Slavery

[P0sitr0nic]

It was established in TOS that orion women were sold as slaves. If theyd been shown otherwise, youd be whining about how off canon it was, just like a lot of people do with every other aspect of Ent.

Boo hoo, an alien race doesnt share your opinions. Trek never took the high road, but at least its alien cultures werent always just aspects of human cultures.

 

[Timo]

Would we really have wanted Trek to "address" slavery? After all, the only way that could have happened within the bounds of Trek tradition would have been if a single planet in the entire galaxy still practiced slavery, and our heroes came, saw, and won (TOS) or retreated with their own morals intact (TNG).

Which would have sent the exact wrong message about the issue, which is that slavery is extant and present, not an isolated misdeed conducted by a cigarette-smoking cabal.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Slavery's bad, right?! We'd all agree that it's one of the most heinous things that human beings could ever do to each other.

And yet the ENT writers revel in a lot of slavery orientated episodes, particularly sex slavery, without any hint of apology. I'm thinking of the Orions in 'Bound' and the kinky slave market in 'Rajiin', as well as other examples. Not to mention the way T'Pol is treated throughout the show, as a voyeuristic sex object.

So if slavery, particularly sex slavery is so morally wrong, I wish ENT had actually got some balls and said so. Watching the episodes, it's the opposite message that comes across. They could still have included some 'sexy scenes' for their ratings without making a mockery of the issue of women being sold into a life of prostitution and degradation just to add to the shows titilation factor.

"particularly" sex slavery? You are saying this variety of slavery is worse than any other? That's quite an eye-opener. Som,ewhat offensive to all the other slaves, is it not?

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Great, now you're preaching too...

(sure, trafficking is a major issue in today's world, but come on, this is STAR TREK, for the love of God)

I was simply trying to make a point, a point that you don't seem to think has any value.

Roddenberry's concept of Star Trek was an idealistic one, when humanity had left behind racism, poverty, war, hunger, etc. What about sexism? Don't you think sexism is a major consideration too? In the 60s, when TOS was made, sexism wasn't relevant and accusations of sexism in the portrayal of females in TOS would have been a laughable subject, as women on TV were indeed seen as sex objects in that time period.

Is it still a laughable subject now, though? I'm really inspired by some of the women in Trek, like Janeway and Kira. That's the kind of Trek I see as really enjoyable and really inclusive. I see males and females in the Star Trek universe as being entirely egalitarian, both in the portrayal of the characters and also in the way the viewers are treated.

You've obviously forgotten the cases where Starfleet officers would speak of "women and children", showing us that a male life is still valued less than a female life even in the 24th century.

 

[DiSiLLUSiON]

Seeing the reactions about a "sexed up Voyager from the moment Seven of Nine came on board", I have this to say:

It's understandable some women might be intimidated by Jeri Ryan. Fortunately, not every woman measures her competency, and compares it to that of other women, by the size of her boobs.

In other words; Jeri Ryan is an intelligent, attractive woman who can act. If she was a good addition to the Voyager team, is up for grabs. But she surely didn't 'sex up' Voyager; there was hardly any sexual imagery on Voyager -- before or after, so any opinions to the contrary are completely biased and based upon one's own self-image or the lack thereof.

"Oh Mgawd! There's a woman with boobs on the screen! Well she must be very unintelligent then! Of course it's for the men, any attractive woman must be there to sex up the show! They've ruined it by not casting only older women! It's not women-friendly anymore!" Yeah, right.

 

[Aviva]

[

"particularly" sex slavery? You are saying this variety of slavery is worse than any other? That's quite an eye-opener. Som,ewhat offensive to all the other slaves, is it not?

The point I was making was that the ENT writers wrote in a lot of sex slave storylines, in my opinion to satisfy what they believed were the desires of some of the viewers. Some of the attitudes expressed in this thread has really reinforced this opinion.

If you want to deliberately miscontrue the point I was making then fine, you do that. I'm a new poster here; I'll just get the impression that this board is deliberately unfriendly to different points of view.

 

[JiNX-01]

^ We're not all so argumentative. Please stick around. Most of us are pretty friendly.

