The Two Doctors?

[Timewalker]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Doctor Who has had a much stronger emphasis and focus on the companions, their personal lives and their character development for quite some time now. If Moffat was "doing it wrong", then I guess Davies was too. And Gary Russell, Nicholas Briggs, David Richardson and James Goss over at Big Finish with their extended Evelyn, Ace & Hex, Charley, Lucie, Bernice Summerfield, etc. arcs. Hell, apparently Andrew Cartmel was doing it wrong during the Classic era too with his major focus on Ace in the final two seasons.

That's why I really didn't care for most of the Sylvester McCoy era. The "Angst of Ace" arc just bored me. She wasn't an interesting character to start with, and then ramping it up like that? Monumental snooze.

I have never heard any of the Big Finish audios.

My first exposure to Doctor Who was in the fall of 1982, when the Tom Baker era was being shown on PBS. I started watching it because I met someone in college who was not into Star Trek, was into Doctor Who, and I promised to watch one story (they were shown each weekday, one episode/day) and see if I liked it.

Well, "The Pirate Planet" is not a good introduction to Doctor Who. I nearly turned it off in the first five minutes. But a promise is a promise, so I stuck with it. Thankfully the next story, "The Stones of Blood" was much better; in fact, it's my favorite of the Key to Time season.

Eventually PBS got around to showing the Davison stories, then the first three Doctors, and I got to see the rest of the Baker stories. I saw the Colin Baker stories, too. And when the McCoy stories premiered on PBS, Sylvester McCoy was touring the PBS stations in the U.S. to promote this. A friend from Calgary called me and said, "I've been back in classes for 3 days and I'm bored. Let's go to Spokane this weekend and meet Sylvester McCoy!"

So we did. He was very gracious, and I still have the picture he autographed for me. The tour included a mockup of the TARDIS console room, and Bessie. And I finally got to find out what jelly babies taste like (they're yummy!).

However, few of the actual stories were what I would consider good. It seems that my favorites are ones most other people hate (not sure why "Battlefield" garners so much dislike; I loved that one).

Fast-forward to the 1996 movie... loved Paul McGann. He was perfect. The movie itself was crap, but McGann absolutely nailed the part of the Doctor, and it's such a damn shame he couldn't have had a series out of it.

When nuWho came along, I figured Eccleston was okay, but Rose? No, didn't really care for her. The show started to turn into a soap opera about the companions even then - Rose's job, Rose's mom, Rose's dad, Rose's dumb boyfriends. Well, at least Rose ended up with some version of the Doctor. But I'll be more than glad if we never see her again.

And it just got worse, until finally I was really looking forward to seeing Clara die. When she went into that "Let me be brave" speech, I figured, okay, this is a bit sad... and it turned out to be a GOTCHA!. What a cheat.

So this new Doctor has a very short window of time to impress me. I'll give her a month. If the stories turn out to be anywhere near as stupid as the ones that made me give up on Capaldi, I will walk away with the conclusion that the Classic Era is okay, but nuWho is not really for me (with the exception of a few specific episodes).

 

[OCD Geek]

That's why I really didn't care for most of the Sylvester McCoy era. The "Angst of Ace" arc just bored me. She wasn't an interesting character to start with, and then ramping it up like that? Monumental snooze. [sic] So this new Doctor has a very short window of time to impress me. I'll give her a month. If the stories turn out to be anywhere near as stupid as the ones that made me give up on Capaldi, I will walk away with the conclusion that the Classic Era is okay, but nuWho is not really for me (with the exception of a few specific episodes).

That's fair. In fact, your enjoyment of the standalone serial era and hatred of the arc-based modern era is why I love the show so much. Both styles of Who are so different (and each showrunner and Doctor's eras different still) that someone could easily fall in love with one incarnation of the show and despise another. Even without taking all the Classic, Big Finish and Modern spin-offs into account, Doctor Who already feels like several spin-offs in and of itself. I've described the show to non-Wovians as "Imagine if Adam West's Batman, Michael Keaton's Batman, the Animated Series/Arkham game Batman, Christian Bale's Batman and Ben Affleck's dickheaded murderery Batman were all the same exact Batman. That's Doctor Who."

I have never heard any of the Big Finish audios. [sic] Fast-forward to the 1996 movie... loved Paul McGann. He was perfect. The movie itself was crap, but McGann absolutely nailed the part of the Doctor, and it's such a damn shame he couldn't have had a series out of it.

Dude, if you ever wanted to try it there's so much great Who there. I've actually recently started a guide here on TrekBBS for it. Granted, I've only (mostly) completed the listings and links. The actual guide part is still very much a work in progress. It's a guide to the serials and arcs considered the best by listeners at Goodreads and the review/ratings site The Time Scales. It's got links to the serials that are free on Big Finish's Spotify as well as links (and their prices so you don't go in blind) to purchase them on Big Finish's website. Their first 50 four-part serials (and some other stuff) are free on Spotify, and their first 100 serials are permanently marked down to $2.99 US too.

