The Two Doctors?

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Except that misses the point -- and it's not an unsubtle one -- of "The Day of the Doctor," that the War Doctor was always the Doctor, that he hadn't changed, that even in the circumstances of the Time War he was the man he had always been even if he couldn't see that himself. And that's been clear in every licensed appearance since, from the novelization of the episode to the Big Finish audios to George Mann's novel to the Titan Comics. The War Doctor is the Doctor, full stop, even if he couldn't see that he remained worthy of the name until the very end of his life.

But that was the point of Day only. That he realizes it at his incarnation's end. Until then, he's not, and should not, be the Doctor. He's the Seventh Doctor up to 11 in scheming and manipulating, the Third in strategic organization and fighting, and the Eighth in a hundredth in rage and anger (which he can be a lot of the time in the audios). I hate that he's "just the Doctor" in the Big Finish audios, because that makes the already bland adventures all the more forgettable. It wasn't just the wiping of Gallifrey's destruction that earned him being scorned, he ignored himself first.

There are Doctors who are more morally compromised than the War Doctor was -- the first Doctor at the start of his adventures with Ian and Barbara, the seventh Doctor at his most "Time's Champion," the David Collings Doctor in Full Fathom Five, even the Infinity Doctor (who lets Omega loose on the universe so he can spend eternity with his dead wife) -- and who never repudiated the name of the Doctor.

I genuinely wish the audios had taken a similar step with the character, instead of following the trend set by Day. No one argues the First and Seventh aren't the Doctor, after all. He should have acted more like a Warrior. He should have been more ruthless, cunning and, well, war-like. He should never been like the Doctor, because that's what the Ninth and onwards tried to be.

Moffat's rigamarole to maintain the marketing numbering as something significant was errant nonsense, imho. It would have been much cleaner to simply say that Capaldi was the fourteenth Doctor (which, narratively, he was) and leave it at that.

On the other hand, I totally agree with him. The WAR Doctor is not the Doctor. He didn't count himself as the Doctor. The Eleventh Doctor was never the Twelfth or even the Thirteenth Doctor.

Really, I blame Moffat for creating the War Doctor in the first place, not for not counting him numerically afterwards. Its bad enough he retroactively introduced a new Doctor, anyway.

It's kind of funny how David Richardson's War Doctor and Eighth Doctor Time War audios (outside of the Matt Fitton's acclaimed War Doctor episode The Neverwhen) are so damn bland and demystifying, but Scott Handcock's peripheral Time War stuff (Derek Jacobi's War Master miniseries and Gallifrey: Time War) is ambitious and exciting. Turns out The Doctor wasn't doing anything remotely interesting during the Time War, but Romana II, Leela, Ace and The Master sure as hell were.

Writing makes for a huge difference. In everything. Also, BF took the literal, Moffat interpretation of the Time War rather than RTD's abstract, impossibly convoluted but epic approach idea. I am behind those audios but I am looking forward to to listening to them, eventually.

 

[jaime]

It's kind of funny how David Richardson's War Doctor and Eighth Doctor Time War audios (outside of the Matt Fitton's acclaimed War Doctor episode The Neverwhen) are so damn bland and demystifying, but Scott Handcock's peripheral Time War stuff (Derek Jacobi's War Master miniseries and Gallifrey: Time War) is ambitious and exciting. Turns out The Doctor wasn't doing anything remotely interesting during the Time War, but Romana II, Leela, Ace and The Master sure as hell were.

#notmytimewar

I prefer the war in the heaven, the fall of the nine Gallifreys, and the conflict with faction paradox behind the scenes. I just finally read Unnatural History, and realise (a) how much the new show lifted and (b) how nothing will ever top literary who. Ever. Not Big Finish trying to ignore it, not even the greatest of the new show (moments here and there...really really nice speeches and ideas particularly under the moff) recontextualising it. The sheer energy and beauty of particularly the EDAs, the purity of the Doctor as myth in both the NAs and EDAs, nothing. The sooner they get the rights orted better, and bung all of those out as omnibuses or ebooks the better.
#SamJonesisbetterthanRoseandClaraetal and #Compassiondiditbetter. Oh. And #Fitzisawesome.
It’s not even a contest.

 

[The Wormhole]

Moffat's rigamarole to maintain the marketing numbering as something significant was errant nonsense, imho. It would have been much cleaner to simply say that Capaldi was the fourteenth Doctor (which, narratively, he was) and leave it at that.