 

[Aviva]

Seeing the reactions about a "sexed up Voyager from the moment Seven of Nine came on board", I have this to say:

It's understandable some women might be intimidated by Jeri Ryan. Fortunately, not every woman measures her competency, and compares it to that of other women, by the size of her boobs.

In other words; Jeri Ryan is an intelligent, attractive woman who can act. If she was a good addition to the Voyager team, is up for grabs. But she surely didn't 'sex up' Voyager; there was hardly any sexual imagery on Voyager -- before or after, so any opinions to the contrary are completely biased and based upon one's own self-image or the lack thereof.

"Oh Mgawd! There's a woman with boobs on the screen! Well she must be very unintelligent then! Of course it's for the men, any attractive woman must be there to sex up the show! They've ruined it by not casting only older women! It's not women-friendly anymore!" Yeah, right.

I'm sorry but how very, very patronising.

Jeri Ryan is not a good actress in my opinion and was cast simply because she was a sexy model wearing a skin-tight padded costume. I find her deadpan delivery and performance boring, dull and tedious. Just imagine if Data or Tuvok were cast with ex-male models rather than competant actors who could carry off the complexities and shades of their characters? Can you imagine? That level of deadpan is very difficult to achieve.

Seven Of Nine would have been excellent if cast with an actress similar to the one who played the Borg Queen. There is a huge difference between a trained and experieced actor and a model. A model is merely born with their height/photogenic-ness. There's no talent involved.

 

[JiNX-01]

Really? I thought Jeri was excellent on Voyager. She was particularly good in "Someone to Watch Over Me," "Drone" and "Body and Soul" when her delivery during her "possession" by The Doctor was dead on.

And in fairness, she was breaking ground as "rescued" Borg.

 

[DiSiLLUSiON]

I'm sorry but how very, very patronising.

Yes, I can be unfriendly at times, don't take it personally, please.

Jeri Ryan is not a good actress in my opinion and was cast simply because she was a sexy model wearing a skin-tight padded costume. I find her deadpan delivery and performance boring, dull and tedious. Just imagine if Data or Tuvok were cast with ex-male models rather than competant actors who could carry off the complexities and shades of their characters? Can you imagine? That level of deadpan is very difficult to achieve.

Seven Of Nine would have been excellent if cast with an actress similar to the one who played the Borg Queen. There is a huge difference between a trained and experieced actor and a model. A model is merely born with their height/photogenic-ness. There's no talent involved.

That's your opinion, and of course you're entitled to it. I found her acting to be just as good (or bad) as most other actors in Star Trek shows, with a few exceptions. But even if she were such a bad actor, where is the link with "Sexying up the show"? I do believe that if she were a bad actress who was also an ugly woman, you couldn't have made that comparison.

As such, the remark is rather sexist of you; you are essentially saying that because she looks attractive, she is there for her boobs only. I find it offensive to say attractive people must be exceptionally good at their jobs, while unattractive people can be mediocre.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

Stop moralizing, It's getting old.

Stop moralising? Have you any idea how many thousands of women and girls are forced into sex slavery in our current enlightened world? Why shouldn't that be a genuine storyline treated seriously on Trek, rather than mocked?

As for 'eye candy', well, personally, I would prefer those viewers who want to watch porn to just watch porn and leave Star Trek to genuine Star Trek fans.

Great, now you're preaching too...

I was simply trying to make a point, a point that you don't seem to think has any value.

It was established in TOS that orion women were sold as slaves. If theyd been shown otherwise, youd be whining about how off canon it was, just like a lot of people do with every other aspect of Ent.

Boo hoo, an alien race doesnt share your opinions.

"particularly" sex slavery? You are saying this variety of slavery is worse than any other? That's quite an eye-opener. Som,ewhat offensive to all the other slaves, is it not?

Fortunately, not every woman measures her competency, and compares it to that of other women, by the size of her boobs.

In other words; Jeri Ryan is an intelligent, attractive woman who can act. If she was a good addition to the Voyager team, is up for grabs. But she surely didn't 'sex up' Voyager; there was hardly any sexual imagery on Voyager -- before or after, so any opinions to the contrary are completely biased and based upon one's own self-image or the lack thereof.

