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Question: Why did the separatists want to, well, separate?

Skipper

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This question came to me after the last episode of The Mandalorian where (spoiler?) an old separatist wanted to continue fighting for the cause. (Mind you I've only seen the movies and the new series, not Clone Wars or anything.)

From what I've seen in the movies, the planets that were part of the Old Republic had a lot of autonomy (I mean, Naboo was a monarchy). The Republic didn't even have an army.

I asked myself then
a) why did people not want to be part of the Republic, even in a violent way? It didn't exactly feel like a dictatorship to me.
b) if people wanted to leave the Republic so much, why didn't the Republic, well, just let them? Historically the use of force in such situations has never ended well.
c) Whoever wanted to separate in the movies was shown as the bad guy (actually it was all an evil plan by Palpatine etc). But what did ordinary people think? Was it favorable? against? Indifferent and felt like a victim of a war that didn't concern them?
d) Is it possible that if a planet didn't want to no longer be part of the Republic it couldn't, well, just do it? Did it have to go to war? Were there no democratic means?
 
I'm sure there's a giant wookiepedia article about it, but just spitballing, I assume there was unrest throughout the Republic because of all the political corruption going on. Sidious then used that unrest to generate the idea that these systems are better off without the Republic and its cancerous political system. Using Dooku, a well-regarded and well-spoken figure, he even convinced these systems they'll be protected by these droid armies that are conveniently available. Never mind they're owned by even more corrupt people. Don't pay attention to that.

Basically, people were fed up with the Republic's indolence and corruption, they made a deal with the literal devil. And it backfired.

As for why the Republic wouldn't just let them leave - because that's giving up power. As a political whole, the Republic was too big and too corrupt to ever give up part of its hoarded goods.

And even if the Senate and whatever other bodies were ok with it, Palpatine wanted a war to tear down what democracy was left. He couldn't just allow any star system to secede without a fight in the name of peaceful coexistence.
 
Padme, and every other Queen of Naboo, was a democratically elected Queen.

No royal blood line. Not a Monarchy.

You didn't think it off, that Padme was demoted in the next movie to Senator?

This question came to me after the last episode of The Mandalorian where (spoiler?) an old separatist wanted to continue fighting for the cause. (Mind you I've only seen the movies and the new series, not Clone Wars or anything.)

From what I've seen in the movies, the planets that were part of the Old Republic had a lot of autonomy (I mean, Naboo was a monarchy). The Republic didn't even have an army.

I asked myself then
a) why did people not want to be part of the Republic, even in a violent way? It didn't exactly feel like a dictatorship to me.
b) if people wanted to leave the Republic so much, why didn't the Republic, well, just let them? Historically the use of force in such situations has never ended well.
c) Whoever wanted to separate in the movies was shown as the bad guy (actually it was all an evil plan by Palpatine etc). But what did ordinary people think? Was it favorable? against? Indifferent and felt like a victim of a war that didn't concern them?
d) Is it possible that if a planet didn't want to no longer be part of the Republic it couldn't, well, just do it? Did it have to go to war? Were there no democratic means?

A. The Separatists didn't want to pay their taxes.
B. The Republic didn't want to stop collecting their taxes.
C. Everyone in the Movies worked for Sideous, who is not the leader of the Separatists.
D. Can Texas leave America?
 
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I'm sure there's a giant wookiepedia article about it, but just spitballing, I assume there was unrest throughout the Republic because of all the political corruption going on. Sidious then used that unrest to generate the idea that these systems are better off without the Republic and its cancerous political system. Using Dooku, a well-regarded and well-spoken figure, he even convinced these systems they'll be protected by these droid armies that are conveniently available. Never mind they're owned by even more corrupt people. Don't pay attention to that.

Basically, people were fed up with the Republic's indolence and corruption, they made a deal with the literal devil. And it backfired.

As for why the Republic wouldn't just let them leave - because that's giving up power. As a political whole, the Republic was too big and too corrupt to ever give up part of its hoarded goods.

And even if the Senate and whatever other bodies were ok with it, Palpatine wanted a war to tear down what democracy was left. He couldn't just allow any star system to secede without a fight in the name of peaceful coexistence.

The Separatists had their own Senate, that had nothing to do with Sideous.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Separatist_Senate
 
I'm sure there's a giant wookiepedia article about it, but just spitballing, I assume there was unrest throughout the Republic because of all the political corruption going on. Sidious then used that unrest to generate the idea that these systems are better off without the Republic and its cancerous political system. Using Dooku, a well-regarded and well-spoken figure, he even convinced these systems they'll be protected by these droid armies that are conveniently available. Never mind they're owned by even more corrupt people. Don't pay attention to that.

