Slavery

[SFRabid]

Aviva, I'm trying to understand what you are trying to accomplish. You criticize the 7 of 9 character because you think is was created just for sexism, but you don't think Jerry Ryan attractive. You acknowledge that Trip and Archer get's more "exposure" but you don't think anyone notices.

I'm starting to believe that you think it is ok for men to be portrayed as sex objects, and actors such as Trinneer and Bakula to have to run around on camera in their underwear, but not women. How can you take offence when an actress who diets and works out shows her body on screen and then assume no one notices when an actor diets and works out and then shows his body?

Enterprise, like the 4 series before, picked a lot of "beautiful people" to be on the cast, starting with Kirk and Uhura in TOS.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

I'm starting to believe that you think it is ok for men to be portrayed as sex objects, and actors such as Trinneer and Bakula to have to run around on camera in their underwear, but not women. How can you take offence when an actress who diets and works out shows her body on screen and then assume no one notices when an actor diets and works out and then shows his body?

Uh, did you miss this post upthread where I told everyone to knock off the passing judgment? Or this post about how a confrontational attitude is not a good idea?

Stop. This. Now. Please.

 

[Broccoli]

So, the same way all sexy women have been treated in Trek since the original series?

Is Kira portrayed as a "sex object"?

Bunny suit - season 4 and onwards.

So if slavery, particularly sex slavery is so morally wrong, I wish ENT had actually got some balls and said so.

They did.

Yes, they made it very clear when Archer declared that the oppression of a class of sentient individuals -- based on gender -- was subject to relativism. If you're in Singapore, it's a bad thing. If you're the new BFF of an alien captain with access to Fantastic! Technology! it's "tough luck Chuck."

Probably forgot about that one because the cogenitor isn't sexy.

Considering a good majority of this thread dealt with "sex slavery", "Cogenitor" didn't immediately spring to mind.

But in any case, the there was a clear slant in the episode was that what was happening with the cogenitor was wrong. And I actually liked that episode because it showed the situation in a very shades of gray way.

Archer was somewhat blinded by his newfound friends. That last scene with Archer and Trip, I think, was played very well. Archer was pissed at Trip, but, the way I interpreted the scene, Archer was almost mad at himself because he knew that Trip was right. Another theme of the episode, at least to me, was "what do you choose to ignore to make allies?"

I do not know if I am articulating myself very well here. I wrote a post a few months back about this very same topic. If I can find it, I'll bring it up as, from what I remember, it was better written.

It was established in TOS that orion women were sold as slaves. If theyd been shown otherwise, youd be whining about how off canon it was, just like a lot of people do with every other aspect of Ent.

Probably true.

 

[commodore64]

Aviva, interesting! I think Borderlands was very much: Slavery is wrong. I think Bound and Rajiin were: Okay, like you know, slavery is wrong and all ... but aren't slave girls hot?! Let's face it, Rajiin and Bound were really badly written and poorly executed anyway. The actress for Rajiin seemed like a mob bosses ditsy girlfriend and Bound could've been funny or cute, but seemed like the cast thought the script was dumb. (They were right.)

I think as many have pointed out, a lot of science fiction is aimed at men and probably under their belly buttons and above their knees. As a woman, I think it's a crying shame. I have a feeling guys would enjoy even T'Pol if she were always dressed in the Vulcan robes that she probably should've worn since the show began. (I mean, I think guys are imaginative.)

Someone indicated guys were objectified, too. I don't think the men were objectified all that much. We didn't get any butt shots (still seen as taboo). I think the most we saw were guys in tight-fitting boxers and even then it was fairly modest other than Connor's unfortunate shot in Broken Bow which surfaces here occasionally.

But, Aviva, you hit on something that is crucial: good writing. Regardless of the "sexy" and sexist plots, good writing is essential for anyone to like a plot. Mudd's Women was well written. All the Enterprise guys, including our dear Mr. Spock, had their tongues hanging out at the chicks. But the plot was about self-esteem. It turned out really all these ladies needed to be attractive was to feel attractive. Bound was about women choosing to be slaves so they could be in charge -- sex as a power. I find that idea fairly cringe-worthy and hope (maybe naively) that's not the case.

 

[gblews]

I have a feeling guys would enjoy even T'Pol if she were always dressed in the Vulcan robes that she probably should've worn since the show began. (I mean, I think guys are imaginative.)

Trust me, we're not.

 

[JiNX-01]

^ Well, you could always buy a copy of Maxim.

 

[commodore64]

Trust me, we're not.

Ha! I think Jinx is onto something -- aren't there outlets for that? (Why does it end up in science fiction?)

 

[gblews]

^ Well, you could always buy a copy of Maxim.

I missed a T'Pol Maxim layout???!!!

But seriously, I saw nothing wrong with the catsuit and the blue silk jammies or the tiny tank tops and undies in the D-Con chamber.

And I do remember that many of you ladies had no problems with the several bare chested and bare legged shots of the guys during seasons 1-3 (and IaMD in season 4). Come on now, you remember. Ah, such a double standard.

 

[JiNX-01]

^ Well, no. Maxim didn't publish a T'Pol layout...

But they've published enough -- perhaps more than enough -- of Jolene... which is the same thing without the ears...

 

[commodore64]

But seriously, I saw nothing wrong with the catsuit and the blue silk jammies or the tiny tank tops and undies in the D-Con chamber.

Not to mention stunt double butt.

