Yep! Couldn’t have put it better myself!
Spoilers The Man in the High Castle season 4
- Thread starter The Nth Doctor
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Yep! Couldn’t have put it better myself!
Yeah, as much as I loved the overall show (and most of the final season aside from the sudden disappearances of Tagomi and Ed), that ending was pure rubbish.
And I say that as someone who is a fervent defender of LOST's and Game of Thrones' series finales.
And I say that as someone who is a fervent defender of LOST's and Game of Thrones' series finales.
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^^^ At least those two made attempts at coherent endings. This one was godawful and a tremendous disappointment for an otherwise superior (IMO) show.
I’m not sure if anything was resolved, at all. Smith is dead, but the American Reich still exists, as well as the Berlin-based original. The Japanese Empire, though weakened, is still wreaking havoc in east Asia and the Pacific. The portal is permanently jammed open, but this just means that one reality can much more easily invade the other, and vice-versa. Is Smith’s second-in-command, who called off the airstrike on San Francisco, supposed to be some kind of step in the right direction? Its all supposed to be blue skies and sunshine now?
Yes, the ending to LOST made a lot more sense compared to this.
The war is over... the war endures. (S1 thoughts, S2 thoughts, S3 thoughts)
The Man in the High Castle is a weird show. It's a series with a schlocky, B-movie premise that it takes deadly seriously - so much so that the first season was perhaps particularly slow and unpleasant specifically to avoid charges of exploitation, though that's just a guess on my part. It's a series that is inherently, fundamentally political, but never quite pulls back and gives us the big picture of what's going on outside the US and Berlin; even when a main character becomes the leader of a territory, we don't get much sense of their day-to-day job. Finally, it's a show that ditches several main characters and plot threads in its fourth and final season, which is likely due in part to onboarding its third showrunner.
But while plot points came and went, the consistent thread throughout the series is a rumination on the daily miseries of life under totalitarianism, where the elites and common people alike are forced to betray their humanity again and again merely to survive. The show premiered in early 2015, months before the current president announced his campaign, and the country has arguably changed since then. What was once a grim but outlandish counterfactual is still that, but its somber tone and dearth of cheap thrills now feels dignified and appropriate. As the show reminds us, there are no unvarnished "good guys": when we get a glimpse of our Nazi-free 1960s America, while the Nuremberg Trials are justly celebrated, we also see segregation and the start of the Vietnam War. There are no easy answers or morally pure Captain Americas to unleash the grapes of wrath and wipe the evil in the hearts of men away. (Though former SHIELD Director Jason O'Mara does provide a reasonable substitute!)
The show pulls a nifty fake-out in its penultimate episode: could the creepy-ass young Führer Wilhelm Goertzmann be less psychotic than he appears? Of course not: his promise of autonomy to Smith and the American Reich is a blatant lie. Smith has no desire to perpetrate another holocaust on the West Coast, but, presented with long-prepared plans for the same, doesn't dare change course, lest he be replaced as swiftly and mercilessly as Hitler, Heusmann, Rockwell, Himmler, Hoover, and who knows how many others. He knows what he should do, but he's just too far gone. Instead of an operatic political climax, then, there are two emotional, family political climaxes, both featuring first-rate performances by Chelah Horsdal as Helen Smith. I dig it.
As for that ending: I actually really liked it. It's random and weird enough to operate on dream logic, and heartening enough to end on a note of hope. Unless the Reich is on the brink of collapse at home in Berlin, which for all we know could be the case, the easy, obvious answer is that even if Whitcroft (who in the 1946 flashback told John Smith they'll join the occupiers for now, but bide their time for rebellion) has secretly remained a halfway-decent American, Goertzmann and the Reich will soon enough give them all fresh hell. So, if that's the alternative, yeah, I'm okay with the conclusion. As I've said before, this series has always felt like a spiritual successor to HBO's Great Depression fantasy drama Carnivàle, exploring what might have happened in a world where Brother Justin triumphed, and this ending felt very much in that vein.
The Man in the High Castle wasn't Amazon's first TV series, but it got a bigger promotional push than any of its shows until the inevitable splash for its Middle-Earth epic... and yet, as seems to happen with all but the biggest series, its final season has largely landed under the cultural radar. Maybe its vision of a fascist America, even an alternate 1960s one, was just too discomforting in the past few years to reach event status. It seemed to have a decent budget throughout, but maybe its failure to soar curtailed the producers' ability to get more epic than the S2 finale. No, protagonist Juliana Crain's arc never quite reached the heights it seemed the show was nudging her toward; in the end, the central spoke in the gear turned out to be Rufus Sewell's magnificently tormented antihero John Smith. The takeaway? Never forget: as the saying goes, it can happen here.
