The Dominion War Was Handled Badly

[Dayton3]

To me, the Dominion War was a badly handled missed opportunity on DS9.

Why?

1) The Federation was always on the verge of losing the war. About the only time the Federation won was when someone else intervened on their behalf. Including divine intervention.

Now, don't go all "it would not have been exciting if the Federation was winning".

In World War II, the United States was winning in the Pacific Theatre for the last three and a half years of the war. After the Battle of Midway.

But I would wager it was pretty exciting.

2) Jarring inconsistencies in the tone of the series.

We had an episode "The Valiant" where the Jem'hadar were blasting away Starfleet cadets in their escape pods......followed immediately after by an episode featuring Quark wearing a dress.

"Sacrifice of Angels" having Odo and the female changeling getting out of bed after having sex cutting away to Starfleet fighting for its life against the Dominion fleet.

What the hell was that?

3) The dialogue and apparently the tactics shown in the series sound old fashioned even by 21st century standards. Much less the 24th century.
If you are going to write a war into the series, at least give some serious thought to how that war might be conducted.

Why is the Defiant hanging around DS9? After "Sacrifice of Angels" it is clear that the Dominion won't or can't sent extra ships through the wormhole. It is also clear that the Defiant alone couldn't stop them if they did.

So why is one of the Federations most powerful units hanging around a largely worthless old space station for months at a time?

4) Vast numbers of episodes in which the war not only wasn't shown at all (understandable given the expenses of effects) but was NOT EVEN DISCUSSED!!!

It doesn't cost a dime of special effects money to have the characters discuss the battles, the strategy, or bitch about the commanders, whatever.

But the war didn't even cut into anyones holodeck time apparently.

End of rant.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Well this isn't TNZ so I'm allowed to agree with you.

Also, the Federation really contributed greatly to starting the war. There was no indication anyone sat down and said, "What's so bad about us not using the wormhole? Just because we found it doesn't mean we have to use it, and by ignoring its existence, perhaps we could save countless lives."

Instead, it was full steam ahead. Good old Feddies!

 

[Navaros]

I don't agree that they should have "made the Federation win more". It was awesome how the Federation was always on the brink of losing. The Dominion should have won in WYLB, definitely. Woulda made WYLB a million times better.

I agree that the making the Dominion ships in the wormhole just vanish with divine intervention and not even making Sisko pay the penance for it either was a major mishandling.

Odo banging the female changeling was quite out-of-character for Odo. That indeed coulda been handled better. Instead of magically resolved off-screen whilst Odo talks to Kira in the closet all night long. They shoulda revealed later that Odo had his mind controlled or something. Odo banging her coulda been an interesting idea if they had followed-through with it properly instead of getting lazy about that.

I agree it would have been better to feature the Dominion more often, in more episodes. But one thing to keep in mind is that they did the best they could to fight against Berman's opposition. According to RDM, Berman wanted the Dominion War over in 4 episodes, max. So considering what they got away with despite ridiculous constraints like that looming over them, it's quite good, all things considered. But yes, the point remains it would have been a better show if they had the complete freedom to go all-out with the Dominion War.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Hey you didn't even mention the part where they spent two weeks playing baseball in the holosuite. Stupid Dominion should have attacked DS9 then.

And of course, if the Defiant crew were such hot shit, why were they station-based personnel rather than based on the Defiant 100% of the time?

The Dominion should have won in WYLB, definitely. Woulda made WYLB a million times better.

It would avoided the head-scratching way the war did end - the Founder just decided to give up? Because Odo was nice? After the beeotch ordered the extermination of all Cardassians? It would have been far more in character for her to thank Odo for curing her and then turn around and order the Jems to fight to the death, bwahaha.

And the Dominion winning would have made Series V a billion times better because it naturally would have had to have been written by the DS9 crew, and would have dealt with the resistance against the Dominion.

Odo banging the female changeling was quite out-of-character for Odo. That indeed coulda been handled better. Instead of magically resolved off-screen whilst Odo talks to Kira in the closet all night long. They shoulda revealed later that Odo had his mind controlled or something. Odo banging her coulda been an interesting idea if they had followed-through with it properly instead of getting lazy about that.

Assuming Odo was a weak-willed young changeling compared with the Founder, it could make sense. But Odo should not have been trusted after that...and that alone would have made an interesting character development.