The irony there is that if they had done the retcon of inserting the War Doctor before Smith's run, they probably could have gotten away with renumbering Eccleston and Tennant, since IIRC they're never actually referred to in universe by their numbers. But then all throughout Smith's run Moffat kept constantly drawing attention to the fact that Smith is the Eleventh Doctor. It was in episode titles, dialogue, various easter eggs throughout the episodes, the Doctor actually identifies himself as "the Eleventh" in The Lodger, and finally we had it the whole Fall of the Eleventh thing set up at the end of season 6 that was basically laying down the groundwork for the remainder of the era. So throughout Smith's entire run, we are basically bashed over the head with a neon sign pointing at Smith stating "THIS MAN IS THE ELEVENTH DOCTOR. GET IT? THE ELEVENTH DOCTOR. THE ELEVENTH DOCTOR. THE ELEVENTH DOCTOR." And then, in the penultimate adventure of Smith's run, they then go ahead and say "well, he's actually the Twelfth." I figure keeping the numbering system the old way was Moffat trying to have his cake and eat it too. Though I did notice Capaldi's run was a bit more restrained about referring to him as Twelfth on screen, they still did it in odd spots (like within the Confession Dial where the Doctor is supposed to be revealing hidden truths about himself).

I will admit, I am kind of surprised they actually are identifying Whitaker as the Thirteenth Doctor. I had a theory running for a few years now that when they got to Thirteen they would be superstitious and decide that's when they would acknowledge the War Doctor's existence to skip number thirteen and go directly from a Twelfth Doctor to a Fourteenth Doctor, just like how buildings are silly and skip a thirteenth floor.

 

[jaime]

The irony there is that if they had done the retcon of inserting the War Doctor before Smith's run, they probably could have gotten away with renumbering Eccleston and Tennant, since IIRC they're never actually referred to in universe by their numbers. But then all throughout Smith's run Moffat kept constantly drawing attention to the fact that Smith is the Eleventh Doctor. It was in episode titles, dialogue, various easter eggs throughout the episodes, the Doctor actually identifies himself as "the Eleventh" in The Lodger, and finally we had it the whole Fall of the Eleventh thing set up at the end of season 6 that was basically laying down the groundwork for the remainder of the era. So throughout Smith's entire run, we are basically bashed over the head with a neon sign pointing at Smith stating "THIS MAN IS THE ELEVENTH DOCTOR. GET IT? THE ELEVENTH DOCTOR. THE ELEVENTH DOCTOR. THE ELEVENTH DOCTOR." And then, in the penultimate adventure of Smith's run, they then go ahead and say "well, he's actually the Twelfth." I figure keeping the numbering system the old way was Moffat trying to have his cake and eat it too. Though I did notice Capaldi's run was a bit more restrained about referring to him as Twelfth on screen, they still did it in odd spots (like within the Confession Dial where the Doctor is supposed to be revealing hidden truths about himself).

I will admit, I am kind of surprised they actually are identifying Whitaker as the Thirteenth Doctor. I had a theory running for a few years now that when they got to Thirteen they would be superstitious and decide that's when they would acknowledge the War Doctor's existence to skip number thirteen and go directly from a Twelfth Doctor to a Fourteenth Doctor, just like how buildings are silly and skip a thirteenth floor.

Eleven was really thirteen.

 

[ClayinCA]

What's all this got to do with Christopher Eccleston and Matt Smith sharing a friendly hug?

 

[jaime]

What's all this got to do with Christopher Eccleston and Matt Smith sharing a friendly hug?

It’s better than the slew of of fanfic such things would usually set off in some quarters no?

Though I don’t think we’ve made any blinovitch limitation gags yet.

 

[thribs]

You’re more likely to have Tom Cruise on Doctor Who than Ecclestone reprising his role at this point.

 

[The Wormhole]

Eleven was really thirteen.

Which doesn't get revealed until the very last episode of Smith's run, and the episode after the one that first established he was the Twelfth.

 

[jaime]

Which doesn't get revealed until the very last episode of Smith's run, and the episode after the one that first established he was the Twelfth.

I think we started to suspect a little before that no?

 

[The Wormhole]

I think we started to suspect a little before that no?

Not likely. The whole thing of the Eleventh Doctor actually being the Thirteenth wasn't even added into Time of the Doctor until a late stage re-write. Originally, in addition to the Truth Field, the Time Lords had set up something on Trenzalore that prevented regeneration, until at the end they lift whatever it was, thus allowing the Doctor to regenerate. But because Eccleston declined to do Day of the Doctor and that led to the creation of the War Doctor, Moffat decided that Tennant's hand job regeneration from Journey's End now counted as an official regeneration, meaning we'd reached the end of the regeneration limit, and so that became the reason the Doctor can't regenerate in Time of the Doctor, with the Time Lords instead granting him a new set of regenerations at the end.