Basically, people were fed up with the Republic's indolence and corruption, they made a deal with the literal devil. And it backfired.

As for why the Republic wouldn't just let them leave - because that's giving up power. As a political whole, the Republic was too big and too corrupt to ever give up part of its hoarded goods.

And even if the Senate and whatever other bodies were ok with it, Palpatine wanted a war to tear down what democracy was left. He couldn't just allow any star system to secede without a fight in the name of peaceful coexistence.
Ok, I understand the politics, but why were the Jedi so excited to fight the Separatists? I never remember in the movies that one of them said: "Uh, hold on, perhaps these people have a point?". And by the way, while what you said is perfectly reasonable, it seems to me that it was clearly illustrated in the movie that SEPARATISTS BAD! without many nuances.

Sure, Palpatine using the Separatists excuse to create the Empire was undoubtedly seen as a bad thing, but it seems to me that everyone agreed that the Separatists shouldn't, well, separate. Maybe not everyone agreed on the methods, but even the most "righteous" characters (from Yoda to Obi-Wan) it seems to me that they were absolutely convinced that the Republic should remain intact, whether the worlds that were part of it wanted it or not.

I understand that the films wanted to be just an adventure where space sorcerers were seen fighting and certainly not delving into political topics, but I suspect that in some other series the subject has been dealt with in a more in-depth way and I'm missing something...
 
Most of the Separatists were blinded by what Dooku was telling them. He ramped them up long before the Clone Wars, they kept their Senate and people isolated from the actual war with droids and mercenaries doing the bulk of their fighting. And the droids didn't just stay in Separatist space, they went on to go after Republic worlds. But again, that's on Dooku's lead. If the Separatists had hung back and JUST guarded their planets that might have given the Jedi more pause but they were out going after the Republic from day one.
 
yeah the separatist senate didn't know Dooku was a dark jedi/sith.

The did have legitimate concerns with the republic. There's an entire arc dedicated to that in Clone Wars.

Padme befriends and separatist senator.
 
b) if people wanted to leave the Republic so much, why didn't the Republic, well, just let them? Historically the use of force in such situations has never ended well.

I'm sure there are all kinds of justifications for this one, but the real answer basically boils down to Palpatine. The Republic didn't let them secede for the same reason they wanted to secede in the first place, because it's all part of Darth Sidious' plan to start a war, militarize the Republic, exterminate the Jedi and establish the Empire.

As to why the Jedi did the fighting, the answer is two-fold. The obvious component is Dooku. There is a reason he reveals himself to be Sith prior to the outbreak of meaningful violence. The reemergence of their ancient enemy is what keeps the Jedi in the fight even if they have doubts. I think they see themselves as freeing the Separatists from Dooku's manipulations, but they were the ones being manipulated all along.

The other component is that, by this point, the Jedi have become essentially puppets of the Senate and tools of the Republic. Palpatine exploits this to make them look like war-mongering zealots and frame them for a coup as pretense for Order 66. But it really is a sign of the moral decay and societal disconnect that is inherent in the weakening of the Jedi. They are meant to be OF the people. Out among them, working for them even in the face of entrenched institutions. But they have become ABOVE the people, too focused on their isolated spiritual concerns and only actively taking part in the galaxy when invited by the Senate/Chancellor.
 
It's one of the more commonly misunderstood aspects of the conflict, but the clues are there if one pays attention: in short, both sides were convinced that the other side was the aggressor, and both sides thought they were pre-emptively defending themselves. This is all of course entirely by Sidious' design. And despite assumptions to the contrary, the Jedi *really* didn't want to be involved in any of this. They practically had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the role as Generals.

First, it's probably best to unpack some of the events of AotC. To start with, the opening crawl lays out the basic set-up: -
There is unrest in the Galactic
Senate. Several thousand solar
systems have declared their
intentions to leave the Republic.

This Separatist movement,
under the leadership of the
mysterious Count Dooku, has
made it difficult for the limited
number of Jedi Knights to
maintain peace and order in
the galaxy.

Senator Amidala, the former
Queen of Naboo, is returning
to the Galactic Senate to vote
on the critical issue of creating
an ARMY OF THE REPUBLIC
to assist the overwhelmed Jedi....

While it's light on specifics, from this we can infer that increased tensions, unrest and civil strife has been building for a while. The Jedi are becoming stretched thin trying to keep a lid on things, hence the call in the senate to vote on the military creation act to increase security, and restore order (in theory.)
Padme says she's been working for a full year to defeat the military creation act, asserting that if the army is approved, the Separatists would interpret it as aggression and it would push the Republic into a civil war. Tensions have to have been already very high before even that, so this isn't just some recent flair-up of unrest but a sea-change in galactic politics that's probably been gaining inertia for most of the last decade.

