Theoretical question Re: Enterprise-D Destruction

[The Fatman]

I asked this in a thread in the TNG forum about the D's destruction, and it didn't really get any responses so I thought I'd post it here:

Theoretically, if the D's stardrive section blew up as shown in Generations but the saucer made it out OK, what would have happened next?

Would Starfleet have given Picard a new stardrive section to complete his ship? Are the Galaxy class saucers even interchangeable like that? Would this new ship still be the Enterprise-D, or would the new stardrive make it a whole new ship, becoming the Enterprise-E?

 

[diankra]

I asked this in a thread in the TNG forum about the D's destruction, and it didn't really get any responses so I thought I'd post it here:

Theoretically, if the D's stardrive section blew up as shown in Generations but the saucer made it out OK, what would have happened next?

Would Starfleet have given Picard a new stardrive section to complete his ship? Are the Galaxy class saucers even interchangeable like that? Would this new ship still be the Enterprise-D, or would the new stardrive make it a whole new ship, becoming the Enterprise-E?

If we take the Technical Manual as canon, then Starfleet built six Galaxies, and stored parts for six more (akin to NASA storing a full set of Shuttle spares that later became Endeavour).
I'd assume that (unless the Enterprise saucer was badly damaged) they'd construct the parts for a new stardrive and attach it to the E-D saucer. (That leaves a spare set of saucer parts, but potentially Starfleet might face the opposite problem: a lost saucer and an intact stardrive).
I doubt the ship would be renamed/numbered: if a major part of the original survives and is put back into service, then it's still the same ship (though this is a bit like the old philosophical conundrum about Theseus's Ship - or grandad's axe).

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think there was a line in the TNG Tech Manual that said if the saucer lands on a planet--presumably with Earth-normal gravity--it was pretty much done for. How the saucer landed in Generations was presumably the best-case scenario for such a situation.

If the separation took place in deep space, however, and the saucer was able to be safely recovered, I personally think they'd simply decommission it and write it off as salvage. I don't believe Starfleet would build a new stardrive section for the Enterprise-D. I think Starfleet would still simply commission another vessel as the Enterprise-E and have the Enterprise-D saucer be used as the primary hull for a later nameless or renamed kitbash ship with other salvaged ship components (at that point, it would no longer be the Enterprise-D anyway).

 

[Penta]

Or, more fittingly, like the philosophical conundrum that the USS Constitution (yes, the one floating in Boston Harbor) presents, or will in a few years.

See, over time, the Navy has had to replace the timbers and nails of Constitution with replacements - more and more as time goes on.

Which eventually raises the question: When does Old Ironsides quit being the oldest warship still afloat and in commission, and just a replica?

(I do not know the answer to this question. However, I do recall that when she sailed under her own power in 1997, it was a serious question.)

 

[Finn]

^or did?

 

[C.E. Evans]

Or, more fittingly, like the philosophical conundrum that the USS Constitution (yes, the one floating in Boston Harbor) presents, or will in a few years.

See, over time, the Navy has had to replace the timbers and nails of Constitution with replacements - more and more as time goes on.

Which eventually raises the question: When does Old Ironsides quit being the oldest warship still afloat and in commission, and just a replica?

(I do not know the answer to this question. However, I do recall that when she sailed under her own power in 1997, it was a serious question.)

At that point it becomes a level of documentation that the USS Constitution was never decommissioned even if the ship that bears her name doesn't contain any of components of the original ship, IMO.

In a way it would almost mirror the situation between the TOS Enterprise and the TMP Enterprise. Both are considered the same ship, even though pretty much every component of her original design was changed/replaced during her refit. Starfleet documented that she was still USS Enterprise, NCC-1701 afterward...

 

[Mister_Atoz]

I know this is a little off topic, but when I was a kid, my Dad took me to see 'Old Ironsides' and I remember having this same discussion with him about whether it could be considered the same ship even after all these years.

