Regarding Nero and Romulus

[Nusent]

Hi, it's my first time here... I am a huge fan of the star trek franchise and it never occurred to me to join a forum for this.

Now, as the title says... I have been thinking about this for a long time ever since the scene of Nero and Pike on the ship. When Nero says that Romulus was destroyed and Pike tried to correct him (not knowing he was from the future). This made me think...

Why did Nero accidentally go back into time and vow revenge on Spock and Vulcan? Why wouldn't he simply go and find Romulus and maybe warn the Romulans about the supernova? Or at least see his wife?

This just made my brain hurt.

Any thoughts?

 

[Xerxes1979]

There is nothing to save. His wife most likely is pretty young for a Romulan so she would not exist in the massively altered timeline.

Had not the Narada inconviently arrived at the one moment that would most change the future, I would have suggested that the crew simply go into stasis sleep ala the IKV Tang.

Also Nero is insane.

 

[UFO]

...
Why did Nero accidentally go back into time and vow revenge on Spock and Vulcan? Why wouldn't he simply go and find Romulus and maybe warn the Romulans about the supernova? Or at least see his wife?

If I follow your question:

• He is in the past of a branch universe so as Xerves1979 said, his wife probably would not yet be born and may never be.
• To have a chance of saving Romulus or seeing his wife he would have had to travel between universes and forward in time.
• But, given his command of the 24th Century cutting edge physics necessary to predict Spock Prime's arrival, this seems eminently feasible.
• However doing so wouldn't have served the needs of the plot. All hail the Plot.

Had not the Narada inconviently arrived at the one moment that would most change the future, I would have suggested that the crew simply go into stasis sleep ala the IKV Tang.

Good idea but how would NuNero have reacted? Nero Prime would have had to meet her first I guess.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Future of Next Gen Lit??

Nero and his wife may not have been born yet in 2258. Or they may have been children.

I think Nero knew he could never go home. As he said to Pike, he was trying to create a future free of the Federation because "only then will she be truly safe" But then what? I doubt he planned to wait around, kill his younger self and then (re)marry his wife. I guess he wanted Past Nero and Past Mandana to have a happy life without the Federation which Future Nero believes intentionally allowed Romulus to die.

Pike, Kirk and Old Spock know about the supernova (probably Starfleet too, now) so maybe in this 2287 Romulus will be saved... but since we're 129 years before all that, we viewers may never find out.

 

[Timo]

When Nero was yelling at Pike, he seemed to be saying that he had already saved Romulus: "I prevented genocide!".

So perhaps he had already dealt with the supernova (easy to do with the red matter Spock had delivered to him), and was now proceeding with the second step of his plan, the eradication of the Federation. Good for future Romulus, but not necessarily vital.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[UFO]

When Nero was yelling at Pike, he seemed to be saying that he had already saved Romulus: "I prevented genocide!".

So perhaps he had already dealt with the supernova (easy to do with the red matter Spock had delivered to him), and was now proceeding with the second step of his plan, the eradication of the Federation. Good for future Romulus, but not necessarily vital.

Timo Saloniemi

That's a possibility but I think he is referring to his belief the Federation and in particular Spock, deliberately let Romulus die. At least that is what he goes on to explain after making that comment about preventing genocide. It seemed like his response was an attempt to justify one genocide by saying that in doing so he prevented another. Destroying the supernova would not provide a justification. I think he is saying that destroying Vulcan has prevented their future betrayal.
.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Also, he probably didn't really understand what happened, plus the PTSD....Nero was a miner, not a rocket scientist. Poor Spock, being bested by a moron.

 

[Nusent]

Thanks for the excellent replies guys, it makes a lot of sense right now.

 

[Timo]

It seemed like his response was an attempt to justify one genocide by saying that in doing so he prevented another. Destroying the supernova would not provide a justification. I think he is saying that destroying Vulcan has prevented their future betrayal.