Season One: B
Season Two: B+
Season Three: B-
Season Four: B+
Series overall: B+
I haven't quite finished the season yet. While I like the season as a whole, killing Tagomi was a huge mistake. I can't help but think some negotiation fell through. After all, season 3 showed how he survived several assassination attempts. I miss the old characters too. What through me at the beginning of the season was the abundance of new characters and lack of original ones. However, after a couple of episodes, I was in the swing of things and enjoyed where they were going.
Yeah that whole Tagomi thing came as quite a shock in Ep 1.
And not in a good way.
And not in a good way.
They never really developed the "other side" as well as I wanted. The 4th season totally unnecessary added-on filler crap about the rebellion in the Japanese states was wasted time. The ending was shit. Other than that I loved the series as a whole. This wouldn't be the first series to run out of gas in its last season, and now it's a perfect example of it. LOL
I liked Tagomi too, but his character really had nowhere to go. (And was his girlfriend supposed to be a spy of some kind? They seemed to hint at that, but never went there.)
Other discarded/forgotten plot points:
- The genetic testing of the Smith girls: this is why Helen first took them away, right? But, nada. (Though one would think that someone with as much power as John had by this point could just falsify the record, if necessary.)
- Joe Blake: sure, he died, but the films showed other versions of him, which hinted at his return. (Then there was that brief flashback of him in the finale.) I was sick of him, though, so that's no great shame.
- Juliana's sister: they spent some quality time together, then... poof.
- The films in general. Sure, they were brought by travelers, I guess. They just kinda gradually faded away.
- DJ Qualls. We saw Frank's rising sun image spread to the East Coast, but forgot about him.
- The German socialite reporter. Well, she did get a clear good-bye.
Am I forgetting any?
Other discarded/forgotten plot points:
- The genetic testing of the Smith girls: this is why Helen first took them away, right? But, nada. (Though one would think that someone with as much power as John had by this point could just falsify the record, if necessary.)
- Joe Blake: sure, he died, but the films showed other versions of him, which hinted at his return. (Then there was that brief flashback of him in the finale.) I was sick of him, though, so that's no great shame.
- Juliana's sister: they spent some quality time together, then... poof.
- The films in general. Sure, they were brought by travelers, I guess. They just kinda gradually faded away.
- DJ Qualls. We saw Frank's rising sun image spread to the East Coast, but forgot about him.
- The German socialite reporter. Well, she did get a clear good-bye.
Am I forgetting any?
I actually quite like how the series end. OK. Not the final scene with the portal locked opened. That was unnecessary. But, subtracting that out, it was a fantastic ending. There really was no realistic way to wrap everything up. The global conflagration just wasn't going to be resolved in a nice and neat way. What we got was something more realistic. A step in the right direction.
The Japanese leaving the West coast felt realistic. They were the weaker of the two super powers and were being challenged elsewhere. I liked how they showed the impact of the dishonorable means of maintaining the empire on people like Kido.
But, the real heart of the finale was John and Helen. Helen's line about them being given three chances with kids and messing them all up was chilling. As was John's line about seeing all the different versions of yourself (although that wasn't really explored well) and that he was the worst version of himself. You could see the small steps they took that took them to that point. First it was to get food for their family, and then more safety, etc. Small steps on the road to hell. Each step had a small rationalization on the way. The scenes between the two on the train will be how I remember the series. Great stuff.
So, the geopolitical stuff wasn't wrapped up all nice and neat but the personal stuff (Kido, Julianna, John, Helen) were all very nicely finished. Well done!
But, yeah, that final scene was just unnecessary.
The Japanese leaving the West coast felt realistic. They were the weaker of the two super powers and were being challenged elsewhere. I liked how they showed the impact of the dishonorable means of maintaining the empire on people like Kido.
But, the real heart of the finale was John and Helen. Helen's line about them being given three chances with kids and messing them all up was chilling. As was John's line about seeing all the different versions of yourself (although that wasn't really explored well) and that he was the worst version of himself. You could see the small steps they took that took them to that point. First it was to get food for their family, and then more safety, etc. Small steps on the road to hell. Each step had a small rationalization on the way. The scenes between the two on the train will be how I remember the series. Great stuff.
So, the geopolitical stuff wasn't wrapped up all nice and neat but the personal stuff (Kido, Julianna, John, Helen) were all very nicely finished. Well done!
But, yeah, that final scene was just unnecessary.
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It would have made more sense for people to use the portal to leave the Reich.
Where did those people come from? How did they know the portal was open? Why would they choose to come to the Reich? They are in for one rude awakening.
