People just sell kids short period. Kids shows, games, etc. are treated poorly. Animation is just a medium. It's the category of kid's entertainment that's regarded as lesser.
Spoilers Star Trek: Prodigy 1x15 - "Masquerade"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
Another good one. Was not expecting Dal to be an Augment hybrid thing.
Not happening here. This is kid-friendly, but very much Star Trek.
The neutral zone is rather thin at certain points, and photon torpedoes are warp capable (we even saw some used as fast and very uncomfortable courier vessels for one person in TNG). That probably goes at the expense of the yield, but with the intent to disable (and no shields in the way) not much explosive force was needed to do the job.
The reaction of Asencia, though possibly partially out of concern for the Diviner's daughter, seems to indicate that she thinks the weapon could be destroyed or damaged by the torpedoes. There must be limits to its capabilities to avoid destruction. A (relatively) big M/AM explosion does the trick apparently.
Now that the spoilers from the casting sheet are all in the open after this episode (with the geneticist and of course, the revelation that Ascencia is doing a Seska, which was very likely if the description of Asencia and the infiltrator were compared): there was a name mentioned for the Vau N'akat infiltrator. To be fair, the leak did not get the name of the geneticist right (maybe changed later in production) so this could be the case for Asencia's alter ego too. See the description in the original leak:
"Our last character is Vezria. I’m honestly not sure what to make of her. The standard part of her description states that she’s in her 30s and hunting for the missing ship by pretending to be an Ensign in Starfleet. She’s very intelligent and is skilled at manipulating people. She’s determined to get revenge for her people and destroy the Federation.
That’s all fairly straight forward, right? Here’s what tripped me up. In order to pose as an Ensign, she’s “disguising her true Vau N’Akat form”
That’s all fairly straight forward, right? Here’s what tripped me up. In order to pose as an Ensign, she’s “disguising her true Vau N’Akat form”
Exactly. I don't quite understand why the spoiler, earlier this week, made such a stir. Apparently there is an allergic reaction to the name Soong, but I think this is a very good explanation for Dal's origins. No doubt, there is more to be learned (how did he end up with Nandi?).
Logically, that shouldn't be the case, or at least not in the original timeline. If his homeworld was not largely destroyed in a civil war (in a way that could be blamed on the Federation by Vau N'akat with certain political/worldviews), he wouldn't have gone back to destroy Starfleet and/or the Federation in the first place. So no time loop would get started. And at least in some case, parallel timelines seem to exist in Star Trek (Janeway created one by coming back from the future and getting Voyager home because of it - not the original outcome without time travel, surely).
It was funny to see Jellico holding Janeway back. But actually, I like admiral Janeway's decisions in this episode very much. She was pretty much proven right, and I think the Romulans were bluffing about war anyway. She did not allow Asencia on her mission, and apparently after some further debriefing of Frex, she and her crew now have a good idea about the weapon. Asencia probably had to break cover because the Dauntless crew and Janeway are quickly getting up to speed - Janeway was practically admiring the "savages"/"terrorists"/criminals/outlaws at the end, and she did not want them to get killed.
Get better soon!I almost forgot about the new episode because I have been so miserable about my fractured ankle. I didn't remember it until a couple of hours ago.
There aren't many "right ships" though. The Protostar is "ludicrously fast", and it's a prototype so probably one of a kind. The Dauntless may be the only ship in Starfleet fast enough to even get to the region of space where the Vau N'akat would expect/hope to find the Protostar, and if not, the only alternative may be a sister ship of the same design/class. And then they have to be able to actually follow the Protostar if it is manned and attempting to evade, given how insanely fast this ship is even in regular warp.
It would be obvious that she needs to be on a Dauntless-class, and not on DS9, a California class or a goddamn Oberth (citing Dr T'Ana). Even a Sovereign or Intrepid isn't near fast enough, nor operating in the right sectors, to get what she wants. And being from the future, knowledge about 50+-year old Starfleet vessels is likely to be common domain (or at least accessible for powerful people who have tech and can throw resources/money around).