The downside there is that destroying Vulcan won't prevent anything - quite to the contrary, it will ensure the destruction of Romulus, because Vulcan is the only source in the universe for the vital red matter. Of course, Nero now has his own lifetime supply of red matter so that's no problem. Nevertheless, if Nero's exclamation is to be taken as anything but an emotional yet counterfactual outburst, we probably have to believe he has already done something to actually ensure Romulus won't be lost (say, quelled the anger of the supernova a century in advance, or at least made the necessary preparations).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[UFO]

The downside there is that destroying Vulcan won't prevent anything - quite to the contrary, it will ensure the destruction of Romulus, because Vulcan is the only source in the universe for the vital red matter. Of course, Nero now has his own lifetime supply of red matter so that's no problem. Nevertheless, if Nero's exclamation is to be taken as anything but an emotional yet counterfactual outburst, we probably have to believe he has already done something to actually ensure Romulus won't be lost (say, quelled the anger of the supernova a century in advance, or at least made the necessary preparations).

Timo Saloniemi

Good point! I wish I had thought of that! However the difficulty is a supernova can’t commit genocide.

The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

Somewhere along the line there has to be a sentient agency involved. Destroying the supernova would get rid of one particular means by which the Vulcans could destroy Romulus (from Nero’s point of view) but without destroying Vulcan he hasn’t dealt with the "real villains". Of course we know Nero blames Spock and the Federation for inaction at the very least.

We don’t know what the writers had in mind but to me his response still scans more as a misguided attempt at justification. Otherwise why say it with such emotion? Why use the word genocide? The statement "I prevented genocide by destroying the supernova." as a rejoinder to Pike’s accusation just doesn’t seem to fit the context very well. Unless the Vuclans are somehow deliberately responsible (including Spock), the loss of Romulus is just a natural disaster. Perhaps we are both reading too much into it. Maybe it just doesn't make sense. Certainly the writers haven’t made themselves clear in more that one place.

 

[Pauln6]

Nero could have dispatched a shuttle to Romulus with a sample of red matter and details of the Hobus star. He may have saved Romulus and have given them a massive advantage over the Federation by instigating an arms war that only Spock Prime can alleviate.

 

[UFO]

Nero could have dispatched a shuttle to Romulus with a sample of red matter and details of the Hobus star. He may have saved Romulus and have given them a massive advantage over the Federation by instigating an arms war that only Spock Prime can alleviate.

Not bad, perhaps they can save that plot idea for the third movie (probably a bit late for the second, unless ... ).

Yes, he certainly could have done that but why not make it a little clearer in the movie if that was the writers' intention when they wrote the line "I prevented genocide!"? Why make it look like an attempt to mitigate Pike's charge of genocide? His next few comments seem like he is trying to explain his behaviour.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Really, I think we all put too much thought into understanding his reasoning.

 

[Nusent]

Really, I think we all put too much thought into understanding his reasoning.

Indeed, I guess losing his wife made him snap and went insane. Plus, all those years waiting for Spock probably made him even more deranged.

 

[Captrek]

The film does not address the question of whether Nero takes care of Hobus before attacking Vulcan. Nothing in the film rules it out. So just assume he does, or assume he doesn't, whichever way you think the story works better.

If Nero doesn't take care of Hobus, that doesn't mean the galaxy is going to be destroyed in 129 years. Spock Prime knows a lot about red matter and how it was produced. With his knowledge and 129 years in which to develop the technology, the Federation will surely be able to develop the technology in time, even without Vulcan. Spock Prime would probably consider it "cheating" to give 24th-century technology to the 23rd-century UFP, but with this much at stake he would make an exception. Remember, it's not only Romulus that is threatened by Hobus.

 

[Timo]

However the difficulty is a supernova can’t commit genocide.

Very good point, and very good followup argument.

Who can? Nero could indeed be thinking that there was an active conspiracy to ensure the death of Romulus in a natural disaster, or even that the disaster was engineered by evil forces. And what had Nero done that could plausibly have been directed against such evil forces, before yelling to Pike about it?

Well, he had killed Vulcan, which is probably what he's referring to, even though his language and logic is confused (and forces us debate it here, which the writers probably wouldn't have wanted). But he had also engaged the Klingons in massive combat, seemingly for no reason. And if we can trust our Starfleet heroes and cronies with their facts, he first acquired red matter from Spock, and then, an hour later, engaged the Klingons and defeated their fleet.