Remember that this is no small movement; it's *thousands* of systems that have already declared an intention to leave, with (according to Dooku) tens of thousands more likely to follow if they do. That's a non-trivial percentage of the entire Republic proposing to split the galaxy asunder, potentially causing utter bedlam to galactic trade. Whole planetary economies could be wiped out, supply chains would evaporate overnight, billions would starve, and there'd be a refugee crisis on a scale unseen since the Sith conquests. Galactic civilization itself could collapse. So pretty high stakes, and ample motivation for the Republic to make sure they don't just leave and take half the galactic economy with them in the process, no?

By this point the perception of the Separatists is that the Jedi had become little more than enforcers for a corrupt Senate that no longer represented the best interests of the people. Any time they protest unfair treatment by the senate, or try and stand up for themselves, the Jedi are sent in to "keep the peace".
They felt they needed an army to protect themselves from the Jedi and force the Republic to accede to their demands.

So when the Senate found out about a massive delivery of military equipment from the Techno-Union on Geonosis, and a treaty with the Banking Clan, Commerce Guilds and Trade Federation, they took that as a clear escalation and intent to attack the defenceless Republic worlds (note: they didn't know about the secret clone army yet.) Even then, (thanks to the opposition led by Padme) most of the Senate would refuse to sign the act unless the Separatists attacked first. This is why Palpatine goaded Jar Jar into proposing to grant the chancellor emergency powers to end the debate and create the military before it was too late.

For their part, the Jedi had basically painted themselves into a corner. They were committed and duty bound to serve the senate, but they didn't want to become soldiers. Windu's mission to Geonosis was ostensibly only to "deal with Count Dooku". He was once one of theirs; and they just got very stark evidence that he's preparing for an all out war. Moreover they had evidence he had a direct hand in the assassination attempt on Padme, and had some unknown connection to this clone army that just seemed to appear out of nowhere.
That last part is important because the Jedi knew they'd been blinded by the dark side, but daren't admit that to the senate lest it make matters worse. A drop in confidence in the protection of the Jedi would only push the Republic closer to civil war. They needed to understand what was going on, so Yoda used the new army to try and capture Dooku and end the conflict before it really starts . . . and it failed.

At this point it might be worth mentioning some elements of the script that didn't make it into the final movie, but still indicate what's going on with the Jedi. Specifically there's a few exchanges (mostly between Yoda & Windu) that expand upon why the Jedi have become blinded. They should have foreseen the bombing attempt, and they know it. There's a great disturbance in the force and as was predicted by the prophecy, the power of the dark side is growing to the point where only through the dark side can future events be glimpsed. There were even some scenes of Yoda meditating and using the dark side to try and see through the fog. A very dangerous endeavour, obviously, but it speaks to the level of desperation of the council, mostly because it's been a decade since they learned that the Sith are alive and well and out there, and have so far not shown themselves again. They know the Sith are working against them, but they don't know how or from where the threat is coming.

Another neat little detail from the script is that although even after four trials and endless hearing the Supreme Court couldn't oust Nute Gunray as Viceroy of the Trade Federation, they did however order it to reduce the size of it's droid armies. Though rumours abound that they didn't actually comply with the order, and the Jedi were prevented from investigating as it would have been "too dangerous for the economy". Mention is also made of the other "armies of commerce", and the ongoing corruption in the courts and the senate that's allowed them to go unrestrained. That last part is important as it indicates how the Separatists were able to get their hands on such vast numbers of battle droids and ships; they were sold/leased to them from the Federation, the Techno Union, and the other Commerce Guilds already substantial forces, likely thanks to a substantial loan from the Banking Clan.

So, Yoda's gambit failed and Dooku escaped, likely using the unprecedented Jedi led military assault on Geonosis as proof that the Republic is moving against them, rallying even more systems to the Separatist cause.
At this point the Clone Wars begin, and it's mostly a four lobed conflict. The Separatist parliament is convinced that they're engaging in a holding action, acting defensively against Republic invasion and occupation of Alliance worlds (and since they're mostly droids, what's actually going on is easily hidden from them.) The Republic senate and the Jedi think that they are similarly acting defensively. Coming to the aid of systems that refused Dooku's "offer" to join the Confederation and instead suffered punitive actions ranging from neutralising them as a strategic asset the Republic can use, stripping them for resources (those Banking Clan interest payments have to come from somewhere!), or just outright genocide, which they then blame on the Jedi and use to scare other wavering worlds to join them.

