Was Sela pointless?

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

I know this is very controversial, and I don't want to get in trouble for saying this, but, given what everyone's said now, I feel it very important to say this.

I would have been OK with more episodes featuring Denise Crosby as "Sela."

 

[Dukhat]

I’m sorry, but suggesting either Kes or Trip are the worst character assassination in any tv series ever is ignoring a lot of other media. There is a large world outside of Star Trek.

Huh? What is this 'large world outside of Star Trek' of which you speak? Sounds blasphemous.

3 really. The Mind's Eye outed a Romulan spy who likely got killed by his fellow Klingons. The largest complement of their Klingon conspirators were ruined after Redemption & 2000 Romulans were sacrificed at the end of Unification.

You also have to assume that being half human has been a difficulty for her whole life, such that she is so wildly ambitious & hell-bent on destroying Federation alliances, to prove her allegiances. However, when every single attempt fails spectacularly, the admin at home on Romulus would certainly begin wondering if she was secretly tanking them on purpose for her human kinfolk.

Yeah, she's likely dead after that. They probably never bought the whole "Picard sent my mom from the future" story anyhow either, or they'd have a much more serious problem to invest in, geopolitical timeline tampering by the Federation, which no one ever really addresses.

Another interesting point: While Sela was aware that her mother came from the future, it was never clear that she was aware that the prime universe Tasha existed and was killed by Armus. All she seemed to know was that Tasha was aboard the Enterprise-C 22 years before, sent there by Picard at some point in the future, but was unaware that that Tasha and Picard were from an alternate universe.

 

[Finn]

Huh? What is this 'large world outside of Star Trek' of which you speak? Sounds blasphemous.





Another interesting point: While Sela was aware that her mother came from the future, it was never clear that she was aware that the prime universe Tasha existed and was killed by Armus. All she seemed to know was that Tasha was aboard the Enterprise-C 22 years before, sent there by Picard at some point in the future, but was unaware that that Tasha and Picard were from an alternate universe.

That would have been interesting. Maybe she tried tracking her down, not realizing she wasn't the version that gave birth to her? Tal Shiar would have been interested in the alternate Tasha and Sela would have the connections to find out, especially if her father was in the cahoots with them, or they wouldn't have let him live with her....

Plus she seemed to know that Picard (the one we know) knew her Tasha, and she seemed to expect confusion from Picard. I think she knew.

 

[Dukhat]

Plus she seemed to know that Picard (the one we know) knew her Tasha, and she seemed to expect confusion from Picard. I think she knew.

That's a definite possibility, although not entirely clear. But they chose not to do anything with it, or develop Sela's character as anything beyond 'generic Romulan bad gal guy.'

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Sela would know about Tasha, and her father would know her mother was a survive from the Enterprise-C, from the future, from the Enterprise-D under Picard's command. It would be reasonable for the Romulans to use Sela to screw with the Enterprise command crew.

 

[Finn]

But why didn't they use Sela to take our Tasha's place? They could have sent someone to Turkana IV keep an eye on Tasha so they'd know things about her and once they realize how much Sela resembles her mother, perfect opportunity!

 

[Dukhat]

But why didn't they use Sela to take our Tasha's place? They could have sent someone to keep an eye on Tasha so they'd know things about her and once they realize how much Sela resembles her mother, perfect opportunity!

That would have made far more sense to use this 20-something year old who looks exactly like Tasha as a spy rather than make this 20-something year old a commander of two huge military operations.

 

[Finn]

Now that I think about it, I'm amazed this didn't seem to have been brought up already.

 

[Lynx]

I’m sorry, but suggesting either Kes or Trip are the worst character assassination in any tv series ever is ignoring a lot of other media. There is a large world outside of Star Trek.

I have watched a lot of different series from the 90's until recently, series like NCIS, the CSI series, Stargate and more but I haven't seen anything more unecessary, disgusting or close to what happened in that episode in season 6 of Voyager.

The only I can think of is when Dr. Frazier in Stargate was killed off for no reason at all. But at least she wasn't brought back after two years and turned into a monster before being killed off.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

I have watched a lot of different series from the 90's until recently, series like NCIS, the CSI series, Stargate and more but I haven't seen anything more unecessary, disgusting or close to what happened in that episode in season 6 of Voyager.

The only I can think of is when Dr. Frazier in Stargate was killed off for no reason at all. But at least she wasn't brought back after two years and turned into a monster before being killed off.

It's been 25 years, and it was one episode.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

But it changed a character in such a bad way and didn't reverse these changes in the end (and these changes were never reversed). So it made all the previous episodes concerning Kes senseless for me. Similar with Trip and TATV.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

But it changed a character in such a bad way and didn't reverse these changes in the end (and these changes were never reversed). So it made all the previous episodes concerning Kes senseless for me. Similar with Trip and TATV.

I disagree. You can go always go back and watch the series and just skip "Fury." This is what I do if there's an episode I don't like. Not hard. If ENT's TATV is that upsetting, just stop with the previous episode and let "Terra Prime" be the finale.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

Yes, but memory remains.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Yes, but memory remains.

I guess, I just don't get the idea of taking a bad episode of an old TV show so personally. Not good for your health, man.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

Yes, that't true. But, the turth is, old tv shows wouldn;t sting so much if new tv shows were better (for me, anyway. I am not speaking for others).

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Yes, that't true. But, the turth is, old tv shows wouldn;t sting so much if new tv shows were better (for me, anyway. I am not speaking for others).

For me, it's less worse / equal / better, more, "Was I entertained?"