I didn't understand what he was trying to tell me back then, but I guess I'm getting sentimental in my old age (pushing 25 ) and understand now what he was trying to tell me back then.

A ship is more than the sum of its parts, even if you replace every single nail, every single crew it's "essence' it's "soul" is still there for those of us who like to think of a ship that way.

Afterall, the cells in our bodies are continuously being replaced, every single cell in our bodies has been replaced many, many times over through the course of our lives but we are still considered to be the same person.

There was a Canadian destroyer in WWII that was rammed and literally ripped in half. The stern section sank, but the bow section was hauled back to port where it was rebuilt and served the rest of its days as the same ship.

In regards to Enterprise-D, I would still consider it the same ship even if the secondary hull was an entirely new creation. However, if I know engineers they love to redesign things, and I'm sure the design of the connection mechanisms evolved over the years.

 

[SpyOne]

An important question here is "Does Starfleet even want more Galaxy Class ships?"

If the answer is "Yes", then an intact saucer is a head-start on a whole new ship, and she'll get a replacement stardrive section. I personally think the ship would carry the same registry number, but it might be commissioned as a whole new ship, or it might have the original number on the saucer and a "-A" on the stardrive hull. Which would be kinda cool, but probably wouldn't happen.

If the answer is "No", then they will take the opportunity to take that ship out of service, either mothballing the saucer or selling it for salvage, or maybe turning it into part of some Starbase or something.

Enough Galaxy Class ships appeared on DS9 to suggest that they probably assembled those spare parts ships, and/or built more than the original 6, but how many they built, and whether they ever built more, are open questions. It does kinda seem like the Federation decided that the Galaxy Class had too many eggs in one basket. If you replace it with 2 smaller ships, one can be handling a medical emergency while the other is ferrying diplomats somewhere.

Oh, and yes, the Galaxy Class design is almost certainly standardized at least to the point that anybody's saucer can mate to anybody's stardrive. That is, unless a certain ship took some really interesting stress that bent some parts, or something. (It is perfectly possible that one ship got tweaked in a way that now it's saucer will only mate with its stardrive if that's what you need for a story, but as a general rule they were all made the same.)
As an example, the US Navy's USS Wisconsin, though an Iowa Class battleship, is actually slightly longer than all other Iowa Class battleships because an accident badly damaged her bow, and they welded on the bow of the unfinished USS Kentucky as a replacement, and it didn't mate exactly, so the ship is now a bit longer (IIRC, 15 feet). So a Galaxy Class ship could have had a major impact on the saucer section that bent the point where it connects to the stardrive, and the shipyard returned it to functional but didn't get it back to exactly the way it was before: the 2 parts mate because they were bent together, but they won't mate to a normal unit due to the bending.

 

[ngc7293]

One possibility is that the saucer could be "parted out" to Galaxy class ships that need parts from the saucers section. Rather than make new parts they can be taken from the old E-D. Another idea is that the saucer could be a replacement for a badly damaged Galaxy which has an otherwise perfect Stardrive section.

 

[STR]

Or, more fittingly, like the philosophical conundrum that the USS Constitution (yes, the one floating in Boston Harbor) presents, or will in a few years.

See, over time, the Navy has had to replace the timbers and nails of Constitution with replacements - more and more as time goes on.

Which eventually raises the question: When does Old Ironsides quit being the oldest warship still afloat and in commission, and just a replica?

(I do not know the answer to this question. However, I do recall that when she sailed under her own power in 1997, it was a serious question.)

Continuity is an illusion. Your cells divide, die and are shed. Your atoms and composing particles blink in and out of existence constantly. You aren't the same pieces you were yesterday. Or when you started reading my post.

 

[Myasishchev]

Say, what did they do with the saucer that actually crashed? I mean, you wouldn't want a piece of important military hardware just sitting on some barren planet waiting for Romulans to go picking through it.