For the Jedi, the priority is ending the war as quickly and expediently as possible, because they know full well they've been ensnared in a Sith plot, and the only way out of it is straight through . . . which is of course where the compromises start, and their fall begins in earnest.
 
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The Separatists were "led" by business interests: The Trade Federation, the Banking Clan, etc. They literally wanted to be free of the Republic's regulations to do whatever they wanted.

They appealed to planets who may or may not have had legitimate grievances with the Republic and convinced them that they'd be better off.

There were people in the Confederacy who were actual, non-evil believers in the cause, thinking they would be better off not being ruled by a distant and remote government which was slow, if not downright ineffectual, in responding to their needs.

Of course, at the end of the day, it was a cause created by an evil dude to cause a war in order to seize power. But since no one actually knew that, all the people except Palps (and Dooku) in the Separatist cause believed in it. Either because they were greedy business types who didn't want to pay taxes or lowly galactic citizens who were left behind by the Republic. And the Sith expertly played into those fears/needs.
 
In the Dooku "Tales of the Jedi" episodes they show the kinds of Senatorial corruption that drove Dooku and others to want to get away from the Republic before Palpatine started poking the hornet's nest and is the Outer Rim. Also in Andor and The Mandalorian, we've seen high society Core Worlders and how that would look to some down to earth sorts out on the Rim, and even those in the Mid Rim would have issues with the hoity toity of the Core.
 
The Separatists separated because the Naboo crisis proved that the Republic was powerless to defend the interests of the member planets.

After all, a COMPANY blockaded and invaded a member planet, and the Republic did nothing at all. From the point of view of the rest of the galaxy, Naboo was left on its own to fight off an invasion by a corporation.

Never mind the fact that the same corporation was involved with the separatists.

I'm really of the opinion that George came up with a bare-bones framework for this stuff but didn't think it through in-depth.
 
The Separatists separated because the Naboo crisis proved that the Republic was powerless to defend the interests of the member planets.

After all, a COMPANY blockaded and invaded a member planet, and the Republic did nothing at all. From the point of view of the rest of the galaxy, Naboo was left on its own to fight off an invasion by a corporation.

Never mind the fact that the same corporation was involved with the separatists.

I'm really of the opinion that George came up with a bare-bones framework for this stuff but didn't think it through in-depth.
Even the Jedi thought it was trivial at first. Absurd. What if they hadn't tried to kill the Jedi and simply refused to lift the blockade? Would the Jedi just shrug and walk away without doing anything?
 
Even the Jedi thought it was trivial at first. Absurd. What if they hadn't tried to kill the Jedi and simply refused to lift the blockade? Would the Jedi just shrug and walk away without doing anything?
No, they would have tried to negotiate, report to the Supereme Chancellor and the Supreme Chancellor would bring it to the Senate and the Senate would form a commission.

It would be a long, slow, process, that would leave the Naboo vulnerable. And potentially other worlds as well since the Trade Federation had moved most of the blockade once they took over the planet and captured the leadership.
 
This question came to me after the last episode of The Mandalorian where (spoiler?) an old separatist wanted to continue fighting for the cause. (Mind you I've only seen the movies and the new series, not Clone Wars or anything.)

From what I've seen in the movies, the planets that were part of the Old Republic had a lot of autonomy (I mean, Naboo was a monarchy). The Republic didn't even have an army.

I asked myself then
a) why did people not want to be part of the Republic, even in a violent way? It didn't exactly feel like a dictatorship to me.
b) if people wanted to leave the Republic so much, why didn't the Republic, well, just let them? Historically the use of force in such situations has never ended well.
c) Whoever wanted to separate in the movies was shown as the bad guy (actually it was all an evil plan by Palpatine etc). But what did ordinary people think? Was it favorable? against? Indifferent and felt like a victim of a war that didn't concern them?
d) Is it possible that if a planet didn't want to no longer be part of the Republic it couldn't, well, just do it? Did it have to go to war? Were there no democratic means?

Because it had turned into a decident core/rich person only club full of corruption.

Most of the separatists worlds were out in the rim and where being exploited/screwed over by the republic and its corporation's.

On top of that the republic pacific attitude meant privacy was given a free run in the poor areas unable to afford their own defense fleet.

If I was born on a rim world I would of probably joined the separatists.
 
