The Picard and Data relationship.

[Laughing Dragon]

Was Picard's being drawn to Data...

Being probably one of the best and most interesting relationship in Trek history... Have to do with him being uncomfortable with emotions? I know he showed compassion... but he also what he felt about children and yes, he was shown to do well with them despite that but only when it was absolutely necessary, we also know how he felt about children on the bridge too. Wesley was one that they tried to push that and it failed. The mentorship and guidance were more successful with Data. In this way he can be a guide without dealing with emotions. Also, his response to Data huddled in the corner scared when Geordi was kidnapped he gave him a tongue lashing and was very curt and dismissive. He even told Data to turn off his emotion chip, granted the way Data was being written at the time I probably would have too. So, what do you think? Am I on to something? Is this bunk? Don't know or care? I am interested in what you think.

ALSO, Happy New Years!

 

[somebuddyX]

Eh. I don't think TV Picard had a real relationship with TV Data, other than Picard was mildly intrigued and encouraged Data's journey to humanity. Data was good at his job and Picard respected that. I'm sure he liked Data well enough. Film Picard had a different relationship with Film Data because their lawyers got them script approval or something so they became besties. Their relationship grew more offscreen, like the TOS film guys, so they technically spent more time together even if we didn't see it.
Data and Geordi had a much more interesting relationship to me. For one, I think Geordi was the only one of the senior crew he actually called by his first name. I think Geordi always accepted Data as he was, even without his journey to be human or whatever, and maybe he related more to Data because that was reciprocated.

 

[Dr Helen Noel]

They were the two most popular characters from their show so they became BFFs to give them both more screen time. They did the same with Kirk and Spock. K&S were close in TOS but the movies take it to a whole new level, sidelining Bones a bit. Same thing in DS9 again except Sisko and Dukat couldn't become BFFs so they had to become mortal enemies. I don't think they do it so much for the other shows. Maybe Seven and The Doctor in Voyager?

As an in universe explanation, I think OP's works well.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

Eh. I don't think TV Picard had a real relationship with TV Data, other than Picard was mildly intrigued and encouraged Data's journey to humanity. Data was good at his job and Picard respected that. I'm sure he liked Data well enough. Film Picard had a different relationship with Film Data because their lawyers got them script approval or something so they became besties. Their relationship grew more offscreen, like the TOS film guys, so they technically spent more time together even if we didn't see it.
Data and Geordi had a much more interesting relationship to me. For one, I think Geordi was the only one of the senior crew he actually called by his first name. I think Geordi always accepted Data as he was, even without his journey to be human or whatever, and maybe he related more to Data because that was reciprocated.

Uh, that's what I was saying myself not friends. Everyone knows its Geordie not Picard. As it was outright stated in the show many times, and I enjoy their friendship. Him and Picard were not best friends nor was it presented that way from me or in the series. Nor have I heard of the lawyer's stuff. Why would they do that? Maybe you are joking, and I just don't understand. The film relationship was not changed. It was the same as in the show with the exception of the emotion chip being used. Thats what changed their relationship. As I stated in my post. Becoming strained would mean the opposite would it not instead of being pushed? But if you are saying they had no bond I don't know what to say as you stated (and basically agreed) in the beginning of your post that he was his guide to Datas journey. Thats more than casual. Data and Geordi were both very smart and Geordi was one of the few that could understand him intellectually. So that probably helps their connection. Also, Geordi had the ability to understand machines hence Hue's attachment to him.

From what I have observed Picard was very passionate about Data as he was there to guide him with Lal. As well as when his sentience and freedom was challenged, he was not only his lawyer but one of his staunchest allies. He also was very affected by his death. And the time he thought Data had died (and not kidnapped) along with Geordi in the show, he said "he shall never look upon his like again" with a quiver in his voice. He was really affected; he was not just some working drone. Probably the most affected next to Geordi. Though, I have heard others call Geordi by his first name. Still not saying they were not best friends. Picard always accepted him as well as the rest of the crew. I know Geordi was the first to call him friend, though as data said while he thought he had died with Ro. Actually, I would like to focus on if the relationship (not as in friendship) that Picard preferred and as even was more comfortable with a Data without emotions. Just to clarify, I am not saying he no longer cared about him. Just his response to his fear as an android with emotions. Despite liking Geordi and Data and their friendship (did not mean to replace Geordi at all) I challenge that the Picard and Data one was more interesting and complex. I am assuming this is what sparked the Picard vs. Geordi debate. For those that do not even think they had a bond maybe you can still chime in on his response to Datas fear in 'Generations' when everyone else was more understanding.

