he/she is the one who took their proverbial football and left the playground to seemingly pout. if he/she wants to come back, by all means come.So, you're now taking my titles away from me?
This may mean war.
The Refrigerator Theory
- Thread starter kimc
- Start date
We didn't.
They didn't like humor and wanted to leave.
I guess I missed the party, but I'm throwing in my 2 cents anyway.
I'm sorry the character didn't jive with your view of a Captain, and I understand that said view has nothing to do with her gender, but for this trekker (who's been trekking for much longer than Itachi or Valeris have been alive) Janeway was spot on. I would not have changed a thing about her. I loved the way her character changed over the seasons. What some see as inconsistency, I see as growth. Her reaction to the loss of Neelix's lungs, while he lived on holographic life support in sickbay, WAS different from her reaction to Seven's impending death due to a faulty cortical node as well it should be. She knew Neelix for a couple of months, and knew Seven for over three years. There's a difference between theory and practice, and early in her journey many things she ran into was "theory". Maybe today I will overule my engineer's decision to refuse the knowledge of a Cardassian monster to save her life, since without her I may not get this crew home alive. 3 years later maybe I will allow my Astrometrics chief to refuse treatment because in reality her loss would break my heart but not imperil the crew's mission to get home.
I guess I really have to rewatch this ep, since I don't recall her NOT doing just that with her lower decks crewmen/woman. With Herren, he of the yellow shirt, she tried to bond with him on Voyager by acknowledging the fact that the postulet (sp?) he was trying to disprove had more lives than a cat and she was willing to work with him on it one day. Meaning, to me, that she's interested in such puzzles and had tried, unsuccessfully herself to solve them. She was trying to bond with him where he was comfortable, not on a holodeck playing velocity but hunched over a computer screen debating science. Sounds like a mentor to me.
I understand that many people have an opinion opposite of mine, and I'm just pleased as punch that when Voyager was on in the 90's, that all of my colleagues who were Trekkers at work watched and loved the show too. How do I know? Because I converted them with video tapes of the eps in the early years when the show moved around the channel more than Neelix moved around the DQ running from Kazon, until it settled in its wednesday time slot. Thursday morning was my fav time of the week, when we would run into each other and compare notes on the latest adventure.
you said "astropolitical environment" in this thread. this indeed sounds like a politician.I try.
Apparently, in a discussion in the TNG forum, someone referred to me as "Admiral Janeway" and said I was making things up as I go: Link
I take that as a compliment. Oh, and that I'm a she.
I haven't read this entire thread yet, so I might have missed what I'm about to say being mentioned, sorry if it has...
Anyways, I don't understand this line:
I do agree that men come back more, and that it happens in Trek too. I think part of the reason is that female characters are cliched as being less 'revenge-ready' than male characters as apparently (according to the cliche) women let things like that go more than men. So women don't often revenge their dead/hurt boyfriends/husbands/sons/brothers but men will usually do so, which brings the revenge plot to life. (Don't get me wrong, I know this isn't always true in real life.) It all goes back to the damsel in distress syndrome.
It can be an interesting trope but it's approaching the point of becoming a cliche.
Also, if you think about it (I'm not going to be adamant about it) but female characters in a leading role don't die as often as male characters in a leading role. For example, on Stargate SG-1, while Sam Carter has died and come back once or twice, Daniel Jackson dies repeatedly and comes back every time. So of course a semi-minor character (okay, so Janeway isn't a minor character but bear with me) such as Yar or Kes who may be a regular cast member but not focused on very much, is less likely to come back than a focal character. If you factor that into the Refrigerator Theory being applied to Trek, it wouldn't quite be the same, in my opinion.
AND....now I've read the rest of the thread. Here's my two cents.
1) Janeway's not a 'monster', but I do think her perspective on 'the good of the crew' is skewed sometimes. Like nobody else in the universe matters. It reminds me of Sisko's crazed vendetta against Eddington or Archer going space pirate on an unsuspecting, innocent bystander. At other times, I agree with her decisions.