Tom Baker has a couple more standalone classics. Peter Davison has a quite a few standalone classics. While Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoy's best stuff is mainly arc-based they still have some classic standalones. And you'll be happy to know that Paul McGann's Doctor is alive and well over there. McGann and Colin Baker are considered many fan's favorite Big Finish Doctors, which is really wonderful since they were the two that were never served well story wise by the TV show.

Also, legendary character actor David Warner (Time After Time, Star Trek VI, TNG's "Chain of Command", Time Bandits, The Omen, Titanic) has been terrific as an Alt-Universe Third Doctor that was exiled by the Time Lords in the late '90s instead of the '70s/'80s (and turned by the Time Lords into David Warner instead of Jon Pertwee), resulting in UNIT and the Brig facing all of those post-Web of Fear/The Invasion threats to the planet without him to rather dire results. His original standalone serial with Alt-Brig and later adventures with our universe's Bernice Summerfield are great.

 

[The Wormhole]

Come on now - Rule One. None of these are un-retcon-able. River using up her own regenergy to save him doesn't mean he suddenly has more regenerations of his own. Maybe that's exactly the energy he was giving her back to fix her wrist, but maybe that was the extent of it. Maybe he didn't figure out he was on his last life - that Handy had counted - until he was stuck on Trenzalore for 600 years with nothing to do but face his mortality, and so when he told the Cyber-Controller he could regenerate, he didn't know he was wrong. All stretches perhaps, but I'd rather creatively make it work than insist it's all irreconcilable rubbish.

We know all these things were the result of the writers at the time believing there were still future regenerations left. Indeed, Neil Gaiman has said when he wrote Nightmare in Silver he had no idea about the War Doctor or that the Hand Job regeneration actually counted. And since the War Doctor only came about because Eccleston declined to return for the 50th, the other prior references to regeneration being possible were the result of it being the believed fact, not some grand plan.

You honestly don't thing the 507 thing was just the Doctor having fun and bullshitting Clyde? Moffat has said that RTD liked to use that number - 507 - as his go-to whenever he needed to exaggerate something to a ridiculous degree. That's why he used the number in "The Doctor Falls". There is no way we're supposed to take 507 regenerations seriously.

While the line itself about 507 regenerations might not have been intended to be taken seriously, both RTD and Moffat admitted in 2010 interviews they would rather do away with the limit since everyone knows there will be more than thirteen Doctors anyway.

 

[Timewalker]

That's fair. In fact, your enjoyment of the standalone serial era and hatred of the arc-based modern era is why I love the show so much. Both styles of Who are so different (and each showrunner and Doctor's eras different still) that someone could easily fall in love with one incarnation of the show and despise another. Even without taking all the Classic, Big Finish and Modern spin-offs into account, Doctor Who already feels like several spin-offs in and of itself. I've described the show to non-Wovians as "Imagine if Adam West's Batman, Michael Keaton's Batman, the Animated Series/Arkham game Batman, Christian Bale's Batman and Ben Affleck's dickheaded murderery Batman were all the same exact Batman. That's Doctor Who."

Except they're not all the "same exact." There are some things one Doctor would do that another one wouldn't.

Dude, if you ever wanted to try it there's so much great Who there.

Please don't call me "dude". I'm female.

I've actually recently started a guide here on TrekBBS for it.

Granted, I've only (mostly) completed the listings and links. The actual guide part is still very much a work in progress. It's a guide to the serials and arcs considered the best by listeners at Goodreads and the review/ratings site The Time Scales. It's got links to the serials that are free on Big Finish's Spotify as well as links (and their prices so you don't go in blind) to purchase them on Big Finish's website. Their first 50 four-part serials (and some other stuff) are free on Spotify, and their first 100 serials are permanently marked down to $2.99 US too.

Tom Baker has a couple more standalone classics. Peter Davison has a quite a few standalone classics. While Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoy's best stuff is mainly arc-based they still have some classic standalones. And you'll be happy to know that Paul McGann's Doctor is alive and well over there. McGann and Colin Baker are considered many fan's favorite Big Finish Doctors, which is really wonderful since they were the two that were never served well story wise by the TV show.

I'll consider it. But I'm not much of an audio book fan. I did try some TNG ones (in cassette form), and literally fell asleep - not because it was a bad story, but because that's what happens when I'm basically being "read to".

I will admit to liking David Tennant, for the most part (although some of his stories were pretty dumb). I've long had this crazy idea for a crossover fanfic about his Doctor and Downton Abbey (given that the actress who played Harriet Jones was also a regular on Downton Abbey). I'd love to see Isobel and Violet as companions, for a story or two!

 

[OCD Geek]

Please don't call me "dude". I'm female.

I'm really sorry and didn't mean to offend. I tend to call everyone "dude", but I should really get out of that habit.

I'll consider it. But I'm not much of an audio book fan.

Other than the majority of The Companion Chronicles, they aren't audio books. They're full on audio plays with zero narration featuring full casts, scores and sound effects. I'm not sure if that helps or not with understandably falling asleep just sitting there only listening to something.

