The comments that Lien has made don't seem like there was a scandal. I think you just want there to be one
My theory on why Kes wasn't a more beloved character. Also opinion on Lien. post-"Voyager."
- Thread starter Jayson1
- Start date
You must be wrong because I hear that Berman is the spawn of satan.
First of all, those events aren't the most significant facts and events in Kes's life. Events like joining the Voyager crew, becoming The Doctor's assistant, the relationship and break-up with Neelix are.
I hate the facts and events you mentioned because they ruin the character. Simple as that!
The life-span was a mistake. Species with such a short lifespan will never develope into more than primates.
The other two facts and events you mentioned were deliberately made to ruin and destroy the character. You don't believe me to like those, do you.
Since we do have posters who strongly dislike the character and the actress and who takes each and every opportunity to peck on the character and the actress by telling everyone what a worthless character Kes is and what a worthless actress Lien was, then I do think that I have all the right in the world to defend the character and the actress
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I do think it was a scandal when a person who has done a great job for three yeras is kicked out because some producer has a strange fascination for women in catsuits.
Besides that, I'm looking forward to the day when people like Mulgrew and Beltran will write their biographies and describe what happened.
One of the most fun aspects of revisiting TNG/DS9/VOY era Trek for me today is that, when I originally watched this stuff, I was a kid/teen/college student dreaming of working in TV/film and obsessively following the behind-the-scenes on this franchise. In the years since then I have been actually working in entertainment, and I've now witnessed this from the other side several times -- the axing of a series regular that is only ever publicly explained in the most blandly neutral of terms. And myself and other crew members would lurk in the online fan communities and be amused/intrigued by the speculation from the viewers of what really happened -- how some people were just completely off in outer space with totally ridiculous conclusions that they were 100% certain of, how others would guess exactly right, etc.
Anyway, my feeling, there is not a snowball's chance in hell the explanation that they just ran out of story for Kes is the truth. A firing that goes down like this is always because the decision makers do not like the actor in question. It probably really was precipitated by budget concerns, but in their minds, they are choosing to fire her because on set she is unprofessional/not good/difficult.
But, even though that’s what they truly believe, only some of the time is that reality, ESPECIALLY when it’s an attractive actress. All those old saws about how much harder it is for women in Hollywood are absolutely true: sometimes what gets the woman branded as difficult and unprofessional is that she has thoughts and ideas, isn’t sufficiently submissive, isn’t grateful enough for the job because she doesn’t understand how dime-a-dozen she is, etc. (See: McFadden, Gates)
Or a mix of the two. Since the male producers are already in this mindset of how replaceable pretty women are, it can take only minor missteps to sour the deal in a way that wouldn’t even register coming from male cast. I was skimming the Voyager section of The 50 Year Mission and was shocked by how awful Beltran described his own behavior as being. It sounds cliché, but if a woman had behaved that way, she would have been fired in a hot second.
Anyway, this is all a roundabout way of saying, I think the basic contours of this story are probably as we understand them. They had to cut someone for budget reasons, Lien and Wang were the two that were branded the most difficult, they had probably both behaved in ways that opened the door to being characterized that way (but just how bad it was, we’ll never really know -- and there's a good argument that a series regular can't make one mistake -- these shows are machines and you are paid the big bucks to do good work while also being a smooth cog in the machine -- really even a single incidence of lateness or not knowing lines should be considered inexcusable). I bet there were also "can we fire the only Asian?" talks, and people speculating that swapping white chick for white chick WOULD just be simpler that way, because that ethnic math ALWAYS comes up...
And probably some moron did weigh in with “we can’t fire him, look at this press he’s getting in People!” This is just the kind of thing some tertiary network executive would say, someone who really has no point and is looking for a way to involve themselves in decisions to justify their huge salary. Then you humor him with a bland pleasantry that says nothing ("I'm glad you brought that up") and move on.
Anyway, my feeling, there is not a snowball's chance in hell the explanation that they just ran out of story for Kes is the truth. A firing that goes down like this is always because the decision makers do not like the actor in question. It probably really was precipitated by budget concerns, but in their minds, they are choosing to fire her because on set she is unprofessional/not good/difficult.