2) Tuvix has never bothered me...if one crewmember was holding two crewmembers hostage, effectively killing them in a more 'normal' way, her decision to end that person's life would not have been questioned like it was in Tuvix. (My issue with Tuvix is the way the scientific explanation of his creation and the way he acts is emotionally inconsistent and contradictory.
Anyways, I don't understand this line:
So, there are only 16 female characters in Star Trek? Huh? What does she mean by 25%?
I do agree that men come back more, and that it happens in Trek too. I think part of the reason is that female characters are cliched as being less 'revenge-ready' than male characters as apparently (according to the cliche) women let things like that go more than men. So women don't often revenge their dead/hurt boyfriends/husbands/sons/brothers but men will usually do so, which brings the revenge plot to life. (Don't get me wrong, I know this isn't always true in real life.) It all goes back to the damsel in distress syndrome.
It can be an interesting trope but it's approaching the point of becoming a cliche.
Also, if you think about it (I'm not going to be adamant about it) but female characters in a leading role don't die as often as male characters in a leading role. For example, on Stargate SG-1, while Sam Carter has died and come back once or twice, Daniel Jackson dies repeatedly and comes back every time. So of course a semi-minor character (okay, so Janeway isn't a minor character but bear with me) such as Yar or Kes who may be a regular cast member but not focused on very much, is less likely to come back than a focal character. If you factor that into the Refrigerator Theory being applied to Trek, it wouldn't quite be the same, in my opinion.
AND....now I've read the rest of the thread. Here's my two cents.
1) Janeway's not a 'monster', but I do think her perspective on 'the good of the crew' is skewed sometimes. Like nobody else in the universe matters. It reminds me of Sisko's crazed vendetta against Eddington or Archer going space pirate on an unsuspecting, innocent bystander. At other times, I agree with her decisions.
2) Tuvix has never bothered me...if one crewmember was holding two crewmembers hostage, effectively killing them in a more 'normal' way, her decision to end that person's life would not have been questioned like it was in Tuvix. (My issue with Tuvix is the way the scientific explanation of his creation and the way he acts is emotionally inconsistent and contradictory.
Last edited:
but here's the absolute problem, when she makes the right choices and does the right things: it doesn't matter, because she is the hero and is supposed to make the right decisions and do the right things. No points on the score board for out Kirking Kirk. No gold star for coasting along with the rubes expectations.
However.
When she''s bad?
She's not supposed to be bad.
When she's naughty...
That leaves a stain.
Using this criteria to weigh off the pros and cons of her history and potential, it is IMPOSSIBLE for Janeway to redeem any of her past egregious acts since it is impossible for her to act out above or beyond her call of duty to be good and save the day.
However.
When she''s bad?
She's not supposed to be bad.
When she's naughty...
That leaves a stain.
Using this criteria to weigh off the pros and cons of her history and potential, it is IMPOSSIBLE for Janeway to redeem any of her past egregious acts since it is impossible for her to act out above or beyond her call of duty to be good and save the day.
you said "astropolitical environment" in this thread. this indeed sounds like a politician.I try.
Apparently, in a discussion in the TNG forum, someone referred to me as "Admiral Janeway" and said I was making things up as I go: Link
I take that as a compliment. Oh, and that I'm a she.
This is very simple math. From Uhura to T'Pol there have been 16 female cast members in the five Trek series, four of these females have died. If sixteen is the whole, then four is one quarter of that whole or 25%. Since 4+4+4+4=16, then 4=25%.
I'm pretty sure this is right, I am an accountant and have been working with numbers for 36 years now.
Brit
I'm only counting 13 main title females, actually: Uhura, Crusher, Troi, Yar, Dax x2, Kira, Seven, Janeway, Kes, Torres, T'Pol, and Hoshi. Are the other three Rand, Chapel, and maybe Leeta or Lwaxana? M'Ress? If we go into prominent guest stars, the numbers become fuzzier.
I'm afraid I don't see things in the same fashion as those who see four female deaths and no comebacks. I don't remember Kes dying in "Fury," but if she did, Evolution retconned that to be someone else. Jadzia died, but Dax survived in Ezri, so that's kind of a wash. Yar Prime died at the hands of Armus, but "Yesterday's Enterprise" Yar only died via hearsay. There could be some nefarious Romulan plot that she is involved in that results in a post-Nemesis appearance. Janeway is both alive and dead in the tie-in fiction, just like Kirk, Data, and McCoy. In fact, you could argue that she is not dead at all but just on a different kind of voyage.
