Miranda Class Phasers

[Timo]

1) Where do we see the continuing presence of Terrell and Chekov? Only Khan's bridge is glimpsed during the rendezvous/battle, and they are not there.

When Chekov earlier on called Carol Marcus, the Reliant would still have been warping somewhere between Ceti Alpha and Regula. After that, Khan would have reached Regula, jammed the station's comms, attacked, and interrogated the scientists. A logical time to leave Terrell and Chekov behind - thus meaning we know nothing about who got to Regula first, Khan or Kirk.

2) I think it unlikely that alert status really has anything to do with what systems are on and what are not - save for the alert lights themselves, of course. The lights are there to tell the crew to activate specific systems, but they are not required for activating those systems! Khan at No Alert might have a much more active ship than Kirk at Flaming Red Alert. And probably did, considering he had such a small crew that he'd have to start battle preparations well in advance of the encounter.

3) Agreed on every detail.

4) Or then vice versa - the torp blew up something when penetrating, and then itself exploded.

5) Agreed, although the novelization "explanation" is annoyingly verbose when anybody rigging a Christmas tree with the last year's half-functional lights knows how such a setup in itself can feature plenty of bypassing...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

1) Where do we see the continuing presence of Terrell and Chekov? Only Khan's bridge is glimpsed during the rendezvous/battle, and they are not there.

True, but during Khan's "He tasks me! He tasks me and I shall have him!" Chekov and Terrel are standing there zombie-like in the background. He may have sent them belowdecks during the interception, or he may have beamed them to Regula-1 just before changing course. But then, Khan fully expected to blow Enterprise out of the sky and had kind of given up on Genesis, so I think getting the information out of Enterprise would have been the icing on the cake. Only after Kirk SURVIVED his attack did it occur to him that he might still have a chance to get at Genesis if Kirk could lead him to it.

4) Or then vice versa - the torp blew up something when penetrating, and then itself exploded.

Hadn't thought of that... but it suddenly occurs to me that some of the old Jackill diagrams posit an experimental cloaking device being installed in the rear of the torpedo pod.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The tonnage estimates mean little if nothing.

The tonnage estimate is based entirely on volumetric analysis of the two ships, the ratio of their surface areas and a gross average density estimate derived from the Apollo Command Module, which is supposedly what the production crew of Star Trek Voyager used as a reference.

In any case, just the measure of VOLUME yields a similar difference, although the lower surface area of Reliant is important to note. More importantly, HE SHOWS HIS WORK and explains how the calculation was derived with the model. Not only did you not bother to use any actual model, you admitted you didn't bother to learn anything about the model you used to make your calculations in the first place.

In either case it's clear at this point that Reliant and Enterprise are two designs in roughly the same class, one of which is slightly smaller with a (proportionately) heavier engineering section.

 

[blssdwlf]

Several things jump to mind after watching TWOK with my son last night.

1) Chekov and Terrel were both still on board Reliant when Khan moves to intercept Enterprise. This would seem to suggest that Khan beat Enterprise back to Regula-1 on thruster power or at least had enough of a head start to get there close to or before Enterprise did, beam the two aboard Regula-1, and then slink off to a hiding spot to finish repairing their battle damage.

There are a couple of possibilities depending on how one interprets the scenes:

[Reliant]
KHAN'S NAVIGATOR (OC): Course to intercept Enterprise ready, sir.
KHAN: Helmsman?
JOACHIM: Sir. May I speak? ...We're all with you, sir, but consider this. We are free. We have a ship and the means to go where we will. We have escaped permanent exile on Ceti Alpha Five. You have proved your superior intellect, and defeated the plans of Admiral Kirk. You do not need to defeat him again.
KHAN: He tasks me. He tasks me and I shall have him. I'll chase him round the moons of Nibia and round the Antares maelstrom and round perdition's flames before I give him up. ...Prepare to alter course.
​

[Enterprise]
UHURA: Space Station Regula I. Please come in. Doctor Marcus. Please respond. This is Enterprise call... It's no use, there's no response from Regula I.
SPOCK: But no longer jammed?
UHURA: No sir. No nothing!
​

In the above scene, we see Terrell and Chekov standing there on Reliant's bridge.