 

[Dayton3]

One reason I see the Dominion War as such a huge lost opportunity was that when DS9 did deal with the "big picture-grand strategic stuff".....it worked really well.

Such as "In the Pale Moonlight" and "Inter Armin Elin Silent Leges".

You didn't have to have huge fleets of ships dueling to have drama and excitement.

But those two episodes were so good because you got a real sense that this was a real war with real decisions and real hard choices being made.

And "In The Pale Moonlight" actually has someone come out and tell Sisko "you started this war" which of course was the truth.

 

[scorpius1701]

You know, you put something into words that ive been struggling with for about a week now. The tone being inconsistent. Each episode was either a war episode or a complete stand alone with very little arc progression. It was so jarring watching the show switch back from one to the other. I also would have loved a little recognition that Sisko had a part in the war starting. I think the Dominion defintely played their part but Sisko avoided all responsibility by having a bumch of characters all say that it was the Dominion's fault. Hell, the first thing he does after being ordered out of the GQ is to go back in with a heavily armed invisible ship looking for the Founders. And the end of the war i thought was an enormous copout with the Female just changing her mind. How many times has she linked with Odo and this is the FIRST inkling she gets that the Federation wont kill the other Founders???????? lame. If the writers were up against the wall that badly they should have planned out the season. Episodes like the baseball one and the one where Ezri goes home should have been the first to go. I would have liked Winn to be alive at the end, there was no need for her character to go nuts. Ditto Dukat. He was so much cooler when you werent sure what he was going to do because that was his nature, not you werent sure what he was going to do because the writers made up some magical fire fairies.

 

[SoM]

It would avoided the head-scratching way the war did end - the Founder just decided to give up? Because Odo was nice? After the beeotch ordered the extermination of all Cardassians? It would have been far more in character for her to thank Odo for curing her and then turn around and order the Jems to fight to the death, bwahaha.

But then Garak would have blasted her to goo, probably with Odo following in quick succession, and all the other Founders would have died.

Seriously, for the Founders to live, either she or Odo needed to go back to the ΓQ and cure them. And both of them were in a room with Garak and another Cardassian. (Plus Kira, who wouldn't have killed Odo but would probably have killed her.) The deal was that if she surrendered, Odo would go back and cure them.

Assuming Odo was a weak-willed young changeling compared with the Founder, it could make sense. But Odo should not have been trusted after that...and that alone would have made an interesting character development.

Well, the original plan was for Odo to isolate himself for the rest of the season. Then Rene Auberjonois had problems with that, and they realised they had nowhere to go afterward.

So they kinda panicked and did the "all-nighter in the closet" thing to handwave it away.

 

[Apogeal Alpha01]

Well this isn't TNZ so I'm allowed to agree with you.

Also, the Federation really contributed greatly to starting the war. There was no indication anyone sat down and said, "What's so bad about us not using the wormhole? Just because we found it doesn't mean we have to use it, and by ignoring its existence, perhaps we could save countless lives."

Instead, it was full steam ahead. Good old Feddies!

Then we would have said, "What a bunch of Pansies! A perfectly good wormhole, in our space, and they're afraid of the boogie men on the other side!"

 

[erastus25]

I agree that as soon as the war started the Federation should have just destroyed the wormhole. I know the Bajorans would have freaked the f*** out, but it also would have saved billions of lives.

That being said, I'm currently watching DS9 in its entirety and I quickly realized I had absolutely no idea what the war was even about. The Dominion and the Federation have no actual conflict - they're just fighting because The Founders seem to be angry all the time. The war would have been helped a lot if some actual issue was being battled over, instead of the tired good vs. evil thing just being rehashed.

 

[MyCylon]

I think the war was handled pretty well, actually. Not perfectly, mind you, but I think they did a great job of building the threat, raising the strain on the people on DS9 and showing the consequences of war on people.

I did find season 6 a bit jarring, mind you. But that has more to do with the fact, I think, that there's a mix of fantastic episodes with really, really bad episodes. I don't think the mix of standalones and arcs is the real problem at hand (well, not for me anyway).

I think the criticism of "Take me out to the Holo-Suite" is pretty unfounded btw. At that point in the war, our peole or not on the frontline anymore. Yeah, that can change but for the time, their not immediately in danger of attack.
If you look at soldiers in that kind of a situation they're invariably going to seek a form of pastime. That's a fact.
I also think it's pretty clear that playing baseball is NOT the only thing they're doing. It's just that the episode is focused on that story.