Star Trek has very fluid concepts of life and death, and any character that a creator wants to use can be brought back in some fashion if the CBS/Paramount folks approve it. In time, we may be back at zero permanent deaths from some point of view, just like we were pre-1988.
I'm afraid I don't see things in the same fashion as those who see four female deaths and no comebacks. I don't remember Kes dying in "Fury," but if she did, Evolution retconned that to be someone else. Jadzia died, but Dax survived in Ezri, so that's kind of a wash. Yar Prime died at the hands of Armus, but "Yesterday's Enterprise" Yar only died via hearsay. There could be some nefarious Romulan plot that she is involved in that results in a post-Nemesis appearance. Janeway is both alive and dead in the tie-in fiction, just like Kirk, Data, and McCoy. In fact, you could argue that she is not dead at all but just on a different kind of voyage.
Star Trek has very fluid concepts of life and death, and any character that a creator wants to use can be brought back in some fashion if the CBS/Paramount folks approve it. In time, we may be back at zero permanent deaths from some point of view, just like we were pre-1988.
want to count pulaski, yar and lolita dax as main cast when they had a single season? nog and rom must have had twice as many appearances as any of them. even keiko o'brien had more. so, of the female main cast kes died for sure, and she was at the end of her life expectancy, and totally demented. jadzia's hideous parasite lived on.
Janeway shot Kes dead the first time around.
the second time around she went off intot he sunset like a cowboy.
We have to assume that any time she spent noncoporial is time she spent not aging. Which could have added years to her life expectancy depending how long she kicked it etherially... That and we don't know how she rebuilt herself when she returned to reality, or if her stewardship of time meant like Annorax (bad, bad, bad fake science.)time was her bitch and she was functionally immortal.
the second time around she went off intot he sunset like a cowboy.
We have to assume that any time she spent noncoporial is time she spent not aging. Which could have added years to her life expectancy depending how long she kicked it etherially... That and we don't know how she rebuilt herself when she returned to reality, or if her stewardship of time meant like Annorax (bad, bad, bad fake science.)time was her bitch and she was functionally immortal.
Uhura was never really a main cast member in the show, neither officially nor factually, if you look at the screentime and storylines - Kirk, Spock and McCoy were the only main cast members - though you may argue that she become one in the movies, together with Scotty, Sulu and Chekov.
Guinan, on the other hand, though she was always created as a guest star, was in the show for several seasons, and one could say she was practically a regular, or semi-regular. I can't remember how Diana Muldaur was credited, but Pulaski could be regarded as a regular during season 2.
<sarcasm>Thanks for the math lesson.</sarcasm>
I understood the math, I didn't believe the numbers used. And she didn't say 'main characters' she said 'female characters'. Bad counting.
I'd count her as a main, methinks - I mean, she was basically filling Crusher's shoes at the time.
<sarcasm>Thanks for the math lesson.</sarcasm>
If you don't want a math lesson, then be careful how you word the question, and if you all want some of the females counted thrown out it only makes the percentages higher and the point being made stronger.
But mainly simply look at the spreadsheet that the author attached to the post and you will see exactly who she counted, both male and female.
http://www.jceternal.com/Trek Main Character list cv.xls
The Original Series – Uhura, Chaple, and Rand
Next Generation – Crusher, Yar, Troi, and Pulanski
DS9 – Kira, Jadzia and Ezri
Voyager – Janeway, Torres, Kes and Seven
Enterprise – T’Pol and Sato
It was always there for anyone to see.
Brit
if Janice's 8 episodes of TOS counts (I never noticed her promotion track before looking through her IMDB listings as the movies progressed. It showed a metered graduation up the chain of command unlike some dimbulbs on Voyager never managed to achieve. Rand seemed to skip ensign going from cpo to lieutenant, or we just didn't see those movies which were never made that showed her as an ensign saving the day.) then Pulaski and Ezri's full season is an acomplishment.
Similar threads
