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Lt. Saavik or Lt. Valeris

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los2188

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I was reading the other day about ST: Undiscovered Country and I learned that the role of Lt. Valeris was supposed to be Lt. Saavik. They made the role Lt. Valeris because first of all Kim Cattrall, who was the original pick to be Saavik in Wrath of Khan, didn't want to be the third person to play the character of Saavik, and second, Gene Roddenberry didn't want to have the beloved character of Saavik be a "bad guy." It's really a shame that he felt that way because I think having Saavik be the traitor would have been excellent. I'm just curious...would you rather it be Saavik or Valeris to be the traitor on ST: Undiscovered Country....?
 
I think having Saavik be the traitor would be fantastic character development.

However I love Valeris, who is quite different than Saavik. Great character.
 
Valeris. I love Saavik too much for her to be a traitor.

I liked her too, but it would have been PERFECT for her to have been the traitor. I mean she was half Romulan and Vulcan, so she has a certain emotion or passion about her that would have made total sense. It also wouldn't be the first time a "beloved" member of Starfleet turned. Granted Admiral Cartwright character doesn't quite compare to the Saavik character, but the point is that you can have something like that happen and not have a wicked backlash from Trekkers or not ruin anything, at least as far as I could tell. To me, it gives a certain realness and relatability to characters no matter who they are. To me Star Trek, especially the TNG generation has too much of an "everything and everybody is perfect" mentality to the movies and shows which I really hate at times.
 
There seemed to be disappointment that they couldn't get Kirstie Alley reprise her role as Saavik, from what I hear. I think the audience would've been more shocked and felt the betrayal that Spock felt in those scenes. It would've been a bigger story. But I am happy with Valeris even though VI is a deeply flawed movie.
 
Kim Cattrall, who was the original pick to be Saavik in Wrath of Khan

Nick Meyer's first pick.

Kirstie Alley won the long audition process, though, bookending a terrible car accident involving her parents. Alley explains in her book, her final weight loss achievement to win the part was only due to the stress of her parents' accident.
 
Valeris, I can't think of any motivation Saavik would have for such a betrayal. Although Valeris' motives aren't made that clear either.
 
Kirsty Alley was and still is a nut case. I understand she was in movies and Cheers, but Trek gave her her start and she supposedly was a big fan. She should have done the movies within the budget they were given for the love of it. It's not as if they were trying to screw her or something.

Anyway, I agree that Saavik would have been better than Valaris. Bringing another fem Vulcan protege in just added another layer of complexity. And it would have been more shocking and interesting if it was an established character and not a new comer. More of an emotional hit, like if the renegade doctor in "Ethics" had been Pulaski instead of some one randomly visiting the ship. There would be more drama and different angles to exploit.
 
I agree as well. I'm glad they chose a new character with Valeris. I don't think it would have fit Saavik's character to have her be a traitor.

What was Saavik's character, though? What was she other than an insure Vulcan cadet with some emotional leanings? Anything you could have done with her would have been some kind of growth. Since we know so little about her except her loyalty to Spock it would have been easy to make her a traitor blinded by emotion believing she was acting with logic.

And remember, above all that she was fond of David and was tortured at the hands of the Klingons. She would have had something in common with Kirk: revenge. Except she would teeter off the edge Kirk wouldn't go near and perhaps really let Kirk see the ugliness within himself.
 
What was Saavik's character, though? What was she other than an insure Vulcan cadet with some emotional leanings? Anything you could have done with her would have been some kind of growth. Since we know so little about her except her loyalty to Spock it would have been easy to make her a traitor blinded by emotion believing she was acting with logic.

And remember, above all that she was fond of David and was tortured at the hands of the Klingons. She would have had something in common with Kirk: revenge. Except she would teeter off the edge Kirk wouldn't go near and perhaps really let Kirk see the ugliness within himself.[/QUOTE]

THANK YOU!!! It would fit so perfectly to have Saavik be the traitor. I really don't think character has anything to do with it. Good people can do bad things just as much as the bad ones. It's really a shame that she wasn't on the movie. The impact would have been tremendous! Not that it matters much, but let's not forget that she was half Romulan too.
 
I also read a long time ago, on Wikipedia I believe, that Valeris was actually half Vulcan and half Klingon. Has anyone else read about that??
 
Savvik - I would have loved to have seen her make an impassioned speech about why they she believed that what she was doing was right for the Federation, and maybe even given Kirk and Co. a chance to reflect upon it.