I'll also add that I think that particular story is more important than it's usually given credit for. Yes, it's goofy, yes most of it is simply a fun episode but look at how the seasons developed from S4 onwards:
- S4: War with the Klingons, the threat from the Founders is upped with their attempt to incite war at the end of the season.
- S5: There's reconciliation with the Klingons but the Dominion threat becomes ever more evident (e.g. Cardassia joining the Dominion). Here, we have "In the Cards" as a point where our heroes get a much-needed lift - but not more than that.
- S6: The war is fully blown. Things don't develop well, and our people become less and less happy (Julian is one of the best examples - he's lost his light-hearted spirit and has become almost cynical). There's really a feeling of the 'team' breaking up. One of the major developments is the Romulans joining the effort.
- S7: To me, "Take me out..." is a point where the "team" (much like in "in the Cards") gets a much needed lift and actually becomes a team or family again. And that's much needed with what's to come: The war coming to a head, the battle between the Prophets and the Pagh'Wraiths coming to a head - that's a lot to stomache and IMHO a grand finale.

So, again, no, I don't agree that the war was handled badly.

 

[TeutonicNights]

I agree that as soon as the war started the Federation should have just destroyed the wormhole. I know the Bajorans would have freaked the f*** out, but it also would have saved billions of lives

I think that was no longer possible. They tried when the first wave of Dom ships was about to cross ("By inferno's light"), but Dominion operatives had manipulated the beam emitters so it became impossible to close.

About the war in general: I didn't like how the major cast was involved with about any decisive development
- Sisko and crew destroy the Ketracel White facility.
- Kira securing the Breen weapon
- Worf and crew destroying those crucial shipyards
- Sisko bringing the Roms into the war
- Kira and Odo taking the Dominion command center on Cardassia
- Garak (!) discovering how to beat the weapon platforms at Shin'toka
etc.

I mean it's better than letting those events happen off-screen, maybe they should have shown briefings with maps more often, so that we could really keep check on the progression of the war, dunno.

I actually would have liked the Dominion winning towards the end wreaking havoc at one key Fed world after another. Since Odo ended the conflict like he did, it would have made no difference.

At least, Sisko didn't end the war by vaporizing the founder planet or poisoning the White or something. The downfall of Cardassia made this more "silent" ending palatable.

 

[RobertScorpio]

You know, you put something into words that ive been struggling with for about a week now. The tone being inconsistent. Each episode was either a war episode or a complete stand alone with very little arc progression. It was so jarring watching the show switch back from one to the other. I also would have loved a little recognition that Sisko had a part in the war starting. I think the Dominion defintely played their part but Sisko avoided all responsibility by having a bumch of characters all say that it was the Dominion's fault. Hell, the first thing he does after being ordered out of the GQ is to go back in with a heavily armed invisible ship looking for the Founders. And the end of the war i thought was an enormous copout with the Female just changing her mind. How many times has she linked with Odo and this is the FIRST inkling she gets that the Federation wont kill the other Founders???????? lame. If the writers were up against the wall that badly they should have planned out the season. Episodes like the baseball one and the one where Ezri goes home should have been the first to go. I would have liked Winn to be alive at the end, there was no need for her character to go nuts. Ditto Dukat. He was so much cooler when you werent sure what he was going to do because that was his nature, not you werent sure what he was going to do because the writers made up some magical fire fairies.

Thank God you didn't run the show, because I liked the BASEBALL episode and the one where they saved Vic's. Had it all been about the war then it wouldn't have been STAR TREK. IMO

Robert
Scorpio

 

[smeos]

I think that people who say that Sisko started the war need to watch it again. He goes into the GQ in "The Search", at the orders of Starfleet Command. He put up the minefield, also under their orders. Hell, even in ITPM, his part in the operation (not Garak's assassination) was given the go ahead by Starfleet Command.

Sisko was a soldier, and he followed his orders. Responsibility rests with those who issue said order, not those who carry it out (unless the order is patently illegal, in which case both parties share the blame).

 

[RobertScorpio]

I think that people who say that Sisko started the war need to watch it again. He goes into the GQ in "The Search", at the orders of Starfleet Command. He put up the minefield, also under their orders. Hell, even in ITPM, his part in the operation (not Garak's assassination) was given the go ahead by Starfleet Command.

