Monotheism...

[Swedish Borg]

what is monotheism, what does it entail?

Can Christianity for example truly be considered as such without reservations or is it something else?

I mean, a religion where there is ONE God and no trimmings whatsoever (angels, ghosts, what have you) definitely qualifies as monotheistic

but what about a religion where there is a god (the father) another (the son) plus a third thing called the holy ghost, not to mention a slew of other things like the angels, the archangels, the saints (that are said to have a special status), not to mention the demons (all kinds) who were initially angels that had fomented a revolt against the powers that be and were cast off to the "underground"...

Can all this confusion still be called monotheism? Most Christians think so, but is that enough? Can we solve such a conundrum with a simple vote of un-argumented opinions?

FYI: I made a remark in another forum and the moderator suggested that I start a thread on the subject here.

 

[Chaos Descending]

Christianity is certainly monotheism because The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are not three different gods but the same God.

That, and the fact that angels, the Devil, and demons are created beings and not divine in any sense.

I mean, if you really want to know how the Trinity works, I'd suggest reading through the Athanasian Creed. I've highlighted some important parts here:

https://www.ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html

3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
...
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
...
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

 

[Swedish Borg]

It's doesn't make sense to me that a god would be his own son or own father? These are words that normally have a meaning but in this context, they sound like gobbledygook. I mean when someone tells me I have a son. I know what it means. Same thing if someone talks to me about his father but here the words don't seem to have any meaning. You could as well say "alpha god" and "beta god" or whatever. Then you talk about a human woman being impregnated by some holy ghost that's when IMO you forfeit the right to be called monotheist. A god impregnating a woman!!! How is that different from Zeus in Greek mythology?

And sure you have a sacred book that tells us, don't pay attention to the words, we are monotheist because we say so. The father, the son,... are all ONE GOD.

Why? Because we said so!!!

Well, I don't know about you but I need a little more than that.

 

[auntiehill]

Why? Because we said so!!!

That pretty much sums up every religion ever.

 

[Chaos Descending]

It's doesn't make sense to me that a god would be his own son or own father? These are words that normally have a meaning but in this context, they sound like gobbledygook. I mean when someone tells me I have a son. I know what it means. Same thing if someone talks to me about his father but here the words don't seem to have any meaning. You could as well say "alpha god" and "beta god" or whatever. Then you talk about a human woman being impregnated by some holy ghost that's when IMO you forfeit the right to be called monotheist. A god impregnating a woman!!! How is that different from Zeus in Greek mythology?

And sure you have a sacred book that tells us, don't pay attention to the words, we are monotheist because we say so. The father, the son,... are all ONE GOD.

Why? Because we said so!!!

Well, I don't know about you but I need a little more than that.

So you didn't really come here to learn. Noted. Carry on with whatever your agenda is.

 

[Swedish Borg]

So you didn't really come here to learn. Noted. Carry on with whatever your agenda is.

Yes, because that's what "debate" is, people "learning" from others... and that's what "arguing" is, people quoting from a book... And a forum is little more than a glorified bulletin board...

Or is it?

 

[dupersuper]

These are words that normally have a meaning but in this context, they sound like gobbledygook

New to religion?

 

[Swedish Borg]

New to religion?

What?

 

[dupersuper]

What?

It's all gobbledygook

 

[Swedish Borg]

It's all gobbledygook

True enough.

 

[Physics of Trekkies]

It's doesn't make sense to me that a god would be his own son or own father?

I am both a father to my children and a son to my father. But I am not my own father or son and that appears meaningless. It can only be resolved spiritually in the sense that if you know you can draw close to the Father and become connected and one with Him, having His will and His mind then you and the Father can become One.

In John, Jesus said "I and the Father are one". The Father comes and re-casts the symbolic relationship from the human perspective as human. Every Christian understands this. It is not meant to be dismissive of your concerns however.

I mean when someone tells me I have a son. I know what it means. Same thing if someone talks to me about his father but here the words don't seem to have any meaning.

Oh, they have deep meaning to those who have had literal spiritual experiences of the sort I mentioned.

Then you talk about a human woman being impregnated by some holy ghost that's when IMO you forfeit the right to be called monotheist. A god impregnating a woman!!! How is that different from Zeus in Greek mythology?

Impregnation does not mean polytheism. (?)