But that really was a sloppy retcon itself, given all throughout Smith's run regeneration is frequently referred to as possible. EG, River kisses the Doctor with poisoned lipstick to suspend his regeneration in Let's Kill Hitler, and then saves him by giving him her remaining ten regenerations. The Angels Take Manhattan the Doctor has regeneration energy he uses to heal River's broken wrist. And then in Nightmare in Silver, just three episodes before Time of the Doctor, the Doctor says to an entity linked to his brain and memories "I can regenerate right now." And then in the finale of Smith's run he's suddenly on his last life.

 

[David cgc]

The Doctor hasn't always been on top of things. I can absolutely believe he thought the "Journey's End" regeneration didn't count, until he actually tried and realized the logical reason why he couldn't anymore.

It did make a pretty tidy way to kill the regeneration limit (and I do enjoy how specific they've been about suggesting he doesn't have one anymore), if by "tidy" I mean, "stuffed into an already over-stuffed Christmas special, so what the hell?" The limit would've had to have been the centerpiece of Capaldi's regeneration, otherwise, and I liked how it turned out as-is.

 

[Mr Awe]

I really don't like Time of the Doctor and learning about that whole retcon malarkey about why he couldn't regenerate just makes it worse.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

I must be one of the few people in the world who dislike the War Doctor retcon (I don't think I'll ever be fond of that one) but genuinely likes the Meta-Crisis Doctor retcon.

 

[The Wormhole]

The whole thing about the meta-crisis retcon that gets me is that RTD was trying to do away with the regeneration limit, as further reflected in the SJA episode Smith was in where he talks about having 507 regenerations. So to then go and use Journey's End to reinforce the regeneration limit, is ironic to be polite.

The limit would've had to have been the centerpiece of Capaldi's regeneration, otherwise, and I liked how it turned out as-is.

As it turns out, death was a centerpiece of Capaldi's run anyway, with it being a central theme of his first two seasons and his finale special. If they had stuck with Capaldi being the actual Thirteenth Doctor, then having him be on his final life and facing final permanent death might actually thematically fit as an explanation for this. As it is, seasons 8 and 9 at times become rather depressing and unsubtle reminders of mortality for no apparent reason. Season 9 especially, which might as well have had a neon sign flashing in each episode stating "PEOPLE DIE CLARA WILL DIE"

 

[Captaindemotion]

Wasn't it the BBC themselves that mandated that they couldn't use Paul McGann/The Eighth Doctor in the 50th Annivesrsary Special?

I don’t believe so, no.

 

[DS9Continuing]

It's a wonder he decided to use Tom Baker, given his apparent preference to pretend that Classic Who never existed. My cynical self was that it was so the Classic Who fans would be more inclined to watch the show, and praise it.

What nonsense is this? Moffat has never ignored the existence of the classic series. The entire run-up of series 7 to the 50th anniversary was jammed full of classic series and classic Doctor references, precisely to set us up for the revelation of a Doctor we'd never heard of in the 50th. Moffat's very first ep as EP included the faces of all the classic Doctors. He reintroduced the Silurians, the Zygons, the Mondasian Cybermen. 12's run was packed with classic references - 12 himself was a combination of 1, 3 and 6, and the recurring Master was straight out of 3's era. I don't know what more you could possibly ask from him on that score.

But that really was a sloppy retcon itself, given all throughout Smith's run regeneration is frequently referred to as possible. EG, River kisses the Doctor with poisoned lipstick to suspend his regeneration in Let's Kill Hitler, and then saves him by giving him her remaining ten regenerations. The Angels Take Manhattan the Doctor has regeneration energy he uses to heal River's broken wrist. And then in Nightmare in Silver, just three episodes before Time of the Doctor, the Doctor says to an entity linked to his brain and memories "I can regenerate right now." And then in the finale of Smith's run he's suddenly on his last life.

Come on now - Rule One. None of these are un-retcon-able. River using up her own regenergy to save him doesn't mean he suddenly has more regenerations of his own. Maybe that's exactly the energy he was giving her back to fix her wrist, but maybe that was the extent of it. Maybe he didn't figure out he was on his last life - that Handy had counted - until he was stuck on Trenzalore for 600 years with nothing to do but face his mortality, and so when he told the Cyber-Controller he could regenerate, he didn't know he was wrong. All stretches perhaps, but I'd rather creatively make it work than insist it's all irreconcilable rubbish.

The whole thing about the meta-crisis retcon that gets me is that RTD was trying to do away with the regeneration limit, as further reflected in the SJA episode Smith was in where he talks about having 507 regenerations. So to then go and use Journey's End to reinforce the regeneration limit, is ironic to be polite.

You honestly don't thing the 507 thing was just the Doctor having fun and bullshitting Clyde? Moffat has said that RTD liked to use that number - 507 - as his go-to whenever he needed to exaggerate something to a ridiculous degree. That's why he used the number in "The Doctor Falls". There is no way we're supposed to take 507 regenerations seriously.