And I do remember that many of you ladies had no problems with the several bare chested and bare legged shots of the guys during seasons 1-3 (and IaMD in season 4). Come on now, you remember. Ah, such a double standard.

Captain Archer has a beautiful chest, but I would be just as happy without seeing it. Isn't that what Playgirl and episodes of the terrible chimp episode (blech!) from Quatum Leap are for? Hence Jinx's comment about Maxim.

 

[Mach5]

But seriously, I saw nothing wrong with the catsuit and the blue silk jammies or the tiny tank tops and undies in the D-Con chamber.

Not to mention stunt double butt.

That was so cool.
Wish it was Jolene though...

 

[gblews]

But seriously, I saw nothing wrong with the catsuit and the blue silk jammies or the tiny tank tops and undies in the D-Con chamber.

Not to mention stunt double butt.

Are you talking about the scene in Harbinger? If so, as I continue to point out, Jolene stated that it was her in the scene. She said it in that Stuff Magazine article you were quoting a while back.

Captain Archer has a beautiful chest, but I would be just as happy without seeing it. I

Oh really? I seem to remember a lot of complaining about a certain scene where the Captain's chest was was almost shown and then wasn't. I think it was referred to back then as, "the chest that got away". Boy did that thread go on for a while. The kvetching.

And you didn't mind a missed opportunity to see Scott's chest? Uh, you weren't one of the ones in that thread complaining were you??? Why, you didn't start that thread, did you?

 

[Mach5]

But seriously, I saw nothing wrong with the catsuit and the blue silk jammies or the tiny tank tops and undies in the D-Con chamber.

Not to mention stunt double butt.

Are you talking about the scene in Harbinger? If so, as I continue to point out, Jolene stated that it was her in the scene. She said it in that Stuff Magazine article you were quoting a while back.

And I remember someone quoting Connor saying that it was a double.

 

[JiNX-01]

Not to mention stunt double butt.

Are you talking about the scene in Harbinger? If so, as I continue to point out, Jolene stated that it was her in the scene. She said it in that Stuff Magazine article you were quoting a while back.

And I remember someone quoting Connor saying that it was a double.

Shore Leave 2006. I was there when he said that.

here are two shots of T'Pol from the back.

The Crossing:

Harbinger:

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

Are you talking about the scene in Harbinger? If so, as I continue to point out, Jolene stated that it was her in the scene. She said it in that Stuff Magazine article you were quoting a while back.

And I remember someone quoting Connor saying that it was a double.

It's entirely possible for both statements to be correct.

Jolene films her shot alone against a green screen.

Connor films his shot on set with a body double.

The two pieces are combined optically for the final shot.

Why the shot would be constructed as an fx shot, I don't know. One of the actors was unavailable? The scene had to be reshot for some reason or other?

 

[Disillusioned]

The backsides don't really look all that similar to me, though. Not that it's a big deal or anything to me, but there is a definite difference. Maybe the two of them, both being married, weren't comfortable with the shot together like that since she would have had to be fully nude, as opposed to just topless (which could be covered with pasties or tape) in one of the earlier episodes.

 

[Mach5]

It's entirely possible for both statements to be correct.

Jolene films her shot alone against a green screen.

Connor films his shot on set with a body double.

The two pieces are combined optically for the final shot.

Including the kiss? I mean, if Jolene was there to shoot the kiss, then shooting the disrobing wouldn't be much of a problem, wouldn't it?

The thing that bothers me the most is why would someone like Jolene (professional model since her teens) be uncomfortable undressing in front of the cast and crew?

 

[Middleman]

Jolene films her shot alone against a green screen.

Connor films his shot on set with a body double.

The two pieces are combined optically for the final shot.

Why the shot would be constructed as an fx shot, I don't know. One of the actors was unavailable? The scene had to be reshot for some reason or other?

No doubt in my mind that shot was a green screen shot. Makes no sense to me either why they would shoot it that way, other than for "modesty" reasons.

However, the look on Connor's face is priceless. That has to be the goofiest look I've ever seen on a guy.

 

[Mach5]

If modesty was the reason, actresses are known to cover their private parts with tape and stuff... Like Megan Fox in "Jennifer's Body"

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

Maybe the two of them, both being married, weren't comfortable with the shot together like that since she would have had to be fully nude, as opposed to just topless (which could be covered with pasties or tape) in one of the earlier episodes.

That makes sense. Even "Damage" didn't have full body shots.

Including the kiss? I mean, if Jolene was there to shoot the kiss, then shooting the disrobing wouldn't be much of a problem, wouldn't it?

The kiss was another camera setup (two, actually, one for each angle). It was probably done hours earlier or later, or even on a different day. Production schedule for a typical TV episode is eight working days.

The thing that bothers me the most is why would someone like Jolene (professional model since her teens) be uncomfortable undressing in front of the cast and crew?

A still-photo shoot with the photographer and maybe a few other people on set (makeup, hair) is a very different atmosphere from a nude scene on a TV production set, which usually has 80-100 crew (mostly guys) on set. Even if they have the set cleared of all but essential personnel (typical for motion picture nude scenes), that's still a good knot of people watching you drop your robe.

Also, as actresses progress in their careers and gain some clout, they choose not to do what they might have done years earlier (such as nude scenes on a set full of crew people), when they were just starting out. Or, as Disillusioned says, their views will change after they marry. I have heard of more than one actor who prefers not to do steamly love scenes in films because he is married.

Everyone has their own views and comfort level. The director usually does all he/she can to make the actress comfortable, when shooting a scene like this.