And sure you have a sacred book that tells us, don't pay attention to the words, we are monotheist because we say so.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One and the same. They have different functions, but is not too much different than showing my child I am father to him, son to my dad, and teacher. (There are a lot of differences between the two analogies for sure! but not considering utility and understanding here).

 

[Chaos Descending]

This is amusing, and on topic.

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[Admiral2]

It's doesn't make sense to me that a god would be his own son or own father? These are words that normally have a meaning but in this context, they sound like gobbledygook. I mean when someone tells me I have a son. I know what it means. Same thing if someone talks to me about his father but here the words don't seem to have any meaning. You could as well say "alpha god" and "beta god" or whatever. Then you talk about a human woman being impregnated by some holy ghost that's when IMO you forfeit the right to be called monotheist. A god impregnating a woman!!! How is that different from Zeus in Greek mythology?

And sure you have a sacred book that tells us, don't pay attention to the words, we are monotheist because we say so. The father, the son,... are all ONE GOD.

Why? Because we said so!!!

Well, I don't know about you but I need a little more than that.

Well, allow this Roman Catholic to explain how I see it.

We believe in one God, Father the almighty, creator of heaven and Earth, of all that is seen and unseen...

God the Father is GOD. Period. End of story. Everything in the universe was created by him, he is eternal, all knowing and all seeing. In other words, all the dominions that are usually divided among multiple gods in a typical pantheon belong to Him. All the religions that came before Judaism, Christianity and Islam came along were populated by assloads of deities with specific roles in nature. God doesn't have that issue, because he is the one GOD.

We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father, God From God, Light From Light, true God from true God. Begotten not made, one in being with the Father. Through him all things were made.
For our salvation he came down from heaven; he was born of the Virgin Mary and became Man. He was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered, died and was buried. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into Heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living dead and his Kingdom will have no end.

Read the above carefully. It is not describing a second God. It's describing the heir, avatar and vizier of the One God, God the Father. He was God's first creation, a focus for his power as he created the rest of the universe, his representative to and instrument of redemption for his lowliest creations (Us.) After the resurrection he became God's Prime Minister (which is why you pray for things in Jesus' name) and after the Rapture he will be sent to Earth to be the regional governor of everybody left. He is not God. He's God's kid, who will someday inherit the keys to part of Dad's Kingdom.

We believe in the Holy Sprit, the Lord, the Giver of Light, who proceeds from the Father and Son. With the Father and Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken to the prophets.

This is easy. The Holy Spirit is the personification of God's power. For you Doctor Strange fans, think of it as God's astral form. It influences events, it talks to the chosen, etc. etc., but only at the will of the One God and his heir. It is not God. It's his tool. Calling the Holy Spirit God is like saying Tim Taylor's hammer is Tim Taylor, or another Tim Taylor.

You aren't the first to question whether or not the Trinity puts the lie to the idea that Christianity is monotheistic, and you likely won't be the last, but polytheism has a requirement. There has to be more than one god. Not more than one aspect of a single god, not one God and a bunch of reality bending servants. More. Than. One. God. Christianity has one God. How the various christian sects might visualize that god doesn't change the fact that there's only one.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

If you want to rant against religion, rant against religion, but then don’t pretend to phrase it as a question. That’s a Tucker Carlson tactic.

If you didn’t question how Sinclair, Sheridan and Delenn could all be The One, you shouldn’t question this either.

 

[Chaos Descending]

... He (the Son) was God's first creation...

.. He is not God. He's God's kid, who will someday inherit the keys to part of Dad's Kingdom.

I am going to assume that maybe you misspoke as opposed to intentionally intending to promote Trinitarian Heresy. But this is certainly not orthodox Roman Catholic doctrine. God the Son is not a created being.

Referring to the aforementioned Athanasian creed:

"Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated."

And...

"The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding."

Edit: Your comments on the Holy Spirit are problematic too. Not sure what branch of Roman Catholicism you get all that from, but your explanation seems to include Arianism (a heresy condemned in the 4th Century) as well as possibly Sebellianism.

 

[Admiral2]

I am going to assume that maybe you misspoke as opposed to intentionally intending to promote Trinitarian Heresy. But this is certainly not orthodox Roman Catholic doctrine. God the Son is not a created being.

Referring to the aforementioned Athanasian creed:

"Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated."

And...

"The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding."

