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The Night Of The Doctor

The point is, we're talking about two different things. Yes, it was stated that Eleven was 400 years older than the War Doctor. But that doesn't mean that the calculation on the sonic screwdriver(s) took exactly 400 years -- it just means that it took less than 400 years, that it was already finished by the time Eleven checked his screwdriver. So it would be a mistake to confuse the stated age difference with the unstated, but definitely smaller, computation time.
 
The point is, we're talking about two different things. Yes, it was stated that Eleven was 400 years older than the War Doctor. But that doesn't mean that the calculation on the sonic screwdriver(s) took exactly 400 years -- it just means that it took less than 400 years, that it was already finished by the time Eleven checked his screwdriver. So it would be a mistake to confuse the stated age difference with the unstated, but definitely smaller, computation time.

NO! The sonic screwdriver finished the calculation during that scene! It finished as soon as the Doctor looked at it! :p
 
The point is, we're talking about two different things. Yes, it was stated that Eleven was 400 years older than the War Doctor. But that doesn't mean that the calculation on the sonic screwdriver(s) took exactly 400 years -- it just means that it took less than 400 years, that it was already finished by the time Eleven checked his screwdriver. So it would be a mistake to confuse the stated age difference with the unstated, but definitely smaller, computation time.

NO! The sonic screwdriver finished the calculation during that scene! It finished as soon as the Doctor looked at it! :p

Eleven just says "Calculation Complete". That does not indicate if it just completed or has been completed for a minute, a day, a year, a decade, etc...
It's not like it went DING! Calculation Complete.
(and I just watched the scene, so it's not from memory).
 
Had it been put after a completely ridiculous statement I would have got it. But your statement looked like you were stating a fact and the emoticon was like "there! see, I'm right".
 
Had it been put after a completely ridiculous statement I would have got it. But your statement looked like you were stating a fact and the emoticon was like "there! see, I'm right".

I feel like my statement was sufficiently ridiculous.
 
Wouldn't be truly hilarious if the calculations in fact finished as soon as the Tenth Doctor left the art museum at the end of the episode and waited until the Eleventh Doctor needed them?
 
Eleven just says "Calculation Complete". That does not indicate if it just completed or has been completed for a minute, a day, a year, a decade, etc...
It's not like it went DING! Calculation Complete.
(and I just watched the scene, so it's not from memory).

Yeah. However, it's worth clarifying that it was still calculating with Tennant approximately 200 years earlier (going by The Impossible Astronaut).
 
True but hyopothetically speacking, it could have finished seconds after Tennant's Doctor looked at it.
 
I'm guessing the 400 years line stems from after when 11 stated his age, and The War Doctor just did a rough bit of math to gauge their difference.

Yeah, I think it is.

It makes it all the more odd because they gave an out for the age inconsistency when he said "unless I'm lying about that." However, if he were lying, Hurt's Doctor wouldn't have been able to do that math properly.

Unless, of course, the number they started counting with is a number Hurt's Doctor picked. His number seems to be 800. Any writer ever hint at how long a Time Lord life is (ideally, a single regeneration).
A typical life could be several centuries at least, and more likely close to a millennium. Romana, at "nearly 140" is still considered quite young, at about the human equivalent of an early-mid-20s human.

One thing I haven't seen anyone mention in this intense debate... are the "years" actually subjective years (as in years the Doctor has personally lived), or objective years (as in 5 minutes for the Eleventh Doctor was actually over a decade for Amy)?
 
I'm guessing the 400 years line stems from after when 11 stated his age, and The War Doctor just did a rough bit of math to gauge their difference.

Yeah, I think it is.

It makes it all the more odd because they gave an out for the age inconsistency when he said "unless I'm lying about that." However, if he were lying, Hurt's Doctor wouldn't have been able to do that math properly.

Unless, of course, the number they started counting with is a number Hurt's Doctor picked. His number seems to be 800. Any writer ever hint at how long a Time Lord life is (ideally, a single regeneration).
A typical life could be several centuries at least, and more likely close to a millennium. Romana, at "nearly 140" is still considered quite young, at about the human equivalent of an early-mid-20s human.

One thing I haven't seen anyone mention in this intense debate... are the "years" actually subjective years (as in years the Doctor has personally lived), or objective years (as in 5 minutes for the Eleventh Doctor was actually over a decade for Amy)?

Seeing as how the Doctor is some 1200 years old and many of his lives were shortned becasue of life threatening situations, I'd say Time Lords could live for alot longer than one millennium.
 
True but hyopothetically speacking, it could have finished seconds after Tennant's Doctor looked at it.

Sure, but I'm not even sure the point of this debate. Does it really matter if it took 400 years or 201?
 
The subjective/physical years question is an interesting one. The first onscreen statement of the Doctor's age is when he tells Victoria that he's about 450 years old in Tomb of the Cybermen (after having to pause and think while he translates it 'into your terms').
But that comes from the pieces about the Doctor's change of appearance that David Whitaker had written for the annual the previous year, which explained that whereas the old Doctor had been more than 700 years old, the new Doctor was much younger, only 450. So there the idea seems to have been that it was a reference to the Doctor's current physical age, not his chronological age. But then when Whitaker wrote that, the idea was that the Doctor's change was due to time being rolled back within the TARDIS, so that Troughton was a physically younger Hartnell (who nevertheless retained all his old selves' past history. Yes, selves. Whitaker's script for Power of the Daleks states outright that the Doctor has done this before, but those lines got cut in Dennis Spooner's rewrite that cut it to length).
So basically, references to the Doctor's age are messed-up right back to the very first one...
 