We lack explanation as to why Nero would want to attack the Klingons. Perhaps this seemingly unjustified attack was related to him "preventing genocide", too? Could be he thought the Klingons were involved in the future calamity. Could be he thought the Klingons were attempting genocide against Romulus in the 2250s, and he included defeating them in his collection of good deeds to do in that timeframe. Or could be that defeating the Klingons was a necessary step in thwarting the evil plans of the Vulcans - possibly because the supernova star was in or near Klingon territory and could only be neutralized by neutralizing the Klingons first.

Remember, it's not only Romulus that is threatened by Hobus.

Spock might be a bit poetic about it, actually thinking that loss of Romulus would have galactic repercussions. We don't know if he considers his mission a partial success (because he stopped the supernova even if after loss of Romulus) or a complete failure (perhaps he had to use his primed red matter anyway, lest it blow on his face, even though all was already lost that was going to be lost).

The latter would be the more real-worldish option, because real supernovae don't threaten galaxies, and it's a bit difficult to see how fictional ones could, either. The former might be writer intent, though. But we're faced with intriguing evidence there, such as why Spock only had seconds to spare after loss of Romulus. Surely there would be minutes or hours until the wave hit some other star system, the way it was depicted? Why were the seconds following the loss of Romulus critical? Could it be Spock was actually doing relatively small-scale stuff, and trying to save Remus or other outlying worlds in the Romulan system, from the explosion of a very local supernova?

In a way, the smaller scale would make things even more personal for Nero...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ravager]

I suggest reading the prequel comic to the movie.

It explains allot but also confuses you even more.

 

[Timo]

I've browsed through it online. Some flat out impossibilities there; Nero couldn't have done all those things between the loss of Romulus and the jump to the 23rd century, because the movie specifies that he fell into Spock's black hole right after Spock had created it and had embarked on his return journey to Vulcan. Only minutes or perhaps seconds to spare there, not the days depicted in the comic.

From that it follows e.g. that Nero's ship can't have undergone a major transformation thanks to newly installed tech (no time for the installation after loss of Romulus, no reason for it before) or that Nero can't have obtained major Romulan cultural relics such as his staff (he wouldn't have been given it before the destruction and he had no time afterwards). What emerges from the time conduit at the beginning of the movie is what Nero had back when he was a no-name miner, i.e. a standard Romulan mining platform with a random crew in possession of random items and motivations.

The rest of the weirdness of the comic book is allowed for, but (and because it) has no real impact on the movie story.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

If Nero doesn't take care of Hobus, that doesn't mean the galaxy is going to be destroyed in 129 years. Spock Prime knows a lot about red matter and how it was produced. With his knowledge and 129 years in which to develop the technology, the Federation will surely be able to develop the technology in time, even without Vulcan. Spock Prime would probably consider it "cheating" to give 24th-century technology to the 23rd-century UFP, but with this much at stake he would make an exception. Remember, it's not only Romulus that is threatened by Hobus.

The only thing the film confirms is that Spock knows how to launch the Red Matter. Should we assume the pilot of the Enola Gay knew how to build an A-bomb?

 

[Trekkie2]

Just supposing, but:

It's quite probable that the Romulan military got ahold of a device (Genesis) and buggered themselves. Since the Federation and the Klingon Empire are quite aware that that type of device is not to be fooled with, they would be obligated to warn the Romulans. Maybe they didn't, maybe they did, but the star blew up anyway. Spock would have quite a lot of knowledge and he was always willing to assist the Romulan population in peace efforts. It's also quite possible he knew that the red matter created a time travel type space anomaly and saw an opportunity. Maybe he wanted to go back in time and change something, because he did say that he failed, but never specifically said what.

Nero got through the anomaly first and did his damage, but if Spock had wanted to change something, the event could have occurred in the years before, but most likely after Kirk was born. Since Nero was capable of predicting when Spock would come through, though it took him a long time to figure it out, Spock would have some idea, give or take a decade, when he needed to come through. Was he trying to prevent the events on Tarsus IV from happening? Doesn't seem important enough, and Kirk was thirteen years old. Was it something else he was trying to prevent?

Just supposing.....