But, even though that’s what they truly believe, only some of the time is that reality, ESPECIALLY when it’s an attractive actress. All those old saws about how much harder it is for women in Hollywood are absolutely true: sometimes what gets the woman branded as difficult and unprofessional is that she has thoughts and ideas, isn’t sufficiently submissive, isn’t grateful enough for the job because she doesn’t understand how dime-a-dozen she is, etc. (See: McFadden, Gates)
Or a mix of the two. Since the male producers are already in this mindset of how replaceable pretty women are, it can take only minor missteps to sour the deal in a way that wouldn’t even register coming from male cast. I was skimming the Voyager section of The 50 Year Mission and was shocked by how awful Beltran described his own behavior as being. It sounds cliché, but if a woman had behaved that way, she would have been fired in a hot second.
Anyway, this is all a roundabout way of saying, I think the basic contours of this story are probably as we understand them. They had to cut someone for budget reasons, Lien and Wang were the two that were branded the most difficult, they had probably both behaved in ways that opened the door to being characterized that way (but just how bad it was, we’ll never really know -- and there's a good argument that a series regular can't make one mistake -- these shows are machines and you are paid the big bucks to do good work while also being a smooth cog in the machine -- really even a single incidence of lateness or not knowing lines should be considered inexcusable). I bet there were also "can we fire the only Asian?" talks, and people speculating that swapping white chick for white chick WOULD just be simpler that way, because that ethnic math ALWAYS comes up...
And probably some moron did weigh in with “we can’t fire him, look at this press he’s getting in People!” This is just the kind of thing some tertiary network executive would say, someone who really has no point and is looking for a way to involve themselves in decisions to justify their huge salary. Then you humor him with a bland pleasantry that says nothing ("I'm glad you brought that up") and move on.
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I agree with alot of things which you have written and I clearly see your point.
However, during my research of this during all those years, I haven't found anything which state that Lien was misbehaving in any way. I know that this can look like a desperate fan's intention to cover it all up but so far, I haven't found anything anywhere whic could prove that Lien misbehaved in any way or was difficult to work with.
I do know that there were som issues with Wang, in fact the famous "drug rumor" actually started about him. But since he did remain in the show, there are no evidence at all that he was involved with drugs either.
If someone is misbehaving, all the s**t finally will come up to the surface. Everyone knew that that Shannen Doherty was a pain in the a** for everyone on "Beverly Hills" both before and after she was fired and it was the same with Gary Dourdan in "CSI" when it came to drug abuse but so far I haven't found any evidence that Lien was fired for drug abuse or misbehavior, other than some speculation and rumors on different forums.
What I have found out is what I've written before, that they wanted a "sexy babe" in the sho and that someone had to go. Neelix, who was the most unpopular character among the fans was obviously too important to for the ongoing story to be kicked out so it was a choice between Kim and Kes. Kim was chosen to be axed but then the silly inside poll among the staff at "People" showed up and kes was axed instead.
What annoys me is the lousy cover-up from those in charge which for me is evidence that it was foul play involved. I've read tons of rock music biographies and also worked in the music "business" for a while so I've learned to see when foul play is involved. I've read about "Mutual agreement" and known that it has been a doenright firing for any possible reason. I've read about "musical differences" when the truth have been more dramatic than that. In fact, I've read and seen a lot of "official statements" which have continued as much truth as the story about Litttle Red Riding Hood and The Wolf. Therefore I don't trust certain official statements and those I've seen about the "changes in season 4" have a lot of warning signs.
And kicking out Lien the way they did wasn't particulariy nice, to say the least
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Was Garret Wang ever suspended for his behavior and attitude? If I recall correctly, he wasn't seen at all in the episode Blood Fever. Although he wasn't part of the story, he wasn't even seen on the bridge at all (there was a young woman, Ensign Lang I think). I thought I read something somewhere that it was his issues with his bosses that was the reason he wasn't seen in that episode. But I can't recall where I read it.
So true. Kes, like the Maquis angle, seems devised for a show that is more serialized than what Voyager ended up being. Since in theory we'll be covering her entire lifespan over 7 seasons, she should have been dramatically changing the whole time. We change a lot over our 80-ish years of life, and they could have gotten all that drama out of Kes. But, like the Maquis tension, they don't seem to know what to do with this provocative idea and quickly back away from it ("Cold Fire" has all that stuff about how those Ocampa live longer now that they are in space). I love Kes and most Kes episodes, but, like most of the cast, they were keeping her fairly static as a character. There is some development, but not as rapid or dramatic as the short lifespan concept would seem to call for.