Apparently audio plays are still a thing in the UK. Which I guess makes sense in retrospect. I mean, Hitchhikers Guide and Red Dwarf both started out as audio plays. And, unlike here in the States where all the major radio dramas and comedies fled to TV leaving radio for news, sports, music and televangelists and/or conservative talk show hosts, a lot of popular programs stayed on the radio over there and never made the transition. Probably due to that whole TV tax thing. If a lot of people in the States cut out cable due to financial issues, I'm sure a lot of people in the UK cut out TV period due to that tax.

I will admit to liking David Tennant, for the most part (although some of his stories were pretty dumb).

Tennant's only done six one-hour plays so far (Three co-starring Billie Piper and three co-starring Catherine Tate) due to being super busy being David Tennant, but "Death and the Queen" with Donna is really well liked. Big Finish has done a really good job catering to both Classic Who fans and NuWho fans. Since they now have a license from the BBC to use any characters, Doctors or ideas from up until the final episode of Capaldi's era, I'm sure they're just getting started. Well, as much as something that began in 1998 can "just get started" twenty years in.

 

[David cgc]

We know all these things were the result of the writers at the time believing there were still future regenerations left. Indeed, Neil Gaiman has said when he wrote Nightmare in Silver he had no idea about the War Doctor or that the Hand Job regeneration actually counted. And since the War Doctor only came about because Eccleston declined to return for the 50th, the other prior references to regeneration being possible were the result of it being the believed fact, not some grand plan.

I don't think you're putting quite enough weight on the "retroactive" part of the term "retroactive continuity."

 

[jaime]

Except they're not all the "same exact." There are some things one Doctor would do that another one wouldn't.


Please don't call me "dude". I'm female.

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/a-guide-to-big-finish-doctor-who.295175/
I'll consider it. But I'm not much of an audio book fan. I did try some TNG ones (in cassette form), and literally fell asleep - not because it was a bad story, but because that's what happens when I'm basically being "read to".

I will admit to liking David Tennant, for the most part (although some of his stories were pretty dumb). I've long had this crazy idea for a crossover fanfic about his Doctor and Downton Abbey (given that the actress who played Harriet Jones was also a regular on Downton Abbey). I'd love to see Isobel and Violet as companions, for a story or two!

I’d recommend the books if you can get your hands on them.

 

[jaime]

I'm really sorry and didn't mean to offend. I tend to call everyone "dude", but I should really get out of that habit.



Other than the majority of The Companion Chronicles, they aren't audio books. They're full on audio plays with zero narration featuring full casts, scores and sound effects. I'm not sure if that helps or not with understandably falling asleep just sitting there only listening to something.

Apparently audio plays are still a thing in the UK. Which I guess makes sense in retrospect. I mean, Hitchhikers Guide and Red Dwarf both started out as audio plays. And, unlike here in the States where all the major radio dramas and comedies fled to TV leaving radio for news, sports, music and televangelists and/or conservative talk show hosts, a lot of popular programs stayed on the radio over there and never made the transition. Probably due to that whole TV tax thing. If a lot of people in the States cut out cable due to financial issues, I'm sure a lot of people in the UK cut out TV period due to that tax.



Tennant's only done six one-hour plays so far (Three co-starring Billie Piper and three co-starring Catherine Tate) due to being super busy being David Tennant, but "Death and the Queen" with Donna is really well liked. Big Finish has done a really good job catering to both Classic Who fans and NuWho fans. Since they now have a license from the BBC to use any characters, Doctors or ideas from up until the final episode of Capaldi's era, I'm sure they're just getting started. Well, as much as something that began in 1998 can "just get started" twenty years in.

The TV license probably didn’t affect it as much as you’d think. TV was just too expensive in general for a lot of us and didn’t catch on till the fifties, and wasn’t really common for some families even then. Phones are the same deal. Even radios once upon a time were one a street with wires between houses, and within the last century and a bit we might still have communal laundry or baking facilities. Rag and bone me/knife sharpening door to door was still a horse and cart affair into the eighties, and two different TV Licenses, one colour, one B&W, was still a thing for ages too.
We adjust surprisingly slowly to change.
Within a couple of generations we moved from abject poverty to relatively OK off in my family. Like kids with no shoes and second hand clothes in my grandparents generation to most modern luxuries by the time I was a kid. It’s so,etching you don’t really see much of in the modern narratives around history...we are only a hundred years from when the lower end of the class system was not much above slavery, (we called it servants, and no one was ‘owned’ as such, but conditions in some respects were pretty comparable, if perhaps not quite as unpleasant.) and really only about seventy years from when the Second World War led to most of the big changes. (And to a lesser extent the first.) Like people who weren’t particularly well off getting the vote and stuff (not just women either...most men couldn’t vote at the beginning of the twentieth century either.)
We have a complex history, that sometimes gets forgotten in the whitewash of western culture under Hollywood.