The REAL reason that Kes isn't a more beloved character...

[DigificWriter]

Whatever salient points the OP was trying to make got overridden by the false assertion of Kess exemplifying everything that was 'bad' about Voyager.

Also, speaking from the experience of once having watched most of the first four seasons of Voyager in their intended order, I can say with the utmost confidence that it wasn't the writing that 'failed' Kes, but the decisions made by UPN executives who concluded that Voyager was the kind of Star Trek series that didn't need to be broadcast in a specific order when the truth is the exact opposite (it did need to be broadcast in a specific order because there was in fact continuity and progression to the stories despite the plots of individual episodes being resolved over the course of a single hour except in cases where the writers were telling a story that was specifically designed to be spread out over multiple episodes).

 

[Oddish]

I've made my peace with Voyager being episodic. It may have fallen shy of its potential, but it provided a sort of show that many people wanted. A sort of "comfort Trek". DS9 was better overall, but both had their niche and their fans.

That doesn't mean I'm Ok with how sloppy it was, or the inconsistencies that could have been addressed with seconds of dialogue. There's no excuse for that.

 

[Lynx]

Whatever salient points the OP was trying to make got overridden by the false assertion of Kess exemplifying everything that was 'bad' about Voyager.

Also, speaking from the experience of once having watched most of the first four seasons of Voyager in their intended order, I can say with the utmost confidence that it wasn't the writing that 'failed' Kes, but the decisions made by UPN executives who concluded that Voyager was the kind of Star Trek series that didn't need to be broadcast in a specific order when the truth is the exact opposite (it did need to be broadcast in a specific order because there was in fact continuity and progression to the stories despite the plots of individual episodes being resolved over the course of a single hour except in cases where the writers were telling a story that was specifically designed to be spread out over multiple episodes).

That was a devastating decision by the UPN hotshots.

Due to what the show was meant to be, which was a show about a ship traveling from one point in the galaxy to another, Voyager just had to have the episodes in a certain order. That the hotshots of UPN didn't realize that or simply didn't give a d**n is actually scary.

But it also explains the arrogance to the fans which was a trademark for the show during its existance. Those in charge, from the UPN hotshots to Berman and his gang of writers and producers didn't care. They were only in for the money, nothing more and when fans complained, they didn't care or did the opposite just to show the ungrateful sheep out there that "WE are in charge and WE decide".

Even the actors were affected by that arrogance and lack of interest for the show. Lien was dumped for no reason at all after three years of good work. Beltran tried to come up with suggestions but were told "NO" by those in charge. No matter that he got frustrated in the long run.

No doubt that the show suffered from continuity errors to downright stupidity when it was run on all levels by people who didn't care.

Voyager was actually a good show, at least in the three first seasons. But it could have been much better.

I've made my peace with Voyager being episodic. It may have fallen shy of its potential, but it provided a sort of show that many people wanted. A sort of "comfort Trek". DS9 was better overall, but both had their niche and their fans.

That doesn't mean I'm Ok with how sloppy it was, or the inconsistencies that could have been addressed with seconds of dialogue. There's no excuse for that.

I totally agree with you in what you have written.

I have often told the story about my problems with being able to watch DS9 due to problems with airing and such. Instead I happened to find Voyager back in 1998 and took an immediate liking to the series from the beginning, a liking which lasted until season 4.

However, I still like seasons 1,2 and 3. It's only in the recent years with most of my earlier emotions, good and bad being leveled out and because of being able to watch the whole of DS9 from start to end a couple of times that I've started to see the flaws in Voyager more clearly.

I still like the Voyager characters, most of them are still my favorites in many ways. But in the light of later experiences they seem a bit "flat" compared to the many facets of the DS9 characters and the development of those characters.

I wonder what would have happened if I had got the chance to watch the three first seasons of DS9 before starting watching Voyager. had I become the Voyager fan I did become after watching Caretaker or would I have seen the flaws already then.

I know that there was a lot fon criticizm to Voyager from many DS9 fans back then. I didn't understand why then but I understand some of it now.

 

[Oddish]

Those in charge, from the UPN hotshots to Berman and his gang of writers and producers didn't care. They were only in for the money, nothing more and when fans complained, they didn't care or did the opposite just to show the ungrateful sheep out there that "WE are in charge and WE decide".

I think that's true. How else would you explain not only the completely stupid decision to not promote Harry (despite many fan letters saying he should be), but to deliberately rub the viewer's nose in it on multiple occasions?

Voyager was actually a good show, at least in the three first seasons. But it could have been much better.

Yes. Even if they had kept it episodic, they could have explained the shuttles, torpedoes, and other inconsistencies with mere seconds of dialogue. It would not have affected Voyager's overall style at all.

I still like the Voyager characters, most of them are still my favorites in many ways. But in the light of later experiences they seem a bit "flat" compared to the many facets of the DS9 characters and the development of those characters.

Pretty much all of the DS9 characters got their share of development. Even seemingly minor ones like Rom and Nog, and even villains like Dukat.

 

[DigificWriter]

Nitpicky inconsistencies (such as having resources that should've been exhaustive but weren't treated as being so) don't matter in a Serialized Procedural, which is exactly what Voyager is.