I am afraid I don't understand the TOS references.

They were the two most popular characters from their show so they became BFFs to give them both more screen time. They did the same with Kirk and Spock. K&S were close in TOS but the movies take it to a whole new level, sidelining Bones a bit. Same thing in DS9 again except Sisko and Dukat couldn't become BFFs so they had to become mortal enemies. I don't think they do it so much for the other shows. Maybe Seven and The Doctor in Voyager?

As an in universe explanation, I think OP's works well.

Thanks but, again, I was not talking about any friendship between the two. I was the one that called it a mentorship and guidance in my starting post. And not they were "BFFs" and "Besties." The friendship that was pushed with Data was obviously him and Geordi. So Picard was not pushed with the other most popular character. Just because they were not best friends does not mean Picard did not care about Data and does not mean they did not have their own bond. I will dare to see Picard was up there with Geordi in closeness even if their relationship was not the same. I think all of TNG was pretty close nit, it's just that Picard (and Geordi) stuck out more. Now TOS, I actually do not think Bones was replaced in the films. I still think of them as the big three and it was Scotty, Uhura, Checkov and Sulu that were made third wheels. IMHO.

I am afraid I do not understand the other references. Forgive me.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

Double post.

 

[FredH]

Picard isn’t Data’s “best friend”, he’s his “father”, Dr. Soong notwithstanding. Their relationship always struck me as basically father-son (complete with emotional reticence, take that as you will).

 

[Laughing Dragon]

Picard isn’t Data’s “best friend”, he’s his “father”, Dr. Soong notwithstanding. Their relationship always struck me as basically father-son (complete with emotional reticence, take that as you will).

I am not sure that he outright thought himself as his father, but I do believe he brought out some paternal instincts. Even if he was not comfortable with children. I think at times he has even acted as the proud papa for lack of a better phrase. He was definitely the closet thing he had to a father (yes, Soong now withstanding) and Geordi the best friend/brother.

 

[Alexander Corrino]

I've written my share of stories about Jean-Luc and Data, so let's just say "paternal" isn't on my list of how I'd characterize their relationship... but I do think that Jean-Luc indeed feels comfortable around Data because of Data's tendency to look at things logically instead of emotionally. This is something he can work with, and very well at that. What I also think is that he likes Data because he shows him new ways of interpreting things. Jean-Luc is always interested in how people see the universe, and Data's perspective is often unique, and something to learn from.

 

[Dr Helen Noel]

And not they were "BFFs" and "Besties."

Picard isn’t Data’s “best friend”

No, they weren’t actually BFFs, nor were most of the others I listed. I was just being silly.

 

[Qonundrum]

Was Picard's being drawn to Data...

Not in a bedsprings way, more like an adoption or even a paternal by proxy as he had no children, desire to make or raise them, etc. (Also notice that Janeway took to Seven the same way, after being rescued from the Borg collective.)

Being probably one of the best and most interesting relationship in Trek history... Have to do with him being uncomfortable with emotions? I know he showed compassion... but he also what he felt about children and yes, he was shown to do well with them despite that but only when it was absolutely necessary, we also know how he felt about children on the bridge too. Wesley was one that they tried to push that and it failed.