"Oh Mgawd! There's a woman with boobs on the screen! Well she must be very unintelligent then! Of course it's for the men, any attractive woman must be there to sex up the show! They've ruined it by not casting only older women! It's not women-friendly anymore!" Yeah, right.

I'm sorry but how very, very patronising.

Good gravy! Everybody chill out, already.

All of you, cut out the passing judgment and making blanket negative assumptions about entire groups.

Each of you has a right to your opinion, but don't expect everyone to agree with your opinion, and don't get bent out of shape when it happens. Civility makes for a much better atmosphere than condescension and derision.

 

[Aviva]

That's your opinion, and of course you're entitled to it. I found her acting to be just as good (or bad) as most other actors in Star Trek shows, with a few exceptions. But even if she were such a bad actor, where is the link with "Sexying up the show"? I do believe that if she were a bad actress who was also an ugly woman, you couldn't have made that comparison. As such, it's rather sexist of you, if I might say so.

Where's the link with sexing up the show?! Her costume for a start. Why does it have to sexualise her to quite that degree? Kes also didn't wear a Star Fleet uniform but her 'civvies' weren't like Seven's. Why wasn't Seven dressed similarly, in ordinary 24th century female dress, as she's trying to de-Borg herself? Why not a Star Fleet uniform after a while (or even sometimes)?

As for acting, I notice all bad/good acting, irrelevant of who the perpetrator is. It's funny that you've assumed that I find Jeri Ryan to be attractive. I actually don't. I find her to be a bit carboard cut-out like. Really beautiful actresses in my opinion, give really beautiful performances. For that reason, I would name actresses like Juliette Binoche as being my idea of beautiful. In Trek, I find Kira, Janeway, Troi, in fact all the main women characters to be beautiful and lovable in their own different ways.

 

[P0sitr0nic]

Stop moralizing, It's getting old.

Stop moralising? Have you any idea how many thousands of women and girls are forced into sex slavery in our current enlightened world? Why shouldn't that be a genuine storyline treated seriously on Trek, rather than mocked?

As for 'eye candy', well, personally, I would prefer those viewers who want to watch porn to just watch porn and leave Star Trek to genuine Star Trek fans.

Fortunately, not every woman measures her competency, and compares it to that of other women, by the size of her boobs.

In other words; Jeri Ryan is an intelligent, attractive woman who can act. If she was a good addition to the Voyager team, is up for grabs. But she surely didn't 'sex up' Voyager; there was hardly any sexual imagery on Voyager -- before or after, so any opinions to the contrary are completely biased and based upon one's own self-image or the lack thereof.

"Oh Mgawd! There's a woman with boobs on the screen! Well she must be very unintelligent then! Of course it's for the men, any attractive woman must be there to sex up the show! They've ruined it by not casting only older women! It's not women-friendly anymore!" Yeah, right.

I'm sorry but how very, very patronising.

Good gravy! Everybody chill out, already.

All of you, cut out the passing judgment and making blanket negative assumptions about entire groups.

Each of you has a right to your opinion, but don't expect everyone to agree with your opinion, and don't get bent out of shape when it happens. Civility makes for a much better atmosphere than condescension and derision.

Im just saying, I dont expect an alien culture to share human morality, and thank gods that Trek, and Ent, didnt play it as if they all had to.

 

[Aviva]

Im just saying, I dont expect an alien culture to share human morality, and thank gods that Trek, and Ent, didnt play it as if they all had to.

Don't you think that Trek is a reflection of our own society and culture, though? The alien side of it is just a metaphor.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

^ We're not all so argumentative. Please stick around. Most of us are pretty friendly.

(with aplologies if it seems I'm going on about it):

As am I. I meant no offense. I find it quite bewildering, and somewhat upsetting, that I am seemingly viewed as hostile or "argumentative". I did not intend my posts to be hostile, and looking back over them I do not see how I have been rude, aggressive or unwelcoming. My comments were not meant as accusation, and I find being categorized as unfriendly a rather unfamiliar experience, particularly here. This is what happens when I forget to use the smiley face emoticon to reassure everyone I'm being friendly. In future, I will simply refrain from responding to threads from members I am unfamiliar with.

