Should the producers have left Lon Suder alive?

[I am not Spock]

I've been rewatching VOY season three on DVD recently, and I've been enjoying it so far. But one thing has always bothered me. I didn't like it when they decided to kill off Suder in 'Basics, part II'. Jeri Taylor, IIRC gave the excuse that they 'couldn't find a way to redeem him, or integrate him with the rest of the crew'. If anything, that's good thing! Conflict makes for good TV drama.

People frequently complain about the potential of the Maquis crewmembers being wasted on VOY, but I think the storyline with Seska was mostly successful. Killing off Suder was a big mistake in my opinion. Brad Dourif is a good character actor, and I wouldn't have minded keeping him around throughout season three. Heck, they should have made him a regular character.

 

[Anwar]

Taylor was notoriously against the darker tone that Michael Piller (the Exec Producer before her) wanted for the show. Taylor wanted a lighter show with a crew that got along, and to do holonovel stories. She didn't take the premise seriously.

Which is why she rewrote so much of Piller's story in "Basics" (they were supposed to still be in Kazon space, the baby be Chakotay's, Suder alive, etc).

 

[I am not Spock]

^ Really? My respect for Jeri Taylor just dropped down a notch. I remember reading interviews with her, and thinking that she was on the right track, and the series was in good hands. I would have preferred to see Piller's vision of 'Basics'. Too bad. Maybe her insistence for having a crew that got on was what caused Piller to leave the writing staff.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Hells bells! She did what??!!

You see although as it would seem (I've read her painful novels.) that she believed in happy families the alternative we were left with after her absence was a void of discontinuity and reboots.

Suder was the most interesting person on the ship!

 

[Anwar]

If the UPN suits had just let Braga do what he had planned out for VOY after he took over from Taylor, the show would've started living up to even a bit of its potential (the full season "Year of Hell", no more replicators, etc).

 

[exodus]

Would Brad Dourf want to stay as a reaccuring character on the show? With his successful career, why would he?

 

[Anwar]

Did he have a successful career back in 1995? Why would he have agreed to be in a few episodes to begin with?

 

[exodus]

Anwar said:
Did he have a successful career back in 1995? Why would he have agreed to be in a few episodes to begin with?

He's had a successful one since his first acting job in "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" in 1975. If you check his career, he's never been out of a job. He was even the voice of Chucky in all "Child's Play" films not to mention Grima Wormtounge in Lord of the Rings.

As for why, paycheck just like everybody else.

 

[Capt_Piett]

Yes, the writers could have kept him around and used him more. But really; what could they have done that they didn't do in the episodes he was in so that he wouldn't have become a one trick pony; i.e. man struggling against his demons, etc. I think that, in his action in Basics II, he redeemed himself for his past actions in the earlier episode.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Yes, the writers could have kept him around and used him more. But really; what could they have done that they didn't do in the episodes he was in so that he wouldn't have become a one trick pony; i.e. man struggling against his demons, etc. I think that, in his action in Basics II, he redeemed himself for his past actions in the earlier episode.

You could say that about anyone. In fact that's what they said about Kes. The imaginative creative writers of Voyager admitted they were niether imaginative nor creative so it was easier to remove a character than be imaginative and creative with "her".

He didn't "redeem" himself.

Oh, Lon saved the ship, and probably remembered well for it. Forgiven even? but his crime was senseless murder. I suppose you could argue that purposeful murder is more noble, but for all his attempts to become a botanist, what the crew of Voyager needed right then, was a cold blooded murderer, although what they got was a warm blooded murderer, Lon pushed down his reservations and betazoidity to kill for Janeway. It's really warped that he's redeemed for doing exactly what he was reviled for doing in the first place.

Brad is a fantastic actor, and he's capable of pulling down good money in the movies if he wants to wiggle it that way, but if he liked Voyager there's no reason to say that
he couldn't have made a couple more appearance if Jeri hadn't killed him off, and even then they could have worked around it, if he enjoyed being on Voyager? It takes a week or less to film on of these things depending on how much time you're going to be on camera and when the cast party is being held? It's a minor umbrage to insure some immortality.

There was a point in the 90s where Sabertooth rang the door bell at Xaviers mansion and asked to be "redeemed" and then the writers didn't know what to do with him after that that he was just left in the Danger Room for the next couple months as people metaphorically prodded him with sticks.

This guy killed 8 kazon in 6 seconds. It's a dirty crime there isn't a Lon Suder day celebrated by the Voyager crew every year!

 

[Anwar]

exodus said:

Anwar said:
Did he have a successful career back in 1995? Why would he have agreed to be in a few episodes to begin with?

He's had a successful one since his first acting job in "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" in 1975. If you check his career, he's never been out of a job. He was even the voice of Chucky in all "Child's Play" films not to mention Grima Wormtounge in Lord of the Rings.

As for why, paycheck just like everybody else.

Well, being a recurring character is certainly different from signing a 7 year contract like the main cast. I doubt he'd mind since it wouldn't be like him being in very episode.

Anyways, keeping Suder around sure would've made the episode with the Devore a lot more interesting.

 

[Guy Gardener]

That's what I never understood about Lon being a betazoid. If he was fullblooded, then he should have had more dynamic telepathic abilities than Tuvok, that he could've done something similar tot he meld which fixed him up all by himself, or the telepathic doctors from Betazed could have put him in line at an early age? Unless he was a gimp? Which was never mentioned so if he was a fullpowered telepath... Why didn't Kes go to him for lessons too since he could obviously teach her things which a "mere" Vulcan could not about telepathy?