And don't forget that those Vau N'akat from the future can hack starfleet computers like it's nothing. Even Gwyn, with the training she had gotten, had little problems with it. Falsifying records and orders is probably well within the realms of probability.
There was foreshadowing, starting with making his origins mysterious and his parents nebulous (presented in the same way as Gwyn getting love from her father: something unattainable). Then there was the big red flag in "asylum", which made it a good possibility that augmentation would be involved.
And outside the direct show, there was the mid-season trailer showing part of the scene with the alien doctor. Which, with the leaked cast list, was very likely to be a geneticist. I was not surprised by the reveal.
And quite well she did! Janeway has been presented at her strongest here. That Asencia decides she has to break cover because things aren't going in the right direction (or not fast enough anyway), is her achievement IMO.
They do very well with this serial plot! As for Okona, I don't think we've seen the last of him. He was probably right to run off, he may even have been a hindrance for the kids rather than a help. Most likely, we see him back when he meets the crew of the Dauntless and he can explain things (though I'm not sure if he knows about the weapon?).
Very much agreed on the merits of this episode.This show aimed at kids continues to surprise me with some of it's deeper plot points. It is trying to introduce the younger audience to some aspects of science and in particular genetics. A very noble goal and one that the producers should be commended on. The theme of just be your best self with Dal, and you do not need to try to impress anyone, is very Trek like. The Romulans were great. It was a really good episode and this ranks up there with the best shows of all the new Treks week after week.
The plot is moving along at a brisk pace. I feel like we need at least 45 minutes a week time wise, the less than 30 we get just doesn't seem like enough. Jellico was great at keeping Adm Janeway in check. Her little Voyager model! We're starting to wrap up some threads with traitor Seska err...Ascenia and the Diviner now. Dreadnok is back which is gonna spell bad news for Dauntless. Okana will return, I don't think he was planning to abandon the kids but was buying some time to try and help, they were just more efficient themselves at getting out of the jam thanks to Dal. Speaking of Dal I'm calling it: he is Chakotay's son via stolen DNA. They even emphasized that his primary base DNA is human. I'm happy that Murf is useful and has a knack for security.
Some minor knit picks that keep it from a 10 for me are the fact that the Romulans did in fact find the Protostar so quickly (apparently so did the Dauntless) and then abandoned it after boarding because the captain was not on board, even though they really had no way of knowing that. Janeway able to launch a couple of torpedoes into the Neutral Zone long range at an unaligned space port in an attempt to destroy the Protostar. I'm sure the warbirds on station nearby were thrilled.
Intriguing idea about Chakotay; it would nicely explain why the Diviner was interested in Dal. Though it would be one hell of a coincidence, unless Vau N'akat were subtly influencing Arik Soong's followers.
About the Romulans: I suspect they were aware of the Protostar the entire time, and quietly observed it (probably knowing it would likely go to "noble isle", a location that must be known to and tolerated by the Romulans) waiting for a chance to pounce without alerting the Dauntless.
The Warbirds didn't react, which make me think that they were bluffing about war to begin with, and that the Dauntless may be an explorer in classic Starfleet style: armed to the teeth. The Dauntless must have enormous power to be at least as fast as the Protostar in regular warp, on top of that having quantum slipstream. If the weapons and shields are equally advanced, maybe the Romulans didn't quite have the advantage after all, or not enough to subdue the Dauntless quickly enough to stop it from warping out.
On the episode itself: for me the best of the first 5 of the back half of season 1 (my first 10). I enjoyed it from start to finish. It also made last week's episode better in hindsight, both with Okona's inclusion paying off in spades and with Gwyn retroactively being proven so very, very, very right to run away from Asencia like a skittish deer. It also seems that the Dauntless crew have been getting the message, with some slight delay, and are starting to catch up to what is going on.
It was nice to see persistent damage (and Jankom and Zero being able to fix it shows that they are no less prodigy than Gwyn and Rok are - Dal not quite being there yet), being a plotpoint even.
