So do you prefer Data with or without the emotion chip?

[Laughing Dragon]

So, how do you prefer Data? With or without emotions? I think me it would be without the emotion chip as he lost a bit of his charm, imo. He was also made to be a bit cowardly. I felt his response to the drink in 10 Forward to be a bit over the top. I also think Picard was a bit of a jerk in how he treated Data when he felt fear for the first time in 'Generations." That said, I don't reject emotion chip Data. I do think despite 'Insurrection' being God awful Data was a nice combination of his original self with emotion mixed in. Maybe it's because he matured by that time. Anyone else notice that? What are your thoughts?​

 

[somebuddyX]

I like the Data with emotions or at least a better understanding of emotions in "All Good Things." I don't really like Data in "Generations" but I like the scene in "First Contact" where the Queen seduces Data by turning on the emotions chip. I think it was a cop out saying he left it at home in "Insurrections," just a way to avoid having to deal with it and going back to a more innocent Data. Now that I think about, they should have gone the complete opposite way and force a Data with emotions to deal with command decisions and sacrifice and loss. Maybe there would be a good use for a counsellor in there.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

I like the Data with emotions or at least a better understanding of emotions in "All Good Things." I don't really like Data in "Generations" but I like the scene in "First Contact" where the Queen seduces Data by turning on the emotions chip. I think it was a cop out saying he left it at home in "Insurrections," just a way to avoid having to deal with it and going back to a more innocent Data. Now that I think about, they should have gone the complete opposite way and force a Data with emotions to deal with command decisions and sacrifice and loss. Maybe there would be a good use for a counsellor in there.

So, in 'Insurrection' he turned off his emotion chip? Either I didn't remember, or I didn't grasp that. It must be the former. When Data turns off his emotion chip in 'FC' and now that I remember 'Insurrection' I actually liked it. Data was acting like a novice all the time. And for some reason it seemed like Data would be a failure with them. I'm surprised he was still allowed to be on the Enterprise in his rank instead of being demoted to ensign. Though, I liked how they handled it in 'All Good Things' too. He seemed calm but also had that old Data charm with that grey stipe in his hair. No one greys like that, lol. And I do think that your ideas and what Data could deal with is interesting. But they just mostly like to use his emotional side for comedy or show us the bad side of having emotions, though.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Now that I think about, they should have gone the complete opposite way and force a Data with emotions to deal with command decisions and sacrifice and loss. Maybe there would be a good use for a counsellor in there

So much potential in the idea of the emotion chip.

All thrown away to so Data can say stuff like ‘oh shit!’ (and how the audience lolled).

The time to do it would have been around Season 6 of TNG where they could have played with the idea properly.

Introducing it in a movie was pointless and clearly they realised that, come Insurrection.

 

[Phoenix219]

I kind of think that he had emotions the whole time and didn't quite realize it. You can't say that he didn't have concern for people, which can be worry, or love, he missed people when they were gone, like Tasha.... he showed concern for Pulaski as she was dying of old age. he was angered by people that wronged him, like Fajo.... he got his feelings hurt losing to Kalrami.... and the contractions things just never, EVER made sense, considering all the art, accents and styles he can reproduce. He was so excited to go play Sherlock Holmes. I absolutely do not accept that early Data did not have some sort of emotional range, even if it was invisible and he didn't detect it.

 

[BillJ]

Without. The emotion chip felt like a cheat on the character.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Honestly, it was just one more thing crowbarred into an already stuffed movie. Surely two worlds colliding was enough of a story hook?

 

[FredH]

I prefer Data in that early TNG period where nobody has invented an emotion chip, but it seemed to be perfectly obvious that Data already had emotions and everyone but he could see this.

Then it was retconned that nope, he was right, he really actually has no emotions but there’s this chip that could give them to him — and something was lost from the character.

TNG’s “The Most Toys”, especially its ending, pretty much depends on the fact that, even if he doesn’t realize it, Data is already a morally and emotionally complex adult.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

The whole idea of Data through later seasons of TNG was that he was on a continual quest to understand and learn what emotions feel like. Making it as easy as just putting a chip in his head devalues that I think.