Ueah, that final bit with the portal was nonsense. I agree that the rest was fine. The resistance was not going to change the world. Too little too late.
And rememby, travel to the other world(s) is possible only for people with no other world counterpart.
Where did those people come from? How did they know the portal was open? Why would they choose to come to the Reich? They are in for one rude awakening.
Ueah, that final bit with the portal was nonsense. I agree that the rest was fine. The resistance was not going to change the world. Too little too late.
And rememby, travel to the other world(s) is possible only for people with no other world counterpart.
Just finished the series. The very end bit with the portal was pretty weak story-telling. These people just spill in like they just got off a bus. No one asks anyone ANYTHING or is freaking out. Why are they all there, like they're lining up at the DMV? There's still going to be a big-ass war when the European Nazis realize the American Nazis are turning against them. And the Nazi bastards still in U.S. aren't going down without a fight.
I was really into it and that portal scene was just.....dumb.
I was really into it and that portal scene was just.....dumb.
I'm only on episode 7, but Amazon should have treated the show better.. There needed to be a 'TV movie' between seasons 3 and 4. Plus I feel like while the show is wrapping up, everything is moving way too quickly. Five seasons and a movie to fill in the time jump would have been best. Or Japan withdraws season 4, Nazis lose season 5, season 6 is the rebuilding. We can't always get what we want.
Or 15 seasons as this show has built an amazing world, and the fourth season expanded that even more (just not the background it should have).
I know there is a lot of complaining around the internets about the ending. I still feel one day we will get a sequel because there are 50 years of stories to tell in the multiverse.
Or 15 seasons as this show has built an amazing world, and the fourth season expanded that even more (just not the background it should have).
I know there is a lot of complaining around the internets about the ending. I still feel one day we will get a sequel because there are 50 years of stories to tell in the multiverse.
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In this fun discussion, Joel de la Fuente (Kido) calls in to reveal the showrunners wanted to make S4 about the disintegration of the JPS, and S5 the disintegration of the GNR, but only got a final S4 renewal. As cool as that plan sounds, however, I'm not too sorry, as the limited ten-episode wrap-up forced the show to focus on the small psychological moments rather than the grand geopolitics, which feels right.
(There's also an interesting parallel drawn between the end of the series and the end of the book.)
.mp3 download of said discussion here.
(There's also an interesting parallel drawn between the end of the series and the end of the book.)
.mp3 download of said discussion here.
Pretty much the consensus.
Bumping an old thread, but....
I think that was the point, a lot of Smith's aides were less ardent Nazis, but all the Nazi fanatics and enablers alongside weren't going to magically go away. The US Nazis based in NY were definetely going to squabble amongst each other following Smith's death (the hardliners that want total domination and genocide of the Americas vs Americanised Nazism with a "human face").
The Empire of Japan was crumbling away and would probably even cease to exist in only 5 to 10 years, but the Eurasian Nazi Empire seemed unfortunately in arguably an stronger position (with a young, cunning, and cruel SS officer that's seized control).
I think that was the point, a lot of Smith's aides were less ardent Nazis, but all the Nazi fanatics and enablers alongside weren't going to magically go away. The US Nazis based in NY were definetely going to squabble amongst each other following Smith's death (the hardliners that want total domination and genocide of the Americas vs Americanised Nazism with a "human face").
The Empire of Japan was crumbling away and would probably even cease to exist in only 5 to 10 years, but the Eurasian Nazi Empire seemed unfortunately in arguably an stronger position (with a young, cunning, and cruel SS officer that's seized control).
As a matter of history, Japan was never that technologically advanced until after WWII, when the US invested billions of dollars to help rebuild them into the tech powerhouse that they became in the 80's. Yes, they had the biggest battleships (and, amusingly, the biggest tanks - the Yamato was awesome but the O-I super-heavy tank was patently absurd), but that was about it. When everyone else was developing semiautomatic long arms and advanced tech, the Japanese infantry were still using Model 99 Arisaka bolt-action rifles (horrible design) and Nambu machine guns (a direct rip of the Brit Bren gun). Without actually losing the war and having America rebuild them, they instead continued on their slower incline, possibly stagnated entirely, and the Germans continued their extreme tech advancements, and they were arguably the most technologically advanced nation at that time. Their depiction of this in the show seems quite dead-on to me.
Yes, but their all conquering, all destroying ideology would hamstring the Nazis eventually (when not only they'll keep denying themselves brilliant creative minds through racist Judeophobia, etc, but even "Aryans" like poor Thomas will have to die, flushing yet more potential talent and invention down the drain for the untenable goal of "racial" purity).
And three increasingly unstable evil empires with access to nukes (and likely other kinds of WMDs) does not bode well for the timeline.
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