I personally like the idea that the Doctor has no idea how old he is. If anything, it's the consistency of the new show (and how WD's line depends on consistency to make sense) that bothers me. That suggests he knows how old he is, which contradicts previous descriptions about how old he is (suggesting he didn't know back then).

I guess one reason I asked how long an individual regeneration lasts, though, is that it is possible to posit that the Doctor started counting all over again after the eighth regeneration (sort of being reborn again). If that's the case, he would have spent 800 years as the War Doctor. That would help explain why he's wearing thin and regenerated. When the War Doctor heard 1200 years old, he didn't know for sure whether or not 11 started counting over again, but could at least assume that he didn't add years that weren't there. Therefore, he knew that 11 was at least 400 years older even if he could be theoretically even older.
 
I guess the best way to look at the precise age dropping was The Tenth Doctor's way of starting to count somewhere and try to sound all authoritative every time he said it. Of course, the problem with that is that it makes his own life span (and The Ninth Doctor's, too) seem a lot shorter in comparison to the previous ones and a little harder to cram a lot of untold stories like Big Finish does with the other Doctors (same for the books and comics).
 
True but hyopothetically speacking, it could have finished seconds after Tennant's Doctor looked at it.

Sure, but I'm not even sure the point of this debate. Does it really matter if it took 400 years or 201?

The original question was whether we could estimate how much older the Eleventh Doctor was than the War Doctor. Allyn believed that the sonic-screwdriver calculation provided hard evidence because it was stated to take 400 years to run. But he was misremembering the dialogue; the 400 years figure was only stated as the the Eleventh Doctor's unreliable estimate of how much older he was. Since the exact time the screwdriver calculation took cannot in fact be narrowed down, it doesn't provide any solid evidence of whether that estimate is accurate. So the point is that we still don't know whether Eleven is remembering his age correctly.


If anything, it's the consistency of the new show (and how WD's line depends on consistency to make sense) that bothers me. That suggests he knows how old he is, which contradicts previous descriptions about how old he is (suggesting he didn't know back then).

Not necessarily. It just means that he started counting at a certain figure and has been adding to that figure since then. That doesn't mean that original figure was accurate.

I mean, think about it. He said at the start of his 7th life that he was 953. Both his 7th and 8th lives implicitly lasted a fairly long time, since in both cases he appeared visibly older when he regenerated. Given that Smith's Doctor aged 200 years without visible change, that implies that those two Doctors lasted even longer. And the War Doctor looked much older when he regenerated than when he was "born," which implies he lived a very long time indeed. And yet when the War Doctor regenerated into the Ninth Doctor, he started saying he was 900 years old -- interchanged with statements that he'd been traveling for 900 years, which doesn't make sense since it would mean he'd stolen the TARDIS as an infant.

So yes, the Doctor has been counting his age consistently upward from that 900-years figure ever since the end of the Time War, but that figure is immensely problematical on the face of it.

And that makes sense, really. The Time War lasted a very long time and played merry hell with the timestream of the universe. It would've been extremely difficult for a participant in the war to keep track of the passage of time, due both to the psychological traumas of war and to the literal, physical distortion of time itself. And so much subjective time would've passed that he may have forgotten how old he'd been before the war. And who knows what injuries or memory loss he may have sustained?


I guess one reason I asked how long an individual regeneration lasts, though, is that it is possible to posit that the Doctor started counting all over again after the eighth regeneration (sort of being reborn again). If that's the case, he would have spent 800 years as the War Doctor. That would help explain why he's wearing thin and regenerated. When the War Doctor heard 1200 years old, he didn't know for sure whether or not 11 started counting over again, but could at least assume that he didn't add years that weren't there. Therefore, he knew that 11 was at least 400 years older even if he could be theoretically even older.

I suppose that's one possibility. Except that he tried to put the War Doctor behind him and forget that part of his life, so I think he'd be more likely to count his age as the sum total of every life except the War Doctor. Which is why I think he must've forgotten how long those prior lives actually were.

Heck, it's not as though he was consistent about them in the first place. In "The Ribos Operation," when the Fourth Doctor first met Romana, he claimed to be 756, and she corrected it to 753, saying he'd lost track. So he was already unsure of his age even then. (That is perhaps one of the few reliable figures we have, since it came from someone other than the Doctor.)
 
(That is perhaps one of the few reliable figures we have, since it came from someone other than the Doctor.)

Well, the Time and the Rani figure is the one which has to be right, as otherwise the Doctor wouldn't be able to guess the Rani's pincode correctly. Though that opens up the question of how he knows that she must still be the same age as him, as it implies Time Lords never meet out of order, and always after the same interval for both of them (or to put it another way, Pip'n'Jane really didn't think it through).
 
I suppose that's one possibility. Except that he tried to put the War Doctor behind him and forget that part of his life, so I think he'd be more likely to count his age as the sum total of every life except the War Doctor. Which is why I think he must've forgotten how long those prior lives actually were.

My point is this. In order for the dialog in the scene to make sense, 11's age must roughly correspond with some number greater than the War Doctor's age. If he had said 1200 and the War Doctor thought of himself as 1400, the dialog would make no sense. Instead, it's pretty clear that the War Doctor thought of himself as 800. Now it's entirely possible that there was more than 400 years between the War Doctor and 11, but that's not my point. My point is the 800 years previously. And if it's the War Doctor who counts his age inconsistently, he would know that he couldn't rely on 11's statement of his age (especially since 11 said that he could be completely lying).
 
Ultimately, references to the Doctor's age in the franchise have never been consistent, so it's best not to worry about them too much. They serve what purpose they need to serve in each particular story, and the exact numbers don't really matter because they're so mutable. Kinda like stardates in Star Trek.
 
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