I would just say that this DEFINITELY isn't true. I once worked on a successful show that ran for years and years, and the behavior of one of the key actors was insanely out of control. He was routinely hours late, frequently drunk or high, he would fly into rages and punch holes in the walls, there were at least two incidents of physical violence toward crew, constant horrific sexual harassment, he called a black crewperson the N-word to their face, just on and on and on. NONE of it ever leaked. When doing press, the cast would flawlessly perform as people in a happy & healthy work environment, and it's what the fans believe was happening behind-the-scenes to this day. I have had some good friends on other shows that were similar situations. The set that leaks is actually the rarity... most of the time the cast & crew just closes ranks and does not talk outside of school.
^^
Well, I might be wrong about things like that. I can only refer to what I've expreienced myself in my previous work in the music business and certain series and movies where reports of misbehavior have come out before possible sackings and changes in certain casts.
If the final truth about the "changes in season 4"will be revealed and/or some trustworthy person will come up with the absolute truth and why or how things were and that would prove me wrong, then I would be the first one to openly admit that I was wrong. But I need more than "official statements" from those in charge. Those people have changed their stories too many times and such things always makes me suspicious.
One thing I also wonder is: Would someone like Kate Mulgrew, who seem to be one of those people who wants to be in contol of things, object and show dissatisfaction if a troublemaker was kicked out? I don't think so. But Mulgrew was obviously unhappy that Lien had to go and even Robert Beltran has questioned what happened.
As for the Ocampa lifespan, it was more and less abandoned already in season 1 and seldom mentioned after that which I do believe was because those in charge might have realized that it limited the character. There were also hints that Kes's lifespan could be prolonged, most notably in "Cold Fire" so I guess that it would have happened if she had been allowed to stay in the series.
Well, I might be wrong about things like that. I can only refer to what I've expreienced myself in my previous work in the music business and certain series and movies where reports of misbehavior have come out before possible sackings and changes in certain casts.
If the final truth about the "changes in season 4"will be revealed and/or some trustworthy person will come up with the absolute truth and why or how things were and that would prove me wrong, then I would be the first one to openly admit that I was wrong. But I need more than "official statements" from those in charge. Those people have changed their stories too many times and such things always makes me suspicious.
One thing I also wonder is: Would someone like Kate Mulgrew, who seem to be one of those people who wants to be in contol of things, object and show dissatisfaction if a troublemaker was kicked out? I don't think so. But Mulgrew was obviously unhappy that Lien had to go and even Robert Beltran has questioned what happened.
As for the Ocampa lifespan, it was more and less abandoned already in season 1 and seldom mentioned after that which I do believe was because those in charge might have realized that it limited the character. There were also hints that Kes's lifespan could be prolonged, most notably in "Cold Fire" so I guess that it would have happened if she had been allowed to stay in the series.
The reason why you can tell they replaced Kes was because they wanted to add a sex symbol is they tried to do that with Kes so you know it was already on their mind in season 3. They gave her a catsuit and the long flowing hair.
I do think their is some truth in them wanting more conflict and wanting to use the Borg but a sex symbol was clearly the number 1 thing they wanted.
Jason
I do think their is some truth in them wanting more conflict and wanting to use the Borg but a sex symbol was clearly the number 1 thing they wanted.
Jason
^^
The "sex symbol" is one of the reasons it took me forever to warm up to Seven of Nine.
Secondly, 9 year life span? Can someone explain to me why that makes sense, at all? They have a child once in their life time, which basically means that your population growth is a net zero. Yeah, it sounds really alien, but it makes no sense.
Finally, I wonder how many people know where shibboleth comes from.
The "sex symbol" is one of the reasons it took me forever to warm up to Seven of Nine.
How are those three the most significant? Maybe "The Gift" because she evolves in a way that I doubt the Ocampa ever did, so I see that significance, but it's annoying because "Bye-bye, Kes." So, I don't fault anyone who likes Kes (myself included) for not liking that.