Aside from her role in Big Trouble in Little China I really don't like Kim Cattrall, especially her voice. I think thats what turns me off of Valeris.
 
Kirsty Alley was and still is a nut case. I understand she was in movies and Cheers, but Trek gave her her start and she supposedly was a big fan. She should have done the movies within the budget they were given for the love of it. It's not as if they were trying to screw her or something.

They did try to screw with her. She was offered less for ST III than she received for ST II. Alley's agent counter-offered and Paramount chose not to even make a second offer. Contractually, they only had to offer. She was gone.

ST II was Alley's first professional gig in Hollywood. She was offered the lead role in a play (IIRC, "The Glass Menagerie"). As Bjo Trimble explained it at the time (Bjo was our convention guest), for an up and coming actress trying to get a foothold in Hollywood, lead actress in a stage show is a better, more sensible career choice than 8th banana (on reduced salary) on a second sequel.

Between ST II and ST III, Kirstie had played Saavik in a play (written by Walter Koenig) with the rest of the main cast at that huge, total financial failure of a convention, "Ultimate Fantasy". Her commitment to the ongoing film series wasn't in question. Paramount and/or Director Nimoy had simply decided they wanted to go in a different direction with Saavik.

For the love of it...
Really?

She should forfeit her reputation at such a young age? Accepting reduced payment, after doing a great job the first time, just so she can be appreciated by ST fans?

I also read a long time ago, on Wikipedia I believe, that Valeris was actually half Vulcan and half Klingon. Has anyone else read about that??

The novelization mentions that Valeris is a Klingon name, IIRC.
 
Between ST II and ST III, Kirstie had played Saavik in a play (written by Walter Koenig) with the rest of the main cast at that huge, total financial failure of a convention, "Ultimate Fantasy". Her commitment to the ongoing film series wasn't in question. Paramount and/or Director Nimoy had simply decided they wanted to go in a different direction with Saavik.
Interesting. Nimoy contends -- in I Am Spock -- that they offered Alley the role in TSFS, agreed on a salary, and then she and her agent later decided to up their asking price to one that was more than what even DeForest Kelley was making for the film, and that they were unwilling to talk or negotiate about it.

Now, obviously, I expect Nimoy's book to present things in a light that's favorable to him, but that's quite a major distance between Alley's story and Nimoy's. To the point that one pretty much has to be lying.

Anything to substantiate either story?
 
Interesting. Nimoy contends -- in I Am Spock -- that they offered Alley the role in TSFS, agreed on a salary, and then she and her agent later decided to up their asking price to one that was more than what even DeForest Kelley was making for the film, and that they were unwilling to talk or negotiate about it.

Anything to substantiate either story?

Only that Bjo's Kirstie anecdote was presented at a convention not long after the fact - and Nimoy's was many years later.

And agents making a big counter offer is to be expected. The counter offer was supposedly quite ridiculous - in the realm of Shatner's own salary, some rumours persist, but then the expectation was that Paramount would make a counter counter offer. That's the normal procedure. And Paramount chose not to make a second offer. Since Nimoy then went to the trouble of recasting a very different actress, changing the look of the eyebrows, and directing Robin Curtis very firmly, not permitting her to inject any emotions into her dialogue, indicates that Nimoy didn't want the Alley style of Saavik in his movie.

If Alley's agent really did agree on a price lower than her ST II salary, she would have been right to fire him/her. Supposedly Paramount said they were offering less than ST II "because sequels never make as much money". Alley as Saavik was one of ST II's success stories and she had been groomed to replace Leonard Nimoy. She had every right to expect a good deal.

There was a lot of fan resentment towards Alley for not returning and Bjo (who had had a chance to chat with her at the time) made an impassioned argument that Alley's choice was the best for her career at that time. Lead role in a prestigious play is an excellent, savvy addition to a brand new curriculum vitae. Reduced pay on only your second film in Hollywood (ST III) is not.

Funny you should mention De Kelley's salary. With ST V, Shatner made a point of getting him a big raise, since Paramount had underpaid him to be third banana on STs I-IV. He'd essentially retired from the business and his agent hadn't been very aggressive about salary, but he didn't have a very good pension fund. (Kelley also did his TNG appearance for scale, as a favour to DC Fontana.) So Alley's agent asking for De Kelley's equivalent salary on ST III might be about right. Her participation would have required more days work than most of the other cast members, so fourth banana salary sounds deserved.
 
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