Okona was really driving the plot in much of this episode. I had listened to the interview with actor Billy Campbell, where he said that a female character would go over the moon for Okona, causing the main male character to get really jealous. Since he was clearly talking about Gwyn, I was somewhat worried to see Gwyn imitating female Enterprise crew members of the "outrageous Okona" (where just about every woman seemed to instantly fall for Okona, while the male characters were looking on approvingly and almost asking his signature), but luckily it was not nothing like that (and Dal's jealousy was actually pretty funny - he's not used to "sharing" Gwyn with somebody who looks even remotely like competition). For me, mr Campbell absolutely got the do-over he wanted and nailed it. Loving this Okona. I also like Gwyn pouncing at the chance to explore noble isle, since seeing stars and other worlds are a large part of her motivation (and part of what got her so close to smooth talker Dal to start with). And on the point of Dal's and Gwyn's relationship, loved her "you don't need fixing". Also Rok and even Okona being supportive of him. And Gwyn pretty much immediately suspecting what Dal had done.
The Federation's rules were originally presented in a rather negative light, and of course they nicely subverted that by showing the effect of total non-regulation. Very nice, especially since I think Dal's augment status may mean that the Federation policies will also be challenged on the show (later), as Dal will have to overcome a prejudice (see also Una on Strange New Worlds, or Bashir on DS9).
Loved the scenes on the Dauntless, too. VA Janeway was at her best in this episode, on top of the situation and not so easily manipulated by expert manipulator Asencia. When she says "who are those kids", she seems to be positively admiring them.
The events after the Romulans turned up were great; Dal's changes were enjoyable (I see why Billy Campbell described Prodigy as a comedy), but especially the fighting on and around the elevators was fantastic. Apparently, Gwyn's heirloom is capable of resisting romulan disruptors (earlier it wasn't able to stop Drednok's weapon, but then Drednok's blaster is oversized and is likely some type of Vau n'akat - or otherwise futuristic - technology). While I'm generally not wild about Murf's change in form, in this episode he was funny and his capabilities as "security officer" aren't entirely out of whack with his indestructible properties in his original form. I kinda like it that the Protostar now has an unexpected but dire menace for any aliens, Drednok's or other Vau n'akats who may otherwise be able to easily overpower the teens. And that Murf is now a handful for the teens as well, though he seems to be essentially friendly to them.
A small nitpick: while Rok noticing the lightning was a nice touch, they did have plenty of metal in their rucksacks anyway, so why Gwyn deactivating the heirloom would make the difference I don't know.
Asencia's revelation - not only to the audience but soon to the crew - did not surprise me (of course with the benefit of the casting sheet leak, which made it obvious), except for the timing of it. That she has Drednok (or some version of him) is also in line with the appearance of a Drednok clone in the game and with the likely presence of one or more vehicle replicators on the Dauntless. I thought she would wait to reveal herself in the season finale, but apparently not.
The big question is: what will Asencia, or whatever her real name is, do now? Two major possibilities I think:
1. Attempt to take over control of the Dauntless and take the crew hostage. It would match with dr. Noums "soon we will be taking orders from you", but since the goal of Asencia is to get the Protostar and the weapon, using the Dauntless (which the teens are already evading like hell) may not be optimal and she has no obvious way to use the hostages as leverage on Gwyn (as communications are avoided). If so, the attempt may fail or control be retaken relatively early in the next set of five episodes as I don't think VA Janeway will be left without much agency for 5 episodes.
2. Leave the Dauntless (on a shuttle or possible another vessel) with the Diviner, maybe after partially crippling it so it can't follow right away, and attempt to find another way to approach the Protogies (for example, sending a distress call from a location or vessel that is not starfleet related).
It will be interesting to see what the relationship between Asencia and the Diviner is. Are they colleague-timetravel agents on equal footing, is he her superior (or the other way round, though that seems unlikely to me), is he some kind of noble or religious figure or a leader of their faction, are they related,...
I'm guessing that Ascencia will likely attempt again to get Gwyn to cooperate, this time using her true appearance. As a master manipulator, she has to try that, and she can play on Gwyn's concern for her homeworld (and probably joy at meeting a fellow Vau N'akat who is not obviously on the Diviner's side).
The animation in this episode was beautiful as well.
And now I want more...
