and also because of the audiovisual aspect... So, what do you think?

 

[publiusr]

Remembrance is pretty close to the end. Skaro looks to be destroyed. The Evil Of The Daleks could be thought of as being both before and after this, assuming Davos became that Emporer--but Terror Firma contradicts this.

I'd really like to think Evil was the last page of Dalek history...

 

[Guy Gardener]

In Dalek Invasion of Earth, the Doctor explained that the events of the Daleks was millions of years in the future.

IAN: Doctor, I don't understand this at all. We saw the Daleks destroyed on Skaro. We were there.
DOCTOR: My dear boy, what happened on Skaro was a million years ahead of us in the future. What we're seeing now is about the middle history of the Daleks.
IAN: I see. They certainly look different, don't they.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Yeah, but did the First Doctor know of the Time War, then? I really doubt it - especially when sounds so surprised that they're hunting him down in The Chase later in the season.

 

[Guy Gardener]

When Jack said that one day that the Daleks disappeared in the 51st century, I found this odd since the Doctor thought that the Daleks had already disappeared and were never coming back in 2005, even though they were supposed to invade the Earth in 2157...

At first I thought that the Daleks native to any particular timezone, cluncking around with ancient or bad tech, are practically a different species from the godlike time travelling Dalek who fought the Time War. So there are still Daleks out there evolving and growing up towards a point that they will enter the Time War and be finished by it... It's like would you Kill baby Hitler?

Which still didn't fit well until I saw a paradox machine. The Daleks in need of reinforcements, took manpower, Dalekpower from their own past and then folded up time so that all the Daleks fom the 51st century can fight and die in the time War while the Daleks of the 52nd century stay exactly where they have always been unperturbed that their personal timelines are being butchered as the Daleks in the time war are now drawing further newer reinforcements form the 49th and 48th centuries.

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

In the 80s there was a book called "The Ultimate Doctor Who and the Daleks Book", which took a stab at putting a chronological history to the Daleks. In general it mucks around quite a bit, but then around "Destiny of the Daleks" it settles into keeping roughly parallel to the Doctor's own timeline. This I keep in line with my personal notion that once a race develops time travel to a certain degree, they tend to come into a parallel continuum with others of that level (i.e. the time lords) and events between the two happen in the same-ish timeline from that point forward. This results in the Daleks and Gallifrey being put inevitably on course towards the Last Great Time War.

Anyway, the book posits that the "end" of the Daleks was still their end on Skaro in "Evil of the Daleks", as perpetuated by the Second Doctor, which in turn took place after Tom Baker's "Destiny", Davison's "Resurrection" and Colin Baker's "Revelation" chronologically. Fandom at the time posited that Davros took control after that for "Rememberance", and his fancy new race of Daleks, and things continued on through various novelized / Big Finish adventures for the Seventh and Eighth Doctor adventures.

Then Time War. Everything after that is roughly chronological with the Doctor's own timeline as they share the same continuum together and as such will meet each other roughly after the last time, no matter where in time and space they are, just like the Master and various other Time Lords always do.

Mark

 

[Guy Gardener]

Lets reflect that there are timelines A and timelines B present for before Genesis of the Daleks and after Genesis of the Daleks.

The Movellians, and the Dalek Civil War (and the plague probably?) tied up the Daleks for 10s of millennia in time line B, that we saw no evidence of happening in timeline A.



And then there's the destruction of Skaro in Remembrance that didn't seem to reflect the stellar cartography of the Movie.

Same name, different planet?

New Skaro? New, New, New Skaro? New, New, New, New, New, New, Skaro?

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

*shrug& mucking about in time can resurrect planets and civilizations. The Time War establishes they were doing it all the time, and there's nothing to say that this can't happen outside of the War as well. I'm sure there could have been many alternate timelines where things could have been done, undone or even redone. Not to make the destruction of Skaro irrelevant though. Various works of prose have suggested that the Doctor destroyed a decoy meant to fool both him AND Davros' faction:

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Skaro

Mark

 

[The Badger]

Normally only massive stars can go supernova. Even with the Hand Of Omega triggering it, a smaller star, like ours or Skaro's, might not have enough mass to cause as much damage. I have no trouble accepting that the explosion seen in Remembrance was powerful enough to devastate Skaro and wipe out the Imperial faction, but not totally destroy the world. It could then have been recolonized by the remaining Dalek forces.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Catching up with some Pertwee stories before I can devise a Dalek chronology based on BBC/BF material. Until then, here's a rough estimation of the stories they're in, per Doctor, "broadcast"-wise. Hope you like it (bold for BBC):

The Daleks
The Dalek Invasion of Earth
The Chase
The Destroyers
Mission to the Unknown/The Dalek's Masterplan

Power of the Daleks
Evil of the Daleks
Fear of the Daleks

Day of the Daleks
Frontier in Space/Planet of the Daleks
Death to the Daleks

Genesis of the Daleks
Energy of the Daleks
The Dalek Contract/The Final Phase
Destiny of the Daleks

The Mutant Phase
Renaissance of the Daleks
Plague of the Daleks
The Elite
The Five Companions
Resurrection of the Daleks

Davros
Revelation of the Daleks
The Apocalypse Element
Jubilee
The Curse of Davros
The Juggernauts

Remembrance of the Daleks
The Genocide Machine
Enemy of the Daleks
Daleks Among Us
Return of the Daleks

Time of the Daleks
Terror Firma
The Four Doctors
Brotherhood of the Daleks (Sixth Doctor with Charley)
Patient Zero (Sixth Doctor with Charley)
Blood of the Daleks
Lucie Miller/To the Death
Dark Eyes
Dark Eyes 2

And then NuWho, as we've seen it. What do you think?