What needs to be consistent and emphaized in terms of internal continuity in a Serialized Procedural is characterization and thematic storytelling, and aside from a couple of instances, Voyager is very consistent in both of those areas.

 

[Oddish]

Nitpicky inconsistencies (such as having resources that should've been exhaustive but weren't treated as being so) don't matter in a Serialized Procedural, which is exactly what Voyager is.

You're not completely wrong, but consider two things.
1. This is Star Trek, and Trek fandom geeks (like me) are nitpicky by nature.
2. We're not talking huge amounts of work. Spend ten seconds in "Night" mentioning a new industrial replicator that can fabricate photonic warheads and shuttle parts. Boom, done, you've satisfied us, and can blow up endless shuttles, fire infinite torpedoes, and build a Delta Flyer or three.

 

[BillJ]

Reason why Kes isn't more beloved? She was very bland and almost immediately forgotten when Jeri Ryan joined the cast.

 

[Oddish]

I think the same could be said for Harry and Chakotay, too. But they weren't daring enough to snuff the first officer, and Harry was (reportedly) spared the axe by a timely magazine article.

 

[BillJ]

I think the same could be said for Harry and Chakotay, too.

You won't get any argument from me on the blandness of Chakotay and Kim. Beltran and Wang should've been written out of the show right along with Jennifer Lien.

 

[DigificWriter]

Trek fandom geeks (like me) are nitpicky by nature.

That's a failure of the fandom, not the show.

For what it was and what it did, Voyager was significantly more successful than it gets credit for and deserves far more credit than it gets, even and especially from some of the Trek fans who claim to enjoy it*.

* I'm including myself in this group because there was a point in my life and in my personal Trek fandom where I claimed to like Voyager*, but simultaneously couldn't accept it as it was.

 

[Oddish]

You won't get any argument from me on the blandness of Chakotay and Kim. Beltran and Wang should've been written out of the show right along with Jennifer Lien.

Yes. Harry's death, because he was young, and like a son to Janeway and a best friend to Tom, could have been very affecting. And Chakotay's would have upped the stakes: no character would be deemed safe. And losing those three would maintain balance: we'd lose one from each of the three categories (Starfleet, Maquis, and Delta native).

For what it was and what it did, Voyager was significantly more successful than it gets credit for and deserves far more credit than it gets, even and especially from some of the Trek fans who claim to enjoy it*.

That is true. It had its own niche as an episodic, TNG-style show. But adding two or three minutes of dialogue (over a 120-hour series) to satisfy the fandom geeks would not have been asking too much, IMO.

 

[DigificWriter]

That is true. It had its own niche as an episodic, TNG-style show. But adding two or three minutes of dialogue (over a 120-hour series) to satisfy the fandom geeks would not have been asking too much, IMO.

Voyager is not anything remotely like TNG.

TNG is the Sci-Fi equivalent of The Simpsons, while Voyager is the Sci-Fi equivalent of BONES.

 

[Oddish]

Fine, but I still think 3 minutes in 120 hours wasn't too much to ask.

 

[Lynx]

Reason why Kes isn't more beloved? She was very bland and almost immediately forgotten when Jeri Ryan joined the cast.

She was definitely not bland and definitely not forgotten.

You won't get any argument from me on the blandness of Chakotay and Kim. Beltran and Wang should've been written out of the show right along with Jennifer Lien.

No, both Beltran and Wang were good actors, Chakotay was great and Kim was OK.
As for Kes, she should have stayed and Berman, Braga and their gang should have been booted out and replaced by people who could do the job properly.

 

[BillJ]

She was definitely not bland and definitely not forgotten.



No, both Beltran and Wang were good actors, Chakotay was great and Kim was OK.
As for Kes, she should have stayed and Berman, Braga and their gang should have been booted out and replaced by people who could do the job properly.

Those are your opinions and you’re welcome to them.

 

[Lynx]

I think that's true. How else would you explain not only the completely stupid decision to not promote Harry (despite many fan letters saying he should be), but to deliberately rub the viewer's nose in it on multiple occasions?


Yes. Even if they had kept it episodic, they could have explained the shuttles, torpedoes, and other inconsistencies with mere seconds of dialogue. It would not have affected Voyager's overall style at all.

Pretty much all of the DS9 characters got their share of development. Even seemingly minor ones like Rom and Nog, and even villains like Dukat.

I totally agree with your comments.

As for DS9, one of the best aspects with that show is that the recurring characters, such as Garak, Nog, Rom, Weyoun, Dukat and many others were so incredibly good. Voyager should have had more good recurring characters.

DS9 also had the best villains ever in any series. Dukat and Wweyoun are incredible. And the female changeling! So incredible mean but so good as villain. I really hated that character which means that her appearance really achieved what she was supposed to do.

As for the shuttle and torpedoes, this is what should have been included in some episode, most likely The 37's:


Stardate 48942.07 (Friday 10 December 2371)

The latest events have put us in a difficult situation since we have wasted a lot of torpedoes and damaged a shuttle. Therefore I have asked Commander Chakotay, Liutenant Tuvok and Lieutenant Torres to come to my ready room to discuss an idea I have.