Sisko was a soldier, and he followed his orders. Responsibility rests with those who issue said order, not those who carry it out (unless the order is patently illegal, in which case both parties share the blame).

I totally agree. The Federation had every right to explore the Gamma Quadrant. The Jem Hedar blew up that ship as a warning, and say as much that is why they did it. To stop the Feds from going there. Well, who the hell are the Jem Hedar/Dominion to tell us to do anything?

Sisko was captured by the Jem Hedar while camping with his son and Quark and Nog. Hardly the 'war monger' some folks make him out to be on this site.

So, after having one ship destroyed, and an unlawful abduction, Sisko takes the Defiant over there to pretty much tell them 'hey, what the fuck are you doing?"

In fact, one could argue the Dominion started that war the moment 1000+ starfleet officers were killed for no reason not even 10 seconds after arriving in the Gamma Quadrant.

Rob
scorpio

 

[Dayton3]

Phil Farrand had it right in one of his Nitpickers Guides when he asked "is this the official Federation policy", he was referring to the episode "The Jem"hadar".

Starfleet sends a ship into a previously unexplored area of space. Another starfaring power warns Starfleet that this is theirs and to stay out.

Starfleet continues to send ships into that area of space anyway.

Farrand noted that "no wonder Starfleet is always at war or on the brink of war".

Space is not like Earth where geography and resources have limits.

Even in 24th century terms, space is effectively limitless. If some star nation like the Dominion wants to say "these 5000 square light years belong to us"....who cares?

Go somewhere else. There are plenty of systems for everyone.

 

[smeos]

The area around the wormhole wasn't Dominion territory, though. On several occasions, it is mentioned that Dominion territory is actually a few light years away from the wormhole.

Either way, the Dominion never made any formal decrees of where their territory began and ended until after they had destroyed a few ships and New Bajor.

The Dominion were just being dicks. If they had approached the first Federation ships and said "This is our space stay out", then there would have been no problems. Instead the just secretly destroyed shipping and kidnapped people. As far as I'm concerned, that's a dick move.

Even the Odyssey was only sent in on a scouting mission, with the possibility of recovering Sisko and co. if it was feasible.

 

[JM1776]

Quite right, on all counts, smeos.

 

[scorpius1701]

You know, you put something into words that ive been struggling with for about a week now. The tone being inconsistent. Each episode was either a war episode or a complete stand alone with very little arc progression. It was so jarring watching the show switch back from one to the other. I also would have loved a little recognition that Sisko had a part in the war starting. I think the Dominion defintely played their part but Sisko avoided all responsibility by having a bumch of characters all say that it was the Dominion's fault. Hell, the first thing he does after being ordered out of the GQ is to go back in with a heavily armed invisible ship looking for the Founders. And the end of the war i thought was an enormous copout with the Female just changing her mind. How many times has she linked with Odo and this is the FIRST inkling she gets that the Federation wont kill the other Founders???????? lame. If the writers were up against the wall that badly they should have planned out the season. Episodes like the baseball one and the one where Ezri goes home should have been the first to go. I would have liked Winn to be alive at the end, there was no need for her character to go nuts. Ditto Dukat. He was so much cooler when you werent sure what he was going to do because that was his nature, not you werent sure what he was going to do because the writers made up some magical fire fairies.

Thank God you didn't run the show, because I liked the BASEBALL episode and the one where they saved Vic's. Had it all been about the war then it wouldn't have been STAR TREK. IMO

Robert
Scorpio

OK, theres nothing wrong with a light hearted episode here and there. The problem is that when they do one, all momentum in the war arc STOPS. They were completely unable to do two things at once like have a lighter episode while making some progress forward in the Dominion arc.

 

[Damask]

OK, theres nothing wrong with a light hearted episode here and there. The problem is that when they do one, all momentum in the war arc STOPS. They were completely unable to do two things at once like have a lighter episode while making some progress forward in the Dominion arc.

In The Cards? As much as I liked the Dominion War I didn't want it to be the focus of every episode in Season 6 and 7. When they did decide to focus on the war arc it counted.

 

[Danoz]

To be honest, and don't get too upset... the smartest thing the Federation/Section 31 did was send Odo back to his people with a virus. The virus is the only reason they won, and it was the only reason Odo had a bargaining chip with the Dominion at all.

Without Section 31, the Alpha Quadrant is Dominion space.