Secondly, 9 year life span? Can someone explain to me why that makes sense, at all? They have a child once in their life time, which basically means that your population growth is a net zero. Yeah, it sounds really alien, but it makes no sense.
Finally, I wonder how many people know where shibboleth comes from.
Not any more. He retired from that role, and Abrams got it.
1. Leaving the show and evolving in a way that your powers propel your friends through Borg space in the blink of an eye is a pretty significant event in a character's life, even in sci-fi.
2. That you think the 9 year life span doesn't make any sense is irrelevant to the fact that it is a key trait of the character.
3. Coming back to Voyager cranky and grumpy then being helped back on your way by the people that took you from Ocampa is also a pretty significant event.
I would say those events are absolutely key to the character's identity. Going back in time, being inhabited by an alien warlord etc are pretty boilerplate sci fi tropes that could've happened to Tom, Neelix or Harry.
I know where shibboleth comes from. If I didn't, I'd be able to find out since I too can use the Googles.
There's nothing to defend. As you are free to express your 90s-style fanboyism, so too are the rest of us free to express opinions that might be different than yours. I'm just saying it'd be nice to have a conversation about Kes on this forum without you telling everybody they're wrong, or haters, or know less than you because you have a Geocities website and write Kes fan fiction.
There's no war here. Just nerds in a small corner of the internet talking about shit that went down 20 years ago.
Fair point, but I think that Fury underminds that significance.
Ok, so it's significantly, as well as significantly stupid. Also, it's not really significant, since she doesn't make it to that age and explore that process, which would be something unique to her character. Instead, we get a "evolved being" that has been done and done again.
And seems rather out of character, so it doesn't feel significant because the character doesn't feel accurate.
But, it happened to Kes, which makes it more significant.
Since it's so rarely used, and Biblical references are not as common on this board, I was surprised to see it used. That's all.
The Google is evil, though.
I'm too old for point-by-point debating, so I'll wave a virtual white flag. As I say, Kes threads always end up the same way and my pointing that out has become a self-fulfilling prophecy 
We'll just agree on the Google thing and I'll go annoy some other thread
We'll just agree on the Google thing and I'll go annoy some other thread
You raised some solid points, to be sure. I think Kes was a missed opportunity, but I certainly don't think that her staying was the only way to save the show. Clearly Seven did a decent job in her role, and as much as I loathe catsuits, the character was decent.I'm too old for point-by-point debating, so I'll wave a virtual white flag. As I say, Kes threads always end up the same way and my pointing that out has become a self-fulfilling prophecy
We'll just agree on the Google thing and I'll go annoy some other thread
As with many things on VOY, it was a mixed bag, and raises lots ofemotions in the process. Fortunately, I am immune from those effects
You raised some solid points, to be sure. I think Kes was a missed opportunity, but I certainly don't think that her staying was the only way to save the show. Clearly Seven did a decent job in her role, and as much as I loathe catsuits, the character was decent.
As with many things on VOY, it was a mixed bag, and raises lots ofemotions in the process. Fortunately, I am immune from those effects
Oh for sure, I agree with a lot of what you've said. And for the record, I certainly don't hate Kes - in fact, when I watch her in the early seasons I'm still saddened that she had to leave. Especially if the rumours are true that Garrett Wang was originally on the chopping block - I find him unwatchable.
As you say, many things on VOY were a mixed bag. That's true of all Trek, but VOY in particular. Glimmers of magic contrasted with maddening creative decisions. Sigh.
Indeed, indeed. Garret Wang's acting left much to be desired, and that's saying something given the extremes that Trek actors could demonstrate.
I think my biggest thing with Kes, and really VOY, is that there was a lot of potential there, and that just got left behind. And, yeah, it's not my show and I didn't run i it, and they made their choices and that's it. But, I tell you what, when I watch it, and then I stop and think about it, and go, "Well, they could have done X" it saddens me.
So, yeah, VOY could be good, but it could leave me scratching my head just as much.
Honestly, I would be very happy if you would stop making this personal by coming up with personal attacks, thank you.
Attacking me personally will in no way change my views or prevent me from presenting my opinion in this matter, it will only strengthen my will and desire for standing up for what I think is right.
I can be quite stubborn when it comes to certain things, you should see me discuss local politics. I can assure you that my debates about Kes is like a warm summer breeze compared to that.