Edit: Your comments on the Holy Spirit are problematic too. Not sure what branch of Roman Catholicism you get all that from, but your explanation seems to include Arianism (a heresy condemned in the 4th Century) as well as possibly Sebellianism.

And I'm not going to waste both our time looking it up. All I know is i quoted the Apostle's Creed I've been reciting every Sunday since forever, and the point was to counter the notion that Christianity is polytheistic without sounding like a religious zealot.

So no, I make no claim to orthodoxy. I was baptized and confirmed into a Roman Catholic church in suburban Long Island, but interesting that you mention "branches" of Catholicism since, according to that same creed:

We believe in ONE holy Catholic and Apostolic church...

Which should preclude any branches, yet there's Roman Catholics, Irish Catholics, Greek Orthodox, etc. etc. and like that there, so I figure all us Catholics partitioning ourselves off is kind of heretical anyway, dontcha think?

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

There are/have been monotheistic religions other than the Abrahamic ones - for example, Atenism, Zoroastrianism, Bahá’í, Mukuru, Chukwu, Waaq, Shangdi, and Sikhism. Even in supposedly pantheistic religions can have a single, ultimate deity as for example in some 3rd century sects of Hellenistic pantheism and the one god Brahman in Hinduism, who is the creator, protector, and destroyer of everything else. So if you need a single god to worship, you're not spoilt for choice.

 

[Chaos Descending]

And I'm not going to waste both our time looking it up. All I know is i quoted the Apostle's Creed I've been reciting every Sunday since forever, and the point was to counter the notion that Christianity is polytheistic without sounding like a religious zealot.

So no, I make no claim to orthodoxy. I was baptized and confirmed into a Roman Catholic church in suburban Long Island, but interesting that you mention "branches" of Catholicism since, according to that same creed:

We believe in ONE holy Catholic and Apostolic church...

Which should preclude any branches, yet there's Roman Catholics, Irish Catholics, Greek Orthodox, etc. etc. and like that there, so I figure all us Catholics partitioning ourselves off is kind of heretical anyway, dontcha think?

I recite the Apostle's Creed frequently as well, both as part of Corporate Worship with the assembled saints as well as in family worship / devotional time. I grant that you've accurately quoted it, but your explanation of it with regard to the Trinitarian theology is at odds with the Roman Catholic Church, Greek Orthodoxy, Lutheranism, Presbyterianism, etc. Basically every branch of Christianity that isn't Oneness Pentecostal or Unitarian.

If you're ok with that, be ok with it, but that by no means helped clarify the issue for those who don't understand Christian Monotheism.

 

[Admiral2]

I recite the Apostle's Creed frequently as well, both as part of Corporate Worship with the assembled saints as well as in family worship / devotional time. I grant that you've accurately quoted it, but your explanation of it with regard to the Trinitarian theology is at odds with the Roman Catholic Church, Greek Orthodoxy, Lutheranism, Presbyterianism, etc. Basically every branch of Christianity that isn't Oneness Pentecostal or Unitarian.

If you're ok with that, be ok with it, but that by no means helped clarify the issue for those who don't understand Christian Monotheism.

Neither do phrases like "God the Son, God the Holy Spirit" which is why I deliberately avoided using them. Either way, I'd rather hear it from Swedish Borg whether my explanation made sense or not since that's who I was addressing. I know it wouldn't make sense to a devotee of scripture and doctrine. I didn't consult either when I came up with it.

It's already been said upthread. Most religious doctrine is contradictory, simply because it only has to make sense to the faithful. I approached the question with the assumption that the guy asking the original question is not faithful. If true, then pal, you can namedrop sects and quote catechisms all day long, but your explanation of Christianity is going to be just as useless as you think mine is.

 

[Swedish Borg]

There are/have been monotheistic religions other than the Abrahamic ones - for example, Atenism, Zoroastrianism, Bahá’í, Mukuru, Chukwu, Waaq, Shangdi, and Sikhism. Even in supposedly pantheistic religions can have a single, ultimate deity as for example in some 3rd century sects of Hellenistic pantheism and the one god Brahman in Hinduism, who is the creator, protector, and destroyer of everything else. So if you need a single god to worship, you're not spoilt for choice.

Can I talk about a religion without someone thinking that I want to destroy it and someone else saying (or implying ) that I wish to join it?

What if I started a discussion about dishwashers would you conclude that I either want to break one or be one? So why do you make that assumption about monotheism?