It was nice to see persistent damage (and Jankom and Zero being able to fix it shows that they are no less prodigy than Gwyn and Rok are - Dal not quite being there yet), being a plotpoint even.
Okona was really driving the plot in much of this episode. I had listened to the interview with actor Billy Campbell, where he said that a female character would go over the moon for Okona, causing the main male character to get really jealous. Since he was clearly talking about Gwyn, I was somewhat worried to see Gwyn imitating female Enterprise crew members of the "outrageous Okona" (where just about every woman seemed to instantly fall for Okona, while the male characters were looking on approvingly and almost asking his signature), but luckily it was not nothing like that (and Dal's jealousy was actually pretty funny - he's not used to "sharing" Gwyn with somebody who looks even remotely like competition). For me, mr Campbell absolutely got the do-over he wanted and nailed it. Loving this Okona. I also like Gwyn pouncing at the chance to explore noble isle, since seeing stars and other worlds are a large part of her motivation (and part of what got her so close to smooth talker Dal to start with). And on the point of Dal's and Gwyn's relationship, loved her "you don't need fixing". Also Rok and even Okona being supportive of him. And Gwyn pretty much immediately suspecting what Dal had done.
The Federation's rules were originally presented in a rather negative light, and of course they nicely subverted that by showing the effect of total non-regulation. Very nice, especially since I think Dal's augment status may mean that the Federation policies will also be challenged on the show (later), as Dal will have to overcome a prejudice (see also Una on Strange New Worlds, or Bashir on DS9).
Loved the scenes on the Dauntless, too. VA Janeway was at her best in this episode, on top of the situation and not so easily manipulated by expert manipulator Asencia. When she says "who are those kids", she seems to be positively admiring them.
The events after the Romulans turned up were great; Dal's changes were enjoyable (I see why Billy Campbell described Prodigy as a comedy), but especially the fighting on and around the elevators was fantastic. Apparently, Gwyn's heirloom is capable of resisting romulan disruptors (earlier it wasn't able to stop Drednok's weapon, but then Drednok's blaster is oversized and is likely some type of Vau n'akat - or otherwise futuristic - technology). While I'm generally not wild about Murf's change in form, in this episode he was funny and his capabilities as "security officer" aren't entirely out of whack with his indestructible properties in his original form. I kinda like it that the Protostar now has an unexpected but dire menace for any aliens, Drednok's or other Vau n'akats who may otherwise be able to easily overpower the teens. And that Murf is now a handful for the teens as well, though he seems to be essentially friendly to them.
A small nitpick: while Rok noticing the lightning was a nice touch, they did have plenty of metal in their rucksacks anyway, so why Gwyn deactivating the heirloom would make the difference I don't know.
Asencia's revelation - not only to the audience but soon to the crew - did not surprise me (of course with the benefit of the casting sheet leak, which made it obvious), except for the timing of it. That she has Drednok (or some version of him) is also in line with the appearance of a Drednok clone in the game and with the likely presence of one or more vehicle replicators on the Dauntless. I thought she would wait to reveal herself in the season finale, but apparently not.
The big question is: what will Asencia, or whatever her real name is, do now? Two major possibilities I think:
1. Attempt to take over control of the Dauntless and take the crew hostage. It would match with dr. Noums "soon we will be taking orders from you", but since the goal of Asencia is to get the Protostar and the weapon, using the Dauntless (which the teens are already evading like hell) may not be optimal and she has no obvious way to use the hostages as leverage on Gwyn (as communications are avoided). If so, the attempt may fail or control be retaken relatively early in the next set of five episodes as I don't think VA Janeway will be left without much agency for 5 episodes.
2. Leave the Dauntless (on a shuttle or possible another vessel) with the Diviner, maybe after partially crippling it so it can't follow right away, and attempt to find another way to approach the Protogies (for example, sending a distress call from a location or vessel that is not starfleet related).
It will be interesting to see what the relationship between Asencia and the Diviner is. Are they colleague-timetravel agents on equal footing, is he her superior (or the other way round, though that seems unlikely to me), is he some kind of noble or religious figure or a leader of their faction, are they related,...