1. Khan has not attacked Regula 1 yet and is only jamming transmissions. He just wanted to lure Kirk to Regula 1 with Chekov's message to Dr. Marcus. In this interpretation, Khan just ordered an intercept course, Joachim wants him to change his mind and somewhere along the line Khan decides to attack Regula 1 first. Which leads Khan giving a second order to alter course to Regula 1. Regula 1 is attacked and Terrell and Chekov are left there as he is running late to intercept Enterprise.

2. or Khan has already attacked Regula 1, didn't find anything and left with Terrell and Chekov leading to the scene on the bridge and they alter course from wherever they were originally heading to go intercept Enterprise. After getting beaten, Reliant races back to Regula 1 on impulse power to deposit Chekov and Terrell and has to go hide when they lose impulse power as well which leads to the line where they restore it.

3. or Khan has already attacked Regula 1, didn't find anything and left with Terrell and Chekov leading to the scene on the bridge. However, Khan alters course back to Regula 1 to drop off Terrell and Chekov before heading out to intercept Enterprise.

I'm leaning to #1 because up to the point before Khan says "prepare to alter course" we are led to believe Regula 1 was still transmitting/being jammed. But after Khan attacks Regula 1, he would have no reason to continue jamming Regula 1 and on the Enterprise we are told that jamming and transmission has stopped.

YMMV.

 

[Timo]

The argument about Khan not bothering with backup plans is a rather tempting one - but the timeline of the events there does IMHO support alternative #1.

Indeed, the whole "He tasks me!" speech could be taken to indicate that at this point, Khan is about to dive headfirst into a classic supervillain scheme of self-congratulatory levels of complexity. With his "Prepare to alter course!" command, he is about to surprise even his own crew with his astounding cleverness, and take Genesis before taking Kirk.

Of course, the attempt would end in failure - at which point Khan would do well to leave Terrell and Chekov behind so that not only might they help find Genesis, but the trick would also restore the faith of Khan's crew on their leader's cunning.

I guess #3 is the least likely one, calling for unnecessary back-and-forth movement. And #2 might indeed be thwarted by the argument about continuing jamming.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Saquist]

The tonnage estimates mean little if nothing.

The tonnage estimate is based entirely on volumetric analysis of the two ships, the ratio of their surface areas and a gross average density estimate derived from the Apollo Command Module, which is supposedly what the production crew of Star Trek Voyager used as a reference.

I've read the entire page... (the entire site)
Still speculative

In any case, just the measure of VOLUME yields a similar difference,

Not even remotely.

More importantly, HE SHOWS HIS WORK and explains how the calculation was derived with the model. Not only did you not bother to use any actual model, you admitted you didn't bother to learn anything about the model you used to make your calculations in the first place.

Wasn't necessary.
I could have gone through the same efforts and it would have meant nothing because I still couldn't prove (just as blssdwlf couldn't,) that all his variables were on par and that he wasn't in some way fudging things. That's why I didn't bother. It's a waste of time because it proves nothing...it's not verifiable.

G2k's may not be verifiable but he is an impartial source that you me and blssdwolf agree on to some extent.

In either case it's clear at this point that Reliant and Enterprise are two designs in roughly the same class, one of which is slightly smaller with a (proportionately) heavier engineering section.

Different classes
Different volumes
And according to canon one outguns the other.

 

[USS Jack Riley]

I am not usre I follow your argument on this one Saquist. Not saying I disagree, just not following your argument. If we are in agreement, I apologize for the long-winded explanation that follows.

The statement about Reliant outgunning Enterprise (or still outgunning and outrunning Enterprise) comes in when the Enterprise was damaged in the previous encounter (Khan's surprise attack) and we learn after Kirk & Co. beam back up that at least some systems (turbolifts, for example) are not functional below C deck. Kirk asks what is still functional, to which Spock replies, "Not much, Admiral."

IOW, yes, Reliant can out run and outgun us now, but if it weren't for Khan's earlier surprise attack, we would be at least at parity with, and probably more powerful than, Reliant. I argue that Enterprise is stronger, hence why Khan had to attack her with her pants/shields down in the first place, but there is no canon evidence to prove that one way or the other.

My thought has always been that the Constitutions had to be the strongest in fleet based on their mission profile. They were about to be phased out, however, in favor of the Excelsiors, once they came online. Still the best in the fleet, but about to be outmatched. Reliants (I forget their class name) were good, maybe even cruiser level, but not the same as the Constitutions (which were heavy cruisers at this point).