And as for Handy being a way to outsmart the regeneration limit ("chop a bit off and make a new one - you're like worms"), the Doctor explicitly says it's a unique event, should never have happened and never will happen again, and goes on to metaphorically kill Donna to demonstrate why. Besides which, it wouldn't have worked anyway because Handy was not an extra Time Lord, he was human.

.

 

[Timewalker]

What nonsense is this? Moffat has never ignored the existence of the classic series. The entire run-up of series 7 to the 50th anniversary was jammed full of classic series and classic Doctor references, precisely to set us up for the revelation of a Doctor we'd never heard of in the 50th. Moffat's very first ep as EP included the faces of all the classic Doctors. He reintroduced the Silurians, the Zygons, the Mondasian Cybermen. 12's run was packed with classic references - 12 himself was a combination of 1, 3 and 6, and the recurring Master was straight out of 3's era. I don't know what more you could possibly ask from him on that score.

I didn't see Capaldi's last season. And do forgive me for not noticing how much whatsername resembled Roger Delgado. I wasn't aware that he was female, and I certainly didn't notice any suave, debonair qualities in "Missy".

And none of the Executive Producers in the Classic era had the bizarre idea that the companion was the star of the show and the Doctor just along for the ride.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Yeah, while RTD alluded to OldWho, Moffat fully embraced it. He basically made sure the audience was watching a 50-year old program, rather than the fifth or sixth series of a relatively new program.

 

[jaime]

I didn't see Capaldi's last season. And do forgive me for not noticing how much whatsername resembled Roger Delgado. I wasn't aware that he was female, and I certainly didn't notice any suave, debonair qualities in "Missy".

And none of the Executive Producers in the Classic era had the bizarre idea that the companion was the star of the show and the Doctor just along for the ride.

Actually that was the setup with Unearthly Child. Susan was the one on the journey, the Doctor to enable it all, and the two teachers to make it wholesome and educational xD

I see your point, but I think there is a deliberate echoing of the pertwee era in Capaldi run, including the Mistress there. There’s also more unit, and more Doctor as representative of earth, trapped there at one point, not to mention the costume and the various invasion stories that are very very Pertwee era. The monks are very claws of Axos in a way.

 

[OCD Geek]

And none of the Executive Producers in the Classic era had the bizarre idea that the companion was the star of the show and the Doctor just along for the ride.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Doctor Who has had a much stronger emphasis and focus on the companions, their personal lives and their character development for quite some time now. If Moffat was "doing it wrong", then I guess Davies was too. And Gary Russell, Nicholas Briggs, David Richardson and James Goss over at Big Finish with their extended Evelyn, Ace & Hex, Charley, Lucie, Bernice Summerfield, etc. arcs. Hell, apparently Andrew Cartmel was doing it wrong during the Classic era too with his major focus on Ace in the final two seasons.

Look, I love that there are two types of Who. The standalone serial Doctors 1-6 style Who (The Doctor-focused Classic era that you like where the companions were just along for the ride) is awesome in its own way. As much as the old 20s-40s serials were highly influential on filmmakers such as Spielberg and Lucas, they've aged very, very poorly. There's no excuse really since old movies and animated shorts from that time hold up beautifully. Classic Who (and the mostly standalone adventures of Doctors 4 & 5 on Big Finish) fills that hole wonderfully by providing the cliffhanger thrills and fantastical adventures while actually being, you know, good. There's nothing quite like it.

The adventures of Doctors 7+ (and 6 on Big Finish) focus equally or more so on the companions, which allows for more modern long-form serialized storytelling and character arcs. The reason for the focus on the companions isn't due to the various showrunners' lack of respect for the character of The Doctor. It's because the Doctor is basically a comic book character. As a matter of fact, no offense to the Bruce Timms, Paul Dinis and Kevin Feiges of the world, but Doctor Who is probably the closest thing to a live-action superhero comic book we'll ever get. It goes on infinitely with new creative teams constantly coming in to give their own take on this legendary heroic figure. We know he/she will never be killed off, or if they do it'll be a temporary thing like in "The Doctor Falls". And any drastic changes they make to The Doctor's character and life will either be reversed by the current creative team when they tidy things up for the next creative team at the end of their run. Or the new creative team will change them first thing they do on the job. The companions, though. Their lives and beings can be forever altered just like that. This allows for much more dynamic long-term storytelling while giving the series actual stakes. We know The Doctor will live to fight injustice another day just like he/she has for thousands of years (or 26 Classic seasons, a TV movie, 20+ Big Finish seasons and 11+ Modern seasons), but the companions will be forever changed by their experiences. And not all of them will make it home.

Two very different ways of doing Who. Two very awesome ways of doing Who. And two shows that are unlike anything else out there.