I'm not sure whether JMS himself ever really fleshed out Clark beyond the various historical archetypes of power-hungry dictators.
My rewatch of Babylon 5 continues........ Such an emotional ride
- Thread starter Gingerbread Demon
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From a post I found on Reddit. You'll never think of B5 the same again
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The shadows are the parent who books their kid into tackle football with insufficient padding & gear, and known players on the team that keep score on how many teeth they knock out of their teammates in practice or how vicious the hazing is in the locker room. When the kid complains, the parent says "get tough. walk it off, and learn to strike back."
The Vorlons are the hyper-helicopter parents that are stressing the kids to distraction about getting absolute straight-A's in grade school so they won't hurt their Ivy-league college admissions. The kid is about to have a psychotic break over the pressure. The parent says "I made it this way, you need to also."
The parents are getting into screaming arguments about which child raising opinion is better for their kid -- measured by which one of them wants to win more and get more post-divorce ego points, NOT what is better for the kid.
Lorien and the other remaining First Ones are the grandparents, uncles, aunts, etc., wanting to knock some sense into both parents.
The Sigma-9-5-7 first ones are the elder cousin wanting to take the kid for a 'walk' (see what I did there?) in the park for ice cream and a talk to try and give the kid some background and advice -- but the LAST time that happened both parents screamed bloody blue murder about interfering. So all they can do is curse out the Vorlons in Ivanova-can't-understand-garble the next time they're mentioned.
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The shadows are the parent who books their kid into tackle football with insufficient padding & gear, and known players on the team that keep score on how many teeth they knock out of their teammates in practice or how vicious the hazing is in the locker room. When the kid complains, the parent says "get tough. walk it off, and learn to strike back."
The Vorlons are the hyper-helicopter parents that are stressing the kids to distraction about getting absolute straight-A's in grade school so they won't hurt their Ivy-league college admissions. The kid is about to have a psychotic break over the pressure. The parent says "I made it this way, you need to also."
The parents are getting into screaming arguments about which child raising opinion is better for their kid -- measured by which one of them wants to win more and get more post-divorce ego points, NOT what is better for the kid.
Lorien and the other remaining First Ones are the grandparents, uncles, aunts, etc., wanting to knock some sense into both parents.
The Sigma-9-5-7 first ones are the elder cousin wanting to take the kid for a 'walk' (see what I did there?) in the park for ice cream and a talk to try and give the kid some background and advice -- but the LAST time that happened both parents screamed bloody blue murder about interfering. So all they can do is curse out the Vorlons in Ivanova-can't-understand-garble the next time they're mentioned.
Not really telling me anything I didn't already know, though I might not have thought of it in those particular terms, but a reasonably accurate analogy.
I wonder whether the Vorlons and Shadows should be thought of parents who are still married, or whether, by the time of B5, they should be thought of as divorced parents, now willing to engage in dirty tricks in their efforts to sway their children.
I wonder whether the Vorlons and Shadows should be thought of parents who are still married, or whether, by the time of B5, they should be thought of as divorced parents, now willing to engage in dirty tricks in their efforts to sway their children.
I was checking something in the scripts, and saw a deleted line in “Z’ha’dum” that explained something I had been confused by; Morden mentions that the rule against the Vorlons and Shadows fighting directly was new, a direct result of how devastating Valen’s Shadow War had been.
I’d wondered how Delenn and the others were so emphatic about the Vorlons being their allies against the Shadows if they’d been slow-walking and not participating in battles, so the idea that they’d been going at one another directly in the last war and there wasn’t always a rule against direct First One on First One violence answered that question.
Anyway, on the subject, the idea that they’re having to make new rules after who knows how many cycles of Shadow Wars (at least 9, if Delenn’s slanted history of the Shadows can be believed) doesn’t speak well to the condition of the Vorlon/Shadow “relationship.”
I’d wondered how Delenn and the others were so emphatic about the Vorlons being their allies against the Shadows if they’d been slow-walking and not participating in battles, so the idea that they’d been going at one another directly in the last war and there wasn’t always a rule against direct First One on First One violence answered that question.
Anyway, on the subject, the idea that they’re having to make new rules after who knows how many cycles of Shadow Wars (at least 9, if Delenn’s slanted history of the Shadows can be believed) doesn’t speak well to the condition of the Vorlon/Shadow “relationship.”
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Vorlon tav utna chog!
I read somewhere/somewhen (maybe it was The Lurker’s Guide? Can’t recall, sorry!) that JMS’s pitch to the execs was something to the effect that B5 is ‘about killing your parents’ (from the kid’s POV).
Apparently, after seeing the faces on the execs after saying so, he said, ‘Not literally.’
Cheers,
-CM-
I read somewhere/somewhen (maybe it was The Lurker’s Guide? Can’t recall, sorry!) that JMS’s pitch to the execs was something to the effect that B5 is ‘about killing your parents’ (from the kid’s POV).
Apparently, after seeing the faces on the execs after saying so, he said, ‘Not literally.’
Meryl Yourish <103470.2703@compuserve.com> asks:
On the first viewing, like Marcus, I was thinking, "Was that it?" But how can they still ask for that, when we discovered how all-powerful the desire to be proven right was for each of the Old Ones? The last scene, when the Shadow asked Lorien if he would come with them, and when the Vorlon said, "Then we will not be alone?" You have so many tragic figures in this story--Londo, G'Kar, Sheridan, Garibaldi--leave us some room for joy before you wrap, will you?
On the first viewing, like Marcus, I was thinking, "Was that it?" But how can they still ask for that, when we discovered how all-powerful the desire to be proven right was for each of the Old Ones? The last scene, when the Shadow asked Lorien if he would come with them, and when the Vorlon said, "Then we will not be alone?" You have so many tragic figures in this story--Londo, G'Kar, Sheridan, Garibaldi--leave us some room for joy before you wrap, will you?
Thanks. You definitely hit a lot of the symbolism right on the head. One could almost argue for the whole scene as a classic "intervention" out of psychotherapy or group counseling.
Very early on, John Copeland asked me, "Okay, bottom line it for me, what's the war about?" I said, "It's about killing your parents." And his eyes went wide, and I explained, "No, not literally...but at some point you have to step outside the control of your parents and create your own life, your own destiny. That process is inevitable...and if there are indeed older races, and they're interfering, that puts them smack in the middle of that same process."
It's not about who has the biggest gun, because there's *always* somebody else with a bigger gun...it's about *understanding* your way out of a problem.
jms
Very early on, John Copeland asked me, "Okay, bottom line it for me, what's the war about?" I said, "It's about killing your parents." And his eyes went wide, and I explained, "No, not literally...but at some point you have to step outside the control of your parents and create your own life, your own destiny. That process is inevitable...and if there are indeed older races, and they're interfering, that puts them smack in the middle of that same process."
It's not about who has the biggest gun, because there's *always* somebody else with a bigger gun...it's about *understanding* your way out of a problem.
jms
After I read JMS's autobiography, I thought back to that summation and considered maybe it was a little bit literal.
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