Just my $0.02.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The tonnage estimates mean little if nothing.

The tonnage estimate is based entirely on volumetric analysis of the two ships, the ratio of their surface areas and a gross average density estimate derived from the Apollo Command Module, which is supposedly what the production crew of Star Trek Voyager used as a reference.

I've read the entire page... (the entire site)
Still speculative

Less so than yours, and therefore valid.

Not even remotely.

Show your work.

I could have gone through the same efforts and it would have meant nothing because I still couldn't prove (just as blssdwlf couldn't,) that all his variables were on par and that he wasn't in some way fudging things.

The difference is we know for a fact what blssdwlf fudged and what he didn't, and we have upper and lower bounds to account for areas that MIGHT be fudged. Same on the volumetrics website, which also gives a range of estimates based on a continuum of possible unknowns.

Because you didn't show any meaningful calculations or explained how you derived them we have no idea whether or not your conclusion bears any resemblance to reality.

G2k's may not be verifiable but he is an impartial source that you me and blssdwolf agree on to some extent.

True as that is, you didn't actually USE G2k's model for your calculations, so that makes your conclusions highly suspect.

Different classes
Different volumes

The USS John F. Kennedy has a considerably lower volume than the USS John C. Stennis, and yet both of them are considered to be aircraft carriers.

And according to canon one outguns the other.

According to SPOCK, Reliant outguns the Enterprise shortly before they enter the nebula. It is, again, likely due to the former's heavier torpedo armament.

 

[Saquist]

Less so than yours, and therefore valid.

False:
I have no speculation. Speculations are not valid.

Show your work.

Done & Done

The difference is we know for a fact what blssdwlf fudged and what he didn't, and we have upper and lower bounds to account for areas that MIGHT be fudged.

Don't speak for me.
I do not have proof of his precisions I doubt you do either.

Same on the volumetrics website, which also gives a range of estimates based on a continuum of possible unknowns.

Whatever that means...
I know his calculations came to 6% more than Enterprise and G2k came to 16% less in volume. Sounds like nonsense.

True as that is, you didn't actually USE G2k's model for your calculations, so that makes your conclusions highly suspect.

False
I did use G2K source information from said model.
Just because you didn't see didn't mean it didn't happen.

The USS John F. Kennedy has a considerably lower volume than the USS John C. Stennis, and yet both of them are considered to be aircraft carriers.

Try again...
(I'm going to just roll on floor if you reply like I think you will)

According to SPOCK, Reliant outguns the Enterprise shortly before they enter the nebula. It is, again, likely due to the former's heavier torpedo armament.

According to you...(who is attempting derive specifics) where as the movie is general). Yours is speculation on his meaning with no source. My conclusions is backed by often occurrence and a primary definition. You reject it because of bias. Hence if you can object you will object even with out cause.

 

[blssdwlf]

I know his calculations came to 6% more than Enterprise and G2k came to 16% less in volume. Sounds like nonsense.

16% G2K's numbers are 7% less in volume for the Miranda. 217,770 / 234,928.

If anyone is curious, here is the data provided by Masao (notice there are no actual models exchanged, just the numbers):

http://flare.solareclipse.net/cgi2/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=001172;p=0

 

[blssdwlf]

While looking at the two filming models, it had occurred to me that calibrating the two ships to the same beam may not have been the correct approach. There are subtle sizing differences between the two ships when done this way. However, if we calibrate the ship size to the top dome/bridge module then features on the saucers like the twin phaser bank rectangles and decals start to be the same size. So, here is another volume measurement of 210,142 m3 with the Reliant 6.24% smaller in L/W/H dimension. This would put the Reliant at close to 12% smaller in volume when compared to my movie Enterprise model.

 

[Birdog]

While looking at the two filming models, it had occurred to me that calibrating the two ships to the same beam may not have been the correct approach. There are subtle sizing differences between the two ships when done this way. However, if we calibrate the ship size to the top dome/bridge module then features on the saucers like the twin phaser bank rectangles and decals start to be the same size. So, here is another volume measurement of 210,142 m3 with the Reliant 6.24% smaller in L/W/H dimension. This would put the Reliant at close to 12% smaller in volume when compared to my movie Enterprise model.