Some modern TV shows I like:
Star Trek
Discovery (S1-2, haven't seen S3-5) / Short Treks / Picard
Lower Decks (S1-2, haven't seen S3-5) / Prodigy / Haven't seen SNW yet.

Netflix Originals
Adventures of Puss in Boots (Shrek spin-off - moved to Peacock)
All of Us Are Dead (South Korean horror - zombies)
The Haunting of Hill House (miniseries)
The Haunting of Bly Manor (miniseries)
Midnight Mass (miniseries - don't read spoilers!!! )
Jurassic World (Camp Cretaceous / Chaos Theory - animated)
Lost in Space (remake)
Stranger Things (this one is my favorite)
Sweet Home (South Korean horror - monsters)
Terminator Zero (anime)
The Umbrella Academy

Superhero Shows
Big Hero 6: The Series (following the film)
The Gifted (Marvel's Mutants on the run)
Gotham (Batman prequel)
Legion (secret son of Professor X learning he's a Mutant)
Superman & Lois (post-Metropolis)

Other Shows
Blue Bloods (cop show)

I tried to focus on shows from the last 10 years.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

I wasn't all that thinking about Star Trek when I said that, although, out of modern Trek, I only saw Lower Decks and I quite liked it (the only complaint I had was that the Voyager - focused episode was a sequel to "Tuvix", an episode to which's plot Kes was quite important, yet she got no mention there, not even indirect, like they wanted us to forget she even existed, ever).

What I thought most of was modern Star Wars and it's treatment of characters both old and new. The worst thing for me was when the creators irrationally insist that there is no romantic tension between two characters (not even an intentionally unresolved one) while both a large portion of fanfbase and some people who knows almost nothing of the characters see that some tension is there. Compare it to Lower Decks, where both Mariner/Boiler and Tendi/Rutherford was acknowledged, even through it wasn't followed on.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

I wasn't all that thinking about Star Trek when I said that, although, out of modern Trek, I only saw Lower Decks and I quite liked it (the only complaint I had was that the Voyager - focused episode was a sequel to "Tuvix", an episode to which's plot Kes was quite important, yet she got no mention there, not even indirect, like they wanted us to forget she even existed, ever).

What I thought most of was modern Star Wars and it's treatment of characters both old and new. The worst thing for me was when the creators irrationally insist that there is no romantic tension between two characters (not even an intentionally unresolved one) while both a large portion of fanfbase and some people who knows almost nothing of the characters see that some tension is there. Compare it to Lower Decks, where both Mariner/Boiler and Tendi/Rutherford was acknowledged, even through it wasn't followed on.

I haven't seen the Voyager episode, but I'm looking forward to it. Pretty good?
What romantic tension was missing between which two characters from which production?
Lower Decks: Mariner and Boimler, Tendi and Rutherford - REALLY? I'll have to pay attention to this when I start watching again.

 

[Michael]

But it changed a character in such a bad way and didn't reverse these changes in the end (and these changes were never reversed)

I think you need to rewatch “Fury” if you think that’s how it ended, because they absolutely do revert Kes back to her old self in the end, making her remember that the crew of the Voyager were actually her friends and that they only ever helped her. It ends with Janeway offering her to stay on the ship, but she refuses and flies off to the Ocampa homeworld instead, having one last warm goodbye with Neelix in the transporter room.

No-one has to like “Fury” and it’s certainly not my favorite episode, but lets not misrepresent what actually happens in it. I don’t see the character assassination that some claim the episode is guilty of. And I don’t think I ever really understood what’s supposedly so incredibly bad about “Fury”. It’s not particularly special, but it’s a perfectly entertaining hour of Voyager. The whole concept of time traveling back to the beginning of the show is pretty cool and I would argue that Kes suffering from some form of Ocampan dementia is interesting, even if admittedly not realized to my full satisfaction.

I’ve worked with old people suffering from dementia and it’s absolutely a condition that can completely change someone’s character and behavior. It’s particularly hard for the family members of that person who have to witness this change and that person disappearing, So if anything, having Kes go through some version of that is actually pretty apt and sorry, I just can’t view the episode as all bad because of that.

If anything, the episode is when they finally deliver on the original premise of a character with such a limited lifespan. When they thought up the premise for Kes the idea was to show how someone like that would go through all stages of life in the span of the show’s run. Having written out the character in “The Gift” they avoided ever having to show Kes getting really old and suffering from what that entails. “Fury” at least gives us something to make true on the premise.

 

[Lynx]

It's been 25 years, and it was one episode.

Yes, but it has set the standard for how the character Kes is regarded for eternity.

And I don't like that.

But it changed a character in such a bad way and didn't reverse these changes in the end (and these changes were never reversed). So it made all the previous episodes concerning Kes senseless for me. Similar with Trip and TATV.

You're absolutely right.

I disagree. You can go always go back and watch the series and just skip "Fury." This is what I do if there's an episode I don't like. Not hard. If ENT's TATV is that upsetting, just stop with the previous episode and let "Terra Prime" be the finale.

Exactly what I've been doing since then. I will never watch that horrible excuse for an episode from Voyager's season six, not even under gunpoint.

As for ENT, I gave up after six episodes but Trip Tucker and Porthos were the only characters I liked.

As for Voyager, I haven't watched seasons 4-6 since 2001 and I've only watched Endgame of the season 7 episodes.

And to be honest, too many of my favorite characters have been killed of and destroyed. Not only in the series but in recent books as well.

That's the reason why i try to come up with alternative solutions for them. No harm in doing so, I think.

As for Tasha, i can't come up with a good way to bring back the character. Therefore I haven't tried.

As for those who like Sela, she hasn't been killed of or ruined in some other way what I know about.