 

[Candlelight]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/episodeguide/dalekhistory1.shtml

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/episodeguide/dalekhistory2.shtml

 

[diankra]

To work anything out, you have to make a few gut calls:
Do you ignore the 'Wiped out at the end of the first story ' and the DIOE 'It was milions of years into the future' comment (answer, probably yes.)
Is Evil of the Daleks the final end, or not. If not, then is the deserted Skaro of Destiny the aftermath of Evil (I tend to this...).
Are Daleks time travellers in stories where they're not specifically stated to be time travellers? (My gut feeling is no in pre 1990 stories, but in new series stories it can be taken as standard).

So... the onscreen' facts' are...
The Daleks: in the future (Edge fo Destruction implies this). Generations before 2540 (Frontier in Space). 2263 has become an accepted fan date.
Dalek Invasion of Earth: several years after 2164 (2170s?), but not more than a generation. Probably before the previous story.
The Chase (TT): No idea for the Dalek hometime, but possibly circa Dalek Masterplan. But maybe not.
Mission/Masterplan: Definitely 4000AD, give or take a bit for Mission, but the Daleks have time travel. The Daleks have been out of Earth;s space for a good thousand years.
Power: 2020 according to fan lore from PR at the time, but nothign stated onscreen.
Evil: Again, no idea on the Daleks' hometime: they have time travel, but a different method to Chase/Masterplan, closer to the one in day/Resurrection/Remembrance.
Day of the Daleks: 22nd century. But explicitly and very importantly said to be time travellers throughout.
Frontier/Planet: Definitely 2540. No sign of time travel onscreen.
Death to the Daleks: a generation after a Dalek war. No other info.
Genesis: No info, but at least a thousand years before any other Dalek story. Depends on whether history is changed here.
Destiny: No info, though maybe after Evil. The script for Resurrection suggests a date...
Resurrection: Dalek hometime is the 4300s according the the script, but this is not stated onscreen. Still, room for Evil and Destiny to have happend after Masterplan if you want to play it like that. Daleks have Time Travel, but not the Masterplan/Chase ships so far as we see.
Revelation: After Resurrection.
Remembrance: After Revelation. Again, it's the Day/Evil/etc style of time travel.

And then we have the Time War, where the Daleks seem to have time travel as a routine operation in all their ships, and even some individual Daleks.

Bit of a mess (and no, sorry, can't be bothered with books and Big Finish). I tend to go with...

Genesis
Power: anywhere from the 2000s to the 2300s.
DIOE: 2170s.
Day: Plan B after DIOE; or possibly much later, around Evil.
Daleks: 2260s.
Frontier/Planet: 2540.
Death: a generation or so after 2540.
Masterplan/Mission/Chase: 4000ish. And all the Dalek annual stuff and the other IDF/SSS/Destructors stuff comes here too.
Evil: A bit after. Possibly Day comes here, if we assume that Masterplan was a major blow, so the Daleks were increasingly desperate, and reduced to using primitive time travel rather than the almost TARDIS-like ships of the Chase/Masterplan.
Destiny, Resurrection, Revelation, Remembrance: the next few centuries.

And then the Time War could come anywhere...

 

[Candlelight]

Power: 2020 according to fan lore from PR at the time, but nothign stated onscreen.

The trailer was onscreen!

:P

 

[diankra]

Voiceover on the trailer, so pedantically, not actually onscreen, just onair. :-) [Irritant mode off] And the DIOE trailers state clear that it's the year 2000, whatever the in-story evidence might imply!

 

[Candlelight]

Voiceover on the trailer, so pedantically, not actually onscreen, just onair. :-) [Irritant mode off] And the DIOE trailers state clear that it's the year 2000, whatever the in-story evidence might imply!

Stop bringing facts and previous examples into this argument!

 

[publiusr]

Anyway, the book posits that the "end" of the Daleks was still their end on Skaro in "Evil of the Daleks", as perpetuated by the Second Doctor, which in turn took place after Tom Baker's "Destiny"

I still rather like that for an ending--although I saw a Dalek timeline that had a cross-over with Lovecraftian entities that spanned eons.

O/TThe way I explain the current cybermen is that the Earth 2 cybermen from the second series joined with the Mondas/Earthshock cybermen, and a hybrid resulted.

 

[Enterprise1701]

Anyway, the book posits that the "end" of the Daleks was still their end on Skaro in "Evil of the Daleks", as perpetuated by the Second Doctor, which in turn took place after Tom Baker's "Destiny"

I still rather like that for an ending--although I saw a Dalek timeline that had a cross-over with Lovecraftian entities that spanned eons.

O/TThe way I explain the current cybermen is that the Earth 2 cybermen from the second series joined with the Mondas/Earthshock cybermen, and a hybrid resulted.

I'm curious. I don't mean to insult your reasoning or anything as I subscribe to this idea as well, but how do you explain how Cybus and Mondasian Cybermen could have joined forces if all Cybus Cybermen were sucked into the Void in "Doomsday" and then into the Time Vortex in "The Next Doctor"? I'm not completely clear on that.

On the matter of the Daleks, I have a question to pose to you guys. So the Daleks obviously have time travel capabilities. Does that mean that in episodes like "The Stolen Earth"/"Journey's End", the Daleks featured in the episodes, set in 2009, simultaneously existed with their predecessors who were elsewhere in the universe? Or what about "The Time of the Doctor"? The Daleks in that episode seemed to be "caught up" with all the events of previous episodes. Is this possible because they existed far enough in the future for everything to have happened already or because they were time travelers avoiding interfering with their predecessors who were located elsewhere?

 

[publiusr]

I think some stragglers from Silver Nemesis visited the other timeline somehow.

The fast speed we saw in "Nightmare in Silver" seems to indicate that they finally bested the Raston robot--and now have its ability: http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Raston_Warrior_Robot

Yikes.