I wouldn't put too much stock in those source images because there is a lot of parallax distortion there. If you notice you can see the back of the bridge because the camera was aft of the saucer beam yet you can see in front of Enterprise's engines because the camera is ahead of the engines. The comparison you're making only works if the camera is in the exact same location relative to the saucer beam and centerline(fore/aft and distance from model) on both ships.

 

[blssdwlf]

I wouldn't put too much stock in those source images because there is a lot of parallax distortion there. If you notice you can see the back of the bridge because the camera was aft of the saucer beam yet you can see in front of Enterprise's engines because the camera is ahead of the engines. The comparison you're making only works if the camera is in the exact same location relative to the saucer beam and centerline(fore/aft and distance from model) on both ships.

@Birdog - I've noted for folks not to use anything that is off the centerline plane for the profile view. For the top view, it's only good from the plane of the bridge top area and saucer section. For my purposes, I only used the top of the bridge dome to scale to and got the distance from the center of the dome to the edge of the saucer in the plane with the least amount of distortion and cross-checked it with the side profile view. I was not interesting in getting any data from the nacelles and other points due to the camera. With the difference in diameter between the saucers I used that to adjust my Reliant model to match.

 

[Saquist]

I know his calculations came to 6% more than Enterprise and G2k came to 16% less in volume. Sounds like nonsense.

16% G2K's numbers are 7% less in volume for the Miranda. 217,770 / 234,928.

That's because you're still leaving the nacelles off.
In this case you didn't add the Constitution B nacelles to the Constitution B figure. Miranda's figure doesn't exclude the nacelle.

Interesting work on the size/scaling of Reliant to the Enterprise.
Those nacelles definitely aren't the same although meant to look the same.
Looks like Reliant was something of a less model in quality.

 

[Birdog]

I wouldn't put too much stock in those source images because there is a lot of parallax distortion there. If you notice you can see the back of the bridge because the camera was aft of the saucer beam yet you can see in front of Enterprise's engines because the camera is ahead of the engines. The comparison you're making only works if the camera is in the exact same location relative to the saucer beam and centerline(fore/aft and distance from model) on both ships.

@Birdog - I've noted for folks not to use anything that is off the centerline plane for the profile view. For the top view, it's only good from the plane of the bridge top area and saucer section. For my purposes, I only used the top of the bridge dome to scale to and got the distance from the center of the dome to the edge of the saucer in the plane with the least amount of distortion and cross-checked it with the side profile view. I was not interesting in getting any data from the nacelles and other points due to the camera. With the difference in diameter between the saucers I used that to adjust my Reliant model to match.

The point I was getting at is you can see the back plane of the bridge which is giving you extra apparent length. Since both ships were shot from their beam and the Reliant is shorter, The parrallax is different for each ship so the bridge length is worthless. That's ignoring the fact that they are fuzzy images to begin with and a single pixel difference on such a small comparison point would yield huge differences on the overall sizes. I have reverse engineered drawings before in the real world and you always take the longest possible known length to set your scale.

 

[blssdwlf]

The point I was getting at is you can see the back plane of the bridge which is giving you extra apparent length. Since both ships were shot from their beam and the Reliant is shorter, The parrallax is different for each ship so the bridge length is worthless. That's ignoring the fact that they are fuzzy images to begin with and a single pixel difference on such a small comparison point would yield huge differences on the overall sizes. I have reverse engineered drawings before in the real world and you always take the longest possible known length to set your scale.

I get your point Birdog. As I've said before but perhaps it isn't clear, I'm not using the back plane of the bridge of the profile. The top dome as indicated in red. The profile shot is just a cross-check. The longest possible known length at this point happens to be the width of the Enterprise. But we don't really know what the dimensions are of the Reliant. The next best reference point happens to be the bridge area because they have the same circle docking port in the back.

Since you've got some experience in reverse engineering drawings, I'd be happy to see or make one based on your procedures. The more numbers the merrier

 

[blssdwlf]

I know his calculations came to 6% more than Enterprise and G2k came to 16% less in volume. Sounds like nonsense.

16% G2K's numbers are 7% less in volume for the Miranda. 217,770 / 234,928.

That's because you're still leaving the nacelles off.
In this case you didn't add the Constitution B nacelles to the Constitution B figure. Miranda's figure doesn't exclude the nacelle.