"You all know what has happened" said Janeway. "After the recent adventure with the Furies (Voyager book "The Final Fury" which took place between the episodes "Elogium" and "Twisted"), we have lost a shuttle. We have also wasted too many torpedoes. If we keep on wasting our torpedoes in the same way, we will be out of them soon. Considering our long journey and the risk of running into hostile aliens, we need both shuttles and torpedoes. Therefore I want to discuss this idea I have."

"What would that be?" Chakotay asked.

"I suggest that we set up a special workforce on the ship" Janeway said. "The Shuttle and Torpedo Building Team". "Some really skilled people who can have as their priority to build shuttles and torpedoes when it's necessary. If we do so, we will have a chance to avoid being without those in a critical situation."

"That sounds like a good idea", Chakotay said.

"Indeed. And a very logical idea too considering our need for such items" Tuvok said.

"Exactly my thoughts too", said Janeway. "B'Elanna, do you have any people to spare?"

"Well, I think that Dalby, Henley, Gerron and Chell would be perfect for the job. And I would also like to have Lt. Carey in charge of the team. He's the right person for that. If necessary, I can give a helping hand too in a crisis. But I must point out that I need these people in Engineering too and that they would only work with shuttles and torpedoes when necessary."

"I agree", Janeway said. "I would also suggest that we find some other people too among the crew who can assist with shuttle and torpedo building when necessary". Janeway touched her combadge: "Mr Carey, can you come to my ready room immediately!"

And so The Shuttle and Torpedo Building Team was born. From the beginning, it was Lt.Carey, Dalby, Henley, Gerron and Chell. Later on Rollins, Vorik, Samantha Wildman and The Borg baby were added to the team. In fact, those people are the true heroes on Voyager. Without their hard work, Voyager's mission would have been almost impossible.

OK, the comment about The Borg Baby is a joke but the rest is what should have been.

 

[Lynx]

Those are your opinions and you’re welcome to them.

And you can be sure that I never will change them!

 

[Brennyren]

That's a failure of the fandom, not the show.

Are you saying we're watching it wrong? Or perhaps, "interrogating the text from the wrong perspective," as Anne Rice once infamously said to a negative reviewer of one of her books?

I've never had the slightest bit of sympathy for Trek content creators who complained about having to deal with nitpicky fans. Oh, poor them. No way they could have known that was an occupational hazard of working in Trek, and certainly not by the time the fourth live-action series came around.

a Serialized Procedural, which is exactly what Voyager is.

In your opinion. If that's ever been asserted by anyone connected with the show, could you provide a citation? I was an avid viewer of the series for its entire run, and followed the news on it, and I do not recall hearing the term.

 

[DigificWriter]

Are you saying we're watching it wrong? Or perhaps, "interrogating the text from the wrong perspective," as Anne Rice once infamously said to a negative reviewer of one of her books?

I'm saying that Star Trek fans - even those who claim to like Voyager - are far too harsh on it.

In your opinion. If that's ever been asserted by anyone connected with the show, could you provide a citation? I was an avid viewer of the series for its entire run, and followed the news on it, and I do not recall hearing the term.

The 'Serialized Procedural' isn't actually an officially recognized subgenre of television, yet there are dozens of television series that fall under that umbrella. Besides Voyager, you have Star Trek Enterprise, all of the CSI series, every Law and Order series, Fringe, Bones, Angel, Person of Interest, Lucifer, and Elementary, just to name a few, all of which share some or all of the following characteristics:
* They tell largely episodic stories that are wrapped up by the end of a given week, but which simultaneously feed into a larger serialized narrative framework

* They are largely character-focused, with characters whose interpersonal conflicts and drama progress from episode to episode

* They introduce recurring characters who seem like one-off guest stars, but frequently return to play off the regular characters as either antagonistic foils or outright villainous adversaries

* They tell stories that seem like one-offs but are later referred back to either directly or indirectly as part of a broader serialized and character-driven narrative

* They are produced and written to both be accessible to casual viewers and to simultaneously be aired in a sequentially progressive fashion

* Although they're most often entirely episodic, they occasionally go 100% serialized for a few episodes or part or all of a full season in service of a larger arc-narrative and in service of character development and progression

 

[at Quark's]

That's a failure of the fandom, not the show.

I suppose we all want different things from the show. To some people, apparently, all details must be correct in order for immersion to not be broken. I don't care too much about the smaller details, as long as they don't interfere with the story setting. Couldn't care less that in TNG, Data's cat Spot changed sex over the seasons for example. When it does start to become relevant to the story (i.e. voyager mentioning they only have 38 torpedoes, and no way to replace them, yet they spray torpedo volleys liberally in nearly every episode), it starts to bug me - just a bit, and I'll start to make up some head canon ('they must have found a way to replace them after all'). But what I really have issues with is holding the show's premises or characters into contempt (not meant in the juridical sense of course), just to tell a story (e.g. first booting Kes off the show, and then when they bring her back for a single episode, make her an evil woman trying to feed the crew to the Vidiians).

I know I have my sensitive points, so I'm not going to judge those of someone else, even if those points aren't important to me.