 

[Anwar]

Might have something to do with him being a maniac murderer. No teacher is better than a bad teacher.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You know, by stressing different words in "No teacher is better than a bad teacher" it can actually mean the opposite than what you meant it to mean.

Meld was half way through the second season. Even if he rejected her application before that, to study at the Lon Suder School of Culture and Clairvoyance... Just the conversation of Suder turning her down because he can't be bother putting up with a perky pretty preppie peroxide punk during his off hours would of been highly enjoyable. She might have approached Vorrik too? Janeway said "Vulcans" plural when she was helping Tuvok purge his space syphilis, asking him why she chose him to be his guide? But the list given tot he Devore didn't mention any other Vulcan teeps.

What about all the other emotional time bombs in the Maquis suppressing their desire to head out on killing sprees apart from Tuvok? Why was he singled out, when statistically he was probably just the first of many such unfortunate accidents to be happening down the line. Well second, if you count B'Elanna breaking Carey's nose.

 

[Anwar]

As for what you said about Kes earlier, I agree. But I do think that stuff about her char wasn't thought out as well or utilized as well as it could have been for the show.

I mean, it would have been more interesting if Kes started out as physically 10 years old, then in S2 she'd be a teenager, then by S3 an 18 year old, then S4 a young woman in her early to mid twenties, etc.

Of course she'd mentally age at an accelerated rate to go with her body so there's potential in stories with the crew dealing with someone who was only a child to them a few years ago now being an adult who's just as mature and intelligent as any of them.

This would mean having 3-4 differeant actresses play Kes but I think it would've worked out.

See, there's nothing inherently wrong with the chars the writers "ran out of ideas with", they just had to have put more thought into them.

 

[Navaros]

I agree he should have been left alive. I felt his death was done in an extremely hackneyed way. They didn't even show it IIRC, which made it extra lame. Besides that, he was by far the best actor amongst the main crew of Voyager.

 

[Guy Gardener]

He jumped out of a jefferies tube. Shot 8 guys in 6 seconds. changed the engineering controls so that the back flush would work. Then one of the guys he'd shot, with his dying breath, comes back to life and shots lon in the back who dies as he's still punching in the last controls for the back flush to work as he dies.

None of that is exaggeration and copletely happened.

 

[Navaros]

Ah, my bad then. That scene was either cut out of the TV version I saw of it or I got a phone call at that scene and had to leave the room briefly or something like that. Sorry for the inaccurate recollection there.

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

I am not Spock said:
I've been rewatching VOY season three on DVD recently, and I've been enjoying it so far. But one thing has always bothered me. I didn't like it when they decided to kill off Suder in 'Basics, part II'. Jeri Taylor, IIRC gave the excuse that they 'couldn't find a way to redeem him, or integrate him with the rest of the crew'. If anything, that's good thing! Conflict makes for good TV drama.

People frequently complain about the potential of the Maquis crewmembers being wasted on VOY, but I think the storyline with Seska was mostly successful. Killing off Suder was a big mistake in my opinion. Brad Dourif is a good character actor, and I wouldn't have minded keeping him around throughout season three. Heck, they should have made him a regular character.

Wow, that says a lot about Voyager's writers and the central mentality that went into to the writing of the show. Most writers would love the dramatic tension, since conflict IS the core of all drama. In fact, it's one of those rather obvious things, many writers would have a field day with the idea of an irredeemable darker killer among these happy go lucky Starfleet officers.

Can you imagine the VOyager writers suddenly took control of Buffy? Oops, good bye Angel and Spike in early season 2, we can't think of a way to integrate you killer vampires with the rest of the cast! GOod bye Scorpius on Farscape, cant think of a way to use you!!! See ya Baltar and Boomer-Cylon on Galactica, can't figure out a way to use you!

 

[exodus]

Stone_Cold_Sisko said:

I am not Spock said:
I've been rewatching VOY season three on DVD recently, and I've been enjoying it so far. But one thing has always bothered me. I didn't like it when they decided to kill off Suder in 'Basics, part II'. Jeri Taylor, IIRC gave the excuse that they 'couldn't find a way to redeem him, or integrate him with the rest of the crew'. If anything, that's good thing! Conflict makes for good TV drama.

People frequently complain about the potential of the Maquis crewmembers being wasted on VOY, but I think the storyline with Seska was mostly successful. Killing off Suder was a big mistake in my opinion. Brad Dourif is a good character actor, and I wouldn't have minded keeping him around throughout season three. Heck, they should have made him a regular character.

Wow, that says a lot about Voyager's writers and the central mentality that went into to the writing of the show. Most writers would love the dramatic tension, since conflict IS the core of all drama. In fact, it's one of those rather obvious things, many writers would have a field day with the idea of an irredeemable darker killer among these happy go lucky Starfleet officers.

Can you imagine the VOyager writers suddenly took control of Buffy? Oops, good bye Angel and Spike in early season 2, we can't think of a way to integrate you killer vampires with the rest of the cast! GOod bye Scorpius on Farscape, cant think of a way to use you!!! See ya Baltar and Boomer-Cylon on Galactica, can't figure out a way to use you!

I think the writers for Voyager wanted the conflict to come externally rather than internally, thus all the big bads of the week each ep.

That all changed once the show go a soft reboot and brought a Borg onboard.