Constitution B includes the nacelles. The original numbers, as they were sent to G2k:

Miranda - 217,770
Sabre - 239,317
Akira - 1,407,821
Steamrunner - 642,033
Prometheus- 769,670
Norway - 534,027
Constitution (TOS) - 211,248
Constitution (Refit) - 234,928

(It's all in that link on flare. )

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Less so than yours, and therefore valid.

I have no speculation. Speculations are not valid.

If you're serious about that then I will ignore absolute everything you post now and in the future that depends on speculation, starting with this post.

The thing is, I've seen this from you in five different threads over the past month. You start with an ENTIRELY speculative belief and then insist that you're correct, you mock and sneer and belittle anyone who disagrees with you until somebody like me comes along and hits with the numbers, at which point you either retract your speculation or stop posting altogether. I understand you have a very high opinion of your reasoning skills, but to convince EVERYONE ELSE you have to back it up with something concrete.

I do not have proof of his precisions I doubt you do either.

The method he used to derive his calculations are described right there on the page.

I did use G2K source information from said model.

Using the source information is not the same thing as the actual model, especially when you take it upon yourself to recalculate the model's parameters without knowing how those parameters were derived in the first place.

The USS John F. Kennedy has a considerably lower volume than the USS John C. Stennis, and yet both of them are considered to be aircraft carriers.

Try again...[/quote]
Try again WHAT? I made two statements here:
1) One has a higher volume than the other
2) They are both aircraft carriers

Which of those statements is incorrect?

My conclusions is...

Speculative, and therefore ignored.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

blssdlf, at this point the size difference between Enterprise and Reliant is purely a matter of nitpicking. This whole thing started because we were trying to establish that Reliant and Enterprise were both "cruisers" or similar types of vessels and that the overall difference between them, volume wise, was relatively minor. The point of contention we're apparently trying to settle is that Saquist believes the difference is too large for them to both be in the same "weight class" of vessel, thus he likes to present the difference in volume (and therefore, presumably, displacement) as more than 16%.

In the real world we have the Kitty Hawk class aircraft carrier (USS John F. Kennedy) with a displacement of about 82,000 tons. We also have the Nimitz class aircraft carrier (USS John C. Stennis) with a displacement of about 103,000 tons. Both vessels are considered "supercarriers." You will note that the difference in displacement is just over 20% in favor of the Stennis.

Leaving apart the fact that ship classifications tend to be somewhat arbitrary, much larger differences can exist, especially for smaller warships. The Royal Navy's type 45 destroyer, for example, has 35% higher displacement than its predecessor the Type-42.

For all intents and purposes Reliant and Enterprise can be considered approximately the same size; whether the difference is 6% or 16% is immaterial, as such a small indifference is MARGINAL AT BEST for ships of this type.

 

[Birdog]

The point I was getting at is you can see the back plane of the bridge which is giving you extra apparent length. Since both ships were shot from their beam and the Reliant is shorter, The parrallax is different for each ship so the bridge length is worthless. That's ignoring the fact that they are fuzzy images to begin with and a single pixel difference on such a small comparison point would yield huge differences on the overall sizes. I have reverse engineered drawings before in the real world and you always take the longest possible known length to set your scale.

I get your point Birdog. As I've said before but perhaps it isn't clear, I'm not using the back plane of the bridge of the profile. The top dome as indicated in red. The profile shot is just a cross-check. The longest possible known length at this point happens to be the width of the Enterprise. But we don't really know what the dimensions are of the Reliant. The next best reference point happens to be the bridge area because they have the same circle docking port in the back.

Since you've got some experience in reverse engineering drawings, I'd be happy to see or make one based on your procedures. The more numbers the merrier

My procedures won't work because Reliant's beam is an unknown distance and there is even some dispute on Enterprise's. I would proceed on the assumption that they are the same saucers forward of the beam positions because that appears to be designer's intent which leads us back to Reliant having a larger volume.

I bet if you matched saucer diameters that the phaser mounts and markings would line up good and the bridge differences would be a rounding error. That seems like the easiest solution.

It's not the end of the world for a "light" cruiser to out gun and out mass an older "heavy" cruiser. As a matter of fact there is current day precedent: The flight III Arleigh Burke Destroyers out mass and out gun early Ticonderoga Cruisers and nearly matches the firepower on later run Ticos.