 

[FredH]

The whole idea of Data through later seasons of TNG was that he was on a continual quest to understand and learn what emotions feel like. Making it as easy as just putting a chip in his head devalues that I think.

Absolutely. Without the emotion chip, he’s basically just going through what most of us do as we grow up (and keep growing) — what am I feeling now? Am I feeling now? What should I be feeling now? — With it, it’s more that he’s suddenly become what we wish we could be. Just turn ‘em off!

(Which doesn’t make me any less pleased for him at the end of Picard. But still.)

 

[Mojochi]

Data with the emotion chip was played for a cheap schtick. Data without emotions was a subtle interplay of journeying through touching moments, and realizing with nuance he always had them in an understated & evolving degree. It really undermined the character, in the name of fan service, the same way they eventually just decided Troi & Riker would get married, or randomly killing off Picard's family or sacrificing Data like he's Spock etc... A lot of cheap stunts in those movies, which I never cared for, that the show was largely absent of.

 

[FredH]

Data with the emotion chip was played for a cheap schtick. Data without emotions was a subtle interplay of journeying through touching moments, and realizing with nuance he always had them in an understated & evolving degree. It really undermined the character, in the name of fan service, the same way they eventually just decided Troi & Riker would get married, or randomly killing off Picard's family or sacrificing Data like he's Spock etc... A lot of cheap stunts in those movies, which I never cared for, that the show was largely absent of.

I agree about “Data DIES!!!” (Especially since Nemesis then adds insult to injury with “What was the song? Why can’t I remember the song?”, with everybody in the audience either groaning at the bathos [they did, I was there] or growling “‘Pop Goes the Weasel’, you moron!”). And I basically agree about Picard’s family in the abstract — though in practice it served the theme of the particular film it was in quite well (pretty much setting up the whole thing, for Picard; Generations is a much better-structured film than people generally give it credit for, and therefore actually one of my favorites).

But Troi and Riker finally getting married? Nah, I thought they both became better characters for it. It had been stretched out long enough, the Baku stuff had given them the needed nudge for it, and in the (very) long run it led to both of them being much better drawn in Picard than they’d ever been before.

 

[Qonundrum]

Without that bleep bleepingly bleeping bleep bleep emotions bleeping chip.

But that's just me bleeping an editorial...

(Spoiler alert: A novella follows, surprise surprise...)

...TNG, early on, wasn't always consistent with Data and his limitations - Additionally with solidifying "emotionless android" only after a couple years of going back and forth between "emotionless android" and 'Pinocchio, the chiseled boy toy who wanted to be like his creator".

Actually, over the years, the Pinocchio aspect has become more endearing, as an AI trying to grow and be more human fits that mold better than "I am an android, I have no emotions", or "I'm an android, I have no emotions, but I have lots of ethical subroutines* we call 'plot armor'."

That said, later in the show's run there were still lots of great Data moments, as "The Next Phase" is far more a Data story despite the exploration of the afterlife and more delicious Romulan malfeasance. I could eat it up all day, but I digress.

Disclaimer: Brent Spiner consistently rocks the house, but we all know that.

Data, always being loved no matter if a contraction was overlooked hence no retake, still made TNG.

Then came the movies, starting with taking a bit moment from "Descent" and making this as a big feature element. Some loved Data's new antics, some loathed it. The story stated that the chip was fused and couldn't be removed and he was stuck having to integrate them...

...no worries folx**, because the movie sequels couldn't begin to keep a straight path for what to do with the thing - you know, have him turn it on or off at will (or at Will), or he didn't bring it with him, or he didn't have it at all when dealing with Shinzon. Even Worf was given deeper reason for showing up each time! But who needs a Data subplot with positive steps in integrating emotions in a classic made-for-TNG way, just flick a switch and WHEEEEE there it is! Right next to Jean-Luc McClane and every other big screen cookie cutter gimmick. (On a positive side, PIC season 3 added real value to the 90s movies in ways that make them more palatable now than back then, but before I digress...)