Did it fail, or just succeed differently? He saved the ship every week or so in season 1, then came season 2 when he was given another dimension. Still amazed that they let Riker be the adoptive daddy in "The Child":

PICARD: Ensign Crusher has requested to remain on the Enterprise.​

RIKER: I'm not surprised. How did you respond?​

PICARD: I haven't as yet, Number One. I didn't think it was my responsibility alone. His remaining will create difficulties for us all.​

RIKER: Yes, indeed. With his mother gone, who will see to his studies?​

PICARD: Exactly. Of course, that duty will fall to Commander Data.​

RIKER: And who will tuck him in at night?​

WESLEY: Come on, Commander.​

WORF: I will accept that responsibility.​

TROI: Well, we know he'll get his sleep.​

PICARD: That takes care of the practical, but there's more to growing up than that. It's my belief, Number One, that you're best qualified to supervise that. Are you willing to serve?​

RIKER: Difficult decision. Yes, I can do that.​

PICARD: Well, Mister Crusher, communicate with your mother at Starfleet Medical headquarters. Give her my regards and tell her you have my permission to remain on the Enterprise, but I will abide by her wishes.​

WESLEY: Yes, sir. Thank you sir, I know she'll agree!​

Which is interesting on a greater multitude of levels, though it's interesting that Troi just stands there while Picard tells everyone else around her to teach him, to put him to bed, to burp and change him, and everything else. Was there a deleted scene involving Troi confirming she never really wanted children, or was contented with just Ian, or what?

The mentorship and guidance were more successful with Data. In this way he can be a guide without dealing with emotions.

Except TNG was too inconsistent between "I am an android, I have no emotions", especially in later series, to the earlier ones where he's more akin to AI but lacking genuine self-realization. Except for "The Measure of a Man", which has Data saying everything except "I feel mildly annoyed that you wish to disassemble me", though another scene does indicate he is aware:

DATA: I regret the decision, but I must. I am the culmination of one man's dream. This is not ego or vanity, but when Doctor Soong created me he added to the substance of the universe. If by your experiments I am destroyed, something unique, something wonderful will be lost. I cannot permit that, I must protect his dream.​

Apart from "regret" being an emotion outright, unless he is saying it as an analogous vicarious proxy for Maddox's relational benefit, he does come close by saying that his destruction/death would be a loss. But self-preservation is universal, too, is it not? But if it is not using verbiage for the sake of relational but is true to himself, then Data has always had them but was unaware (which isn't equivalent as having no sentience either), or is the best Data from TNG is the "Pinnochio" allegory rather than "I am a robot guy" that Data would be fully solidified as by season 4? Maybe season 3, but there are one or two possible exceptions.

Wasn't Lore made first, then Data to follow up on when Lore started to worry the colonists and promptly disassembled as a result? So the question is: If it weren't for the Pakleds finding him, let Maddox have Lore? Why or why not?

Not to mention, Data's programming would be largely similar to Lore's, just with bits removed (no pun intended) and other subroutines never called. If today's programs are complex, and it's just one biological blobby and appendaged thing creating it all, even the best diagnostic/heuristic tool can still miss something, which would explain Data's early Pinnochioisms much more readily.

Also, his response to Data huddled in the corner scared when Geordi was kidnapped he gave him a tongue lashing and was very curt and dismissive. He even told Data to turn off his emotion chip, granted the way Data was being written at the time I probably would have too. So, what do you think? Am I on to something? Is this bunk? Don't know or care? I am interested in what you think.

The movies, where he got the chip installed but had malfunctioned and fused (overheated). The next flick has him turning it off and on at will (would be fun if everyone could be so easily reprogrammable, no? Needing facilitating from a third party aside, if Data ever wanted to know what it'd be like to feel evil, he could just program himself to do it and voila...) The next flick sees him keeping it locked up as now it's removable. The final flick pretends he never had it installed.

ALSO, Happy New Years!

Happy belated Yew Year!

 

[somebuddyX]

Picard looked at Data like Lister looked at Kryten or Han Solo looked at Threepio. If Picard had Talkie Toaster on the bridge he would have been equally impressed.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

Picard looked at Data like Lister looked at Kryten or Han Solo looked at Threepio. If Picard had Talkie Toaster on the bridge he would have been equally impressed.

I actually had to look all this up. I did not understand the references. I am, I guess one of those few fans that did not watch every sci-fi show ever. I guess you are joking again? I still don't understand the humor.