 

[Aviva]

(with aplologies if it seems I'm going on about it):

As am I. I meant no offense. I find it quite bewildering, and somewhat upsetting, that I am seemingly viewed as hostile or "argumentative". I did not intend my posts to be hostile, and looking back over them I do not see how I have been rude, aggressive or unwelcoming. My comments were not meant as accusation, and I find being categorized as unfriendly a rather unfamiliar experience, particularly here. This is what happens when I forget to use the smiley face emoticon to reassure everyone I'm being friendly.

OK.

Look - a smiley face.

In future, I will simply refrain from responding to threads from members I am unfamiliar with.

But surely not speaking to new members isn't the best course of action, either.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

(with aplologies if it seems I'm going on about it):

As am I. I meant no offense. I find it quite bewildering, and somewhat upsetting, that I am seemingly viewed as hostile or "argumentative". I did not intend my posts to be hostile, and looking back over them I do not see how I have been rude, aggressive or unwelcoming. My comments were not meant as accusation, and I find being categorized as unfriendly a rather unfamiliar experience, particularly here. This is what happens when I forget to use the smiley face emoticon to reassure everyone I'm being friendly.

OK.

Look - a smiley face.

That's very nice of you. My apologies again if my comment seemed hostile (re-reading it again I can see how it looks accusationary. I sometimes forget other posters can't see my face or read my mind!)

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

That's your opinion, and of course you're entitled to it. I found her acting to be just as good (or bad) as most other actors in Star Trek shows, with a few exceptions. But even if she were such a bad actor, where is the link with "Sexying up the show"? I do believe that if she were a bad actress who was also an ugly woman, you couldn't have made that comparison. As such, the remark is rather sexist of you, if I might say so.

Where's the link with sexing up the show?! Her costume for a start. Why does it have to sexualise her to quite that degree? Kes also didn't wear a Star Fleet uniform but her 'civvies' weren't like Seven's. Why wasn't Seven dressed similarly, in ordinary 24th century female dress, as she's trying to de-Borg herself? Why not a Star Fleet uniform after a while (or even sometimes)?

As for acting, I notice all bad/good acting, irrelevant of who the perpetrator is. It's funny that you've assumed that I find Jeri Ryan to be attractive. I actually don't. I find her to be a bit carboard cut-out like. Really beautiful actresses in my opinion, give really beautiful performances. For that reason, I would name actresses like Juliette Binoche as being my idea of beautiful. In Trek, I find Kira, Janeway, Troi, in fact all the main women characters to be beautiful and lovable in their own different ways.

Kids, this is the Enterprise forum. If you want to discuss Voyager characters or Trek actresses, it would be better for you to open up a thread in Voyager or GTD.

This is what happens when I forget to use the smiley face emoticon to reassure everyone I'm being friendly. In future, I will simply refrain from responding to threads from members I am unfamiliar with.

Or you might try the Preview button, and see if your post might be misinterpreted by someone else.

Consider doing that with members you know, as well. All posts, no matter whom they address, are likely to be read by the people who visit a thread, and those posts will contribute to the overall positive or negative atmosphere of a thread or forum.

Inflammatory, emotion-charged language, a confrontational or dismissive attitude, stating personal opinions as if they are facts--any of these, whether deliberate or inadvertent, are usually not a good idea if the goal is civil, respectful discussion.

This goes for everyone, not just you, DN.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

This is what happens when I forget to use the smiley face emoticon to reassure everyone I'm being friendly. In future, I will simply refrain from responding to threads from members I am unfamiliar with.

Or you might try the Preview button, and see if your post might be misinterpreted by someone else.

Consider doing that with members you know, as well. All posts, no matter whom they address, are likely to be read by the people who visit a thread, and those posts will contribute to the overall positive or negative atmosphere of a thread or forum.

Inflammatory, emotion-charged language, a confrontational or dismissive attitude, stating personal opinions as if they are facts--any of these, whether deliberate or inadvertent, are usually not a good idea if the goal is civil, respectful discussion.

This goes for everyone, not just you, DN.

Of course. Again, my apologies. I go out of my way to try and contribute to a friendly, polite community here, and I apologise if I slipped this time!

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

I just wouldn't want to see you or anyone quit posting, dude.