I'm guessing that Ascencia will likely attempt again to get Gwyn to cooperate, this time using her true appearance. As a master manipulator, she has to try that, and she can play on Gwyn's concern for her homeworld (and probably joy at meeting a fellow Vau N'akat who is not obviously on the Diviner's side).
The animation in this episode was beautiful as well.
And now I want more...
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The Dal storyline ending with the Soong bit was a bit of a thud for me. It didn't need to be answered and it really didn't need to be included to feed his feelings of feeling lesser than Okona or wanting to be better. The doctor could have just given him some kind of other genetic treatment.
All I could hear was Senator Kinsey from SG1 in Jellico. Not a bad thing, just that he made that character so unlikeable that it is engrained in my memory.
All I could hear was Senator Kinsey from SG1 in Jellico. Not a bad thing, just that he made that character so unlikeable that it is engrained in my memory.
Arik Soong was busier than we thought. But hey, another ENT reference that further establishes humanity's forbidden tampering with the genome is always welcome.
Still not sure how I want to rate this episode but I did enjoy most of it.
Still not sure how I want to rate this episode but I did enjoy most of it.
Well, you have to understand. Soong references Trek lore while Garrovick references Trek lore. I trust you'll see the difference.
That's the beauty of a true predestination paradox - it never starts. It simply exists, without beginning and without end.
It’s also possible that The Diviner is from an alternate future with a “bad” ending and is coming into the Prime timeline hoping to create a world where Solum survives.
Then it would be like the Temporal Cold Wars, with different parallel timelines coming into the Prime timeline attempting to conquer it, while those alternate timelines still co-exist with our own.
Okona ran like the colors in the wash on the wrong temperature setting. I'm sure he'll be back but it was nice to see that he hasn't changed much since TNG.
I can't argue with this.
I seems to be a bit more difficult for the middle age crowd who did not grow up with this type of animation style to truly give it a chance. As undeserved as that may be. Even though I rank the animated Treks better than DSC and PIC right now I cannot get my father to even give them a look. Old school. Cartoon = kids = shit. Even though he enjoys Avatar. Go figure.
I had serious doubts about his suitability for a ship full of children.
He was even bragging to them about the events of "The Outrageous Okona(TNG)." To be fair things in that episode did in the end turn out for the best but still, most of that episode is Okona getting in trouble and almost igniting an interplanetary war.
simply because threatening dire consequences isn’t the same thing as actually committing to that threat. See Putin and his multiple threats of using atomic weapons.
Not everything on that screen was in Dal’s DNA
https://twitter.com/GoodAaron/status/1596163142408617987?s=20&t=mwRXGt_7mUTESWOYxfu_Tg
https://twitter.com/GoodAaron/status/1596163142408617987?s=20&t=mwRXGt_7mUTESWOYxfu_Tg
People need to go watch things like Gargoyles.I can't argue with this.
I seems to be a bit more difficult for the middle age crowd who did not grow up with this type of animation style to truly give it a chance. As undeserved as that may be. Even though I rank the animated Treks better than DSC and PIC right now I cannot get my father to even give them a look. Old school. Cartoon = kids = shit. Even though he enjoys Avatar. Go figure.
A
Amaris
Guest
Hell yes. Gargoyles is still fantastic.
Animation today would never handle the kind of subject matter that Gargoyles did in "Deadly Force". Awesome stuff.
https://gargoyles.fandom.com/wiki/Deadly_Force
https://gargoyles.fandom.com/wiki/Deadly_Force
The rules in place regarding children's television today would have prevented an episode like Deadly Force from even being written today. Even back then, as the wiki article notes, it was considered very controversial. I believe reruns of it were edited so that Elisa was no longer bleeding after she was shot, though she is still bleeding in other episodes which use footage from Deadly Force in their Previously On recap.
Indeed, looking back on the 90s children's programming pushed the envelope with shows like Gargoyles or the animated Batman series in ways that modern children's shows aren't allowed to. There were a lot of reactionary policies that got put in place in reaction to the Columbine and other school shootings that resulted in things like children cartoons can no longer show bullets being fired (though they are okay with lasers).
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