In the Dooku "Tales of the Jedi" episodes they show the kinds of Senatorial corruption that drove Dooku and others to want to get away from the Republic before Palpatine started poking the hornet's nest and is the Outer Rim. Also in Andor and The Mandalorian, we've seen high society Core Worlders and how that would look to some down to earth sorts out on the Rim, and even those in the Mid Rim would have issues with the hoity toity of the Core.
Let's not also forget what we saw In Clone Wars with the Martez sisters. Even on the highest of highest society planets, most people are still living in poverty, neglected by the government and forgotten by the Jedi. So divisions and dissatisfaction abound!

The thing to always remember about the Clone Wars is that it's not meant to be a black & white conflict. It's murky by design. It's not a war of liberation or conquest; it's a civil war, and those are always a mess. The RotS opening crawl literally says: "There are heroes on both sides. Evil is everywhere."
I'm really of the opinion that George came up with a bare-bones framework for this stuff but didn't think it through in-depth.
And that opinion would be objectively incorrect. He really did think about it, a lot. As I previously illustrated, it's all there in abundance in the earlier drafts of the various movie scripts before they got pared down, plus things he's said over the years in interviews about them, and about Clone Wars.
The reason it's not explicitly spelled out in the movies is because it's not immediately relevant to the story being told. It informs the story though context clues and world building, but by and large the audience doesn't really need to know about the larger interplay between the Republic, the Separatist, movement and the various corporate entities.

Think about it for a second; for the sake of argument how many WWII movies can you think of that actually get into the nitty gritty of the geo-politics of the entire war? Down to which companies are supplying which side, what countries are officially neural but really supporting one side over the other (*waves at Portugal*), which countries are selling to both sides for fun and profit, and the various intrigues that result. Doesn't really come up much does it? Because for most war stories in such a setting, it's not directly relevant. Now on the other hand if Lucas were ever to do a 'World at War' style mockumentary about the Clone Wars, then you'd probably hear all about it!
 
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Though manipulated, the Separatists were afraid of a single power running everything…which they played a part in…then too…had they actually prevailed…it would have put a kink in the Emperor’s plan.

My guess is that Dooku really was going for just that…and thus the betrayal.

Sidious only could truly win if they lost, since unification via democide was what he was after.

The separatists were less rag-tag than the rebellion, but might have looked at destroying the Death Star as we look at the Dresden bombings.
 
Though manipulated, the Separatists were afraid of a single power running everything…which they played a part in…then too…had they actually prevailed…it would have put a kink in the Emperor’s plan.

My guess is that Dooku really was going for just that…and thus the betrayal.

Sidious only could truly win if they lost, since unification via democide was what he was after.

The separatists were less rag-tag than the rebellion, but might have looked at destroying the Death Star as we look at the Dresden bombings.
They weren't afraid of a single power running everything, they were sick of corruption undermining democracy. Their motivation wasn't what might happen, it's what had already happened. In their eyes, the Republic had already failed; rotten from within, and those remaining either couldn't see it, or were part of the problem.

As for what Dooku thought was going to happen; I foresee two possibilities: -
  1. He thought the Republic would fall as the Clones "mysteriously" turned on their Jedi Generals mid-combat. The Separatists droid armies would overrun them in the confusion, cease control of the core systems and Dooku would declare himself Emperor, while Palpatine being already in custody from a darign raid on the capital is put on trial and exiled somewhere far out of the way, allowing Lord Sidious to quietly slip into position as the new Emperor's most trusted advisor.
  2. He thought the Separatists droid armies were to be neutralised, and it's worlds occupied by the new Empire. Then "Count Dooku" is arrested, put on trial and exiled somewhere far out of the way, allowing Lord Tyranus to quietly slip into position as the new Emperor's mysterious enforcer. (aka: the version he thought was happening right up until Sidious had Anakin cut his head off.)
He also probably figured he could train up an apprentice on the QT then murder Sidious at some point, once his position as heir to the Empire was secure. Indeed he tried exactly that with Ventress but Sidious saw that coming a mile off. He also seemed ot try it with Voss to an extent, but I rather suspect Obi-Wan was his preferred choice both before and after those failures, but he was barking up the wrong tree there too.

Either way the end goal for him is the same: use the war to both wipe out the corporations so their greed driven influence on politics is broken, and weaken the powers of the senate so it's inherent corruption is nullified. As such it really doesn't matter which side "won", the outcome would essentially be the same.

Knowing Palpatine the whole thing was a Xanatos Gambit, meaning no matter how things turned out, or whichever direction he steered events based on various factors (what the Jedi did that was outside of his control, whether Clones or Droids proved to be the more effective means of enforcing the New Order etc.) he would still end up in control of a Galactic Empire, with the Jedi Order in flames.
 
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