Not in a bedsprings way, more like an adoption or even a paternal by proxy as he had no children, desire to make or raise them, etc. (Also notice that Janeway took to Seven the same way, after being rescued from the Borg collective.)



Did it fail, or just succeed differently? He saved the ship every week or so in season 1, then came season 2 when he was given another dimension. Still amazed that they let Riker be the adoptive daddy in "The Child":

PICARD: Ensign Crusher has requested to remain on the Enterprise.
RIKER: I'm not surprised. How did you respond?
PICARD: I haven't as yet, Number One. I didn't think it was my responsibility alone. His remaining will create difficulties for us all.
RIKER: Yes, indeed. With his mother gone, who will see to his studies?
PICARD: Exactly. Of course, that duty will fall to Commander Data.
RIKER: And who will tuck him in at night?
WESLEY: Come on, Commander.
WORF: I will accept that responsibility.
TROI: Well, we know he'll get his sleep.
PICARD: That takes care of the practical, but there's more to growing up than that. It's my belief, Number One, that you're best qualified to supervise that. Are you willing to serve?
RIKER: Difficult decision. Yes, I can do that.
PICARD: Well, Mister Crusher, communicate with your mother at Starfleet Medical headquarters. Give her my regards and tell her you have my permission to remain on the Enterprise, but I will abide by her wishes.
WESLEY: Yes, sir. Thank you sir, I know she'll agree!

Which is interesting on a greater multitude of levels, though it's interesting that Troi just stands there while Picard tells everyone else around her to teach him, to put him to bed, to burp and change him, and everything else. Was there a deleted scene involving Troi confirming she never really wanted children, or was contented with just Ian, or what?



Except TNG was too inconsistent between "I am an android, I have no emotions", especially in later series, to the earlier ones where he's more akin to AI but lacking genuine self-realization. Except for "The Measure of a Man", which has Data saying everything except "I feel mildly annoyed that you wish to disassemble me", though another scene does indicate he is aware:

DATA: I regret the decision, but I must. I am the culmination of one man's dream. This is not ego or vanity, but when Doctor Soong created me he added to the substance of the universe. If by your experiments I am destroyed, something unique, something wonderful will be lost. I cannot permit that, I must protect his dream.

Apart from "regret" being an emotion outright, unless he is saying it as an analogous vicarious proxy for Maddox's relational benefit, he does come close by saying that his destruction/death would be a loss. But self-preservation is universal, too, is it not? But if it is not using verbiage for the sake of relational but is true to himself, then Data has always had them but was unaware (which isn't equivalent as having no sentience either), or is the best Data from TNG is the "Pinnochio" allegory rather than "I am a robot guy" that Data would be fully solidified as by season 4? Maybe season 3, but there are one or two possible exceptions.

Wasn't Lore made first, then Data to follow up on when Lore started to worry the colonists and promptly disassembled as a result? So the question is: If it weren't for the Pakleds finding him, let Maddox have Lore? Why or why not?

Not to mention, Data's programming would be largely similar to Lore's, just with bits removed (no pun intended) and other subroutines never called. If today's programs are complex, and it's just one biological blobby and appendaged thing creating it all, even the best diagnostic/heuristic tool can still miss something, which would explain Data's early Pinnochioisms much more readily.



The movies, where he got the chip installed but had malfunctioned and fused (overheated). The next flick has him turning it off and on at will (would be fun if everyone could be so easily reprogrammable, no? Needing facilitating from a third party aside, if Data ever wanted to know what it'd be like to feel evil, he could just program himself to do it and voila...) The next flick sees him keeping it locked up as now it's removable. The final flick pretends he never had it installed.



Happy belated Yew Year!

I understand that they had a relationship between Westly and Picard but I think it failed. Anytime they tried to have a touching moment a lot of times it felt forced and seemed to fall flat. Picard was also very tough on him. And I don't mean in that fatherly way. They are last seen trapped in a cave. And when he basically told him he was like a son it did seem forced. I don't know if it was Stewarts acting or not. But the only other time is when they basically ruined Wesley's character with that scandal about the dead cadet. Picard did not hold back or even want to defend him. Thats my perspective.