Long story short: Data in the TNG TV show, Subcategory 1: Pinocchio Style, did it the best.

​

* Which clearly short circuited at the tail end of "The Most Toys", and auto-repair kicked in afterward since he never had this quandary ever again.​

​

** I'm trying to make a new word that will catch on as hideously as "tryna" has. Until then, I'm just going to tryna drink Tranya and read that little famous book, "The Little Engine That Could"... hey cool, my spellchecker recognized "Tranya" but put those little red squiggles around "tryna" but not "Tranya"! ​

 

[Qonundrum]

The whole idea of Data through later seasons of TNG was that he was on a continual quest to understand and learn what emotions feel like. Making it as easy as just putting a chip in his head devalues that I think.

Hence GEN having a moment of brilliance in having the chip overload, fuse itself in that can't be removed, and then having to learn to integrate them as that's part of the human condition too. GEN wasn't rubbish, it just needed another draft to iron out the wrinkles and to make the TNG crew acclimated to the new format and limitations of the big screen. Or save the emotions chip idea for a later movie as GEN was already handling a lot.

But then came three movie sequels, with three different ways to sidestep the issue of dealing with Data, often for 1D action movie shlock, and it fell flat every time. That makes the devaluing seen prior to those minuscule by comparison.

On edit, consolidating replies:

I prefer Data in that early TNG period where nobody has invented an emotion chip, but it seemed to be perfectly obvious that Data already had emotions and everyone but he could see this.

I think that idea is there, and maybe I didn't see it that way either. He has them, just not aware of them - or how they work with others'.

Then it was retconned that nope, he was right, he really actually has no emotions but there’s this chip that could give them to him — and something was lost from the character.

Season 3 definitely made a decision, in part possibly by fan response. When responding to fans with new changes, sometimes it lands, sometimes not. With Data, at the time, it seemed to land as the show wasn't exactly consistent before (even "The Measure of a Man" relies on the Pinocchio trope), but if AI really is more than just enhanced pattern matching, one day there could be computers with genuine emotional conditions and genuine internal growth. (Also cue and queue up all them corny Skynet jokes, too...)

TNG’s “The Most Toys”, especially its ending, pretty much depends on the fact that, even if he doesn’t realize it, Data is already a morally and emotionally complex adult.

Great point. Though that was after the point when he was retconned into "I am an android" as part of season 3's perfection...?

 

[Humanoid #77]

Data spent 7 seasons = 7 years exactly the way he started (until the chip upgrade).

My dog is smarter than him.

 

[Phoenix219]

This is part of why I stop after season 3. I can still buy that he loves his daughter and hates fajo and misses tasha. As with most things in my opinion it is downhill after season 3.

 

[Albertese]

I am of the opinion that Data really always had emotions. All the Soong type androids did, and the fact of the emotions caused instability in the positronic matrix or whatever and caused one kind of collapse or another. Lore was a sociopath, incapable of morality, while Lal was kind but her brain collapsed. I posit that Soong' innovation while building Data was to place some sort of suppressor that prevented the expression of emotions but couldn't really remove them completely. The emotion chip doesn't give him emotions per se, but really allows him to access his intrinsic emotions in a way that is regulated and safe.

--Alex

 

[Phoenix219]

I am of the opinion that Data really always had emotions. All the Soong type androids did, and the fact of the emotions caused instability in the positronic matrix or whatever and caused one kind of collapse or another. Lore was a sociopath, incapable of morality, while Lal was kind but her brain collapsed. I posit that Soong' innovation while building Data was to place some sort of suppressor that prevented the expression of emotions but couldn't really remove them completely. The emotion chip doesn't give him emotions per se, but really allows him to access his intrinsic emotions in a way that is regulated and safe.

--Alex

something like this, for sure. more like the emotions chip deactivates or bypasses the suppression software/circuit that is limiting his emotional expression.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

It reminds me about what Spock said regarding wanting a thing and having a thing in Amok Time.