My guess is that after they finished removing their personal effects, Starfleet bombed it from orbit, then Picard smacked himself on the head for not thinking to do that to Soran in the first place.

 

[Finn]

^I was under the impression that that planet was well inside Federation space since there were stations, outposts and starships around them. The issue is the inhabitants of the fourth planet. When they start sending unmanned and manned missions to that planet, they would find the saucer section if Starfleet left it there.

 

[C.E. Evans]

The Starfleet Corps of Engineers probably came in and cleaned up. They may even have used holographic technology to conceal everything from the natives until every last scrap of the saucer section had been removed from the planet. To eliminate as much evidence that they were there, the CoE might have filled in that huge miles-long gash in the ground the saucer made when it landed, IMO...

 

[Finn]

^why would they use holographic technology? The inhabitants of Veridian IV were pre-industrial. Veridian III would just be one big blob in their most powerful telescope.

 

[Timo]

An important question here is "Does Starfleet even want more Galaxy Class ships?"

I don't think Starfleet would skip the opportunity of using that saucer for something. If it's not for another Galaxy, it could be for Galaxy spares, or for a Nebula, or for some other ship type that uses this type of component. However...

Oh, and yes, the Galaxy Class design is almost certainly standardized at least to the point that anybody's saucer can mate to anybody's stardrive.

I think the interesting thing would be whether the software side of the saucer would be compatible with any other stardrive. Such a complex system might have "grown to accept" only a certain specific partner, and would have to be extensively "re-educated" in order to accept a substitute.

I don't think Starfleet would be in any hurry to commission a new Enterprise to replace the lost one. A new Galaxy would probably be called for, though: we have every reason to think that Starfleet is satisfied with that ship type, since various flashforwards show it in continuing use, and it features big time in the battles of the Dominion War, even forming something of an elite unit in "Sacrifice of Angels" (a "Galaxy wing" is mentioned, and appears to provide the major firepower needed to breach the Cardassian lines after the initial opening is made).

On the issue of whether the saucer would be a total loss at the end of ST:GEN, I vote yes. Whether every saucer landing would end that way, though... I don't think so. The explosion of the stardrive seemed to deprive the saucer of some key assets such as thrust and SIF protection, in addition to resulting in a somewhat premature and unexpectedly uncontrolled atmospheric entry.

On the issue of removing the crashed saucer, I agree there probably wouldn't be any hurry. Starfleet would send a mop-up team to do it with discretion: no flashy orbital bombardment, but rather a quiet dismantling. Interestingly, the fight between the E-D and the BoP, as well as the warp entry of the trio of rescue ships, appears to take place on the sunny side of the planet, making it unlikely that the people of Veridian IV would be able to see anything meaningful near Veridian III against the glare of the local sun...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

^why would they use holographic technology? The inhabitants of Veridian IV were pre-industrial. Veridian III would just be one big blob in their most powerful telescope.

It must be Sunday...

I had the two planets mixed up.

 

[Myasishchev]

^I was under the impression that that planet was well inside Federation space since there were stations, outposts and starships around them. The issue is the inhabitants of the fourth planet. When they start sending unmanned and manned missions to that planet, they would find the saucer section if Starfleet left it there.

Well, it was near enough to Amargosa, which was attacked by Romulans...

The Veridian IV people are a potential problem too, although not an immediate one. (I forget if they said they were early-industrial, which means they're probably 50-100 years from interplanetary capabilities, or pre-industrial, which is meaningless.)

 

[Finn]

If the population growth and development was the same as on our planet, it would put them in where we were during the last millennium B.C. when there were only 130 million people on the planet. According to few sources, there were over 200 million when Jesus walked the Earth.

 

[Dr. Horrible]

A ship is more than the sum of its parts, even if you replace every single nail, every single crew it's "essence' it's "soul" is still there for those of us who like to think of a ship that way.

Mister_Atoz, Trigger agrees with you.