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Losing Voyager

Obviously not, since drama, by its nature, will emphasize different things than happen in real life. NCIS is s prime example of this. It's a balance between realism and drama that I prefer, not ind escapism.

And if you think this century is depressing, never study history.

There haven't been any NCIS episode where wholke nations have been wiped out "for the sake of drama".


Oh yes!

And yes again!

Destruction implies nothing is left which is fundamentally incorrect, .
Two whole planets which are very important in the Star Trek history has been wiped out. I call that destruction, even if it's only in a drama and not for real.

[/QUOTE] At this point we are in circles. I'm out.[/QUOTE]
I totally agree on that. Let us end this debate and agree that we disagree about certain things in Star Trek.
 
There haven't been any NCIS episode where wholke nations have been wiped out "for the sake of drama".
No, just entire ships. Lives lost in the name of politics and damage control. It's darker and more tragic at several levels.

And the real world NCIS does not have these cases on the regular.
Two whole planets which are very important in the Star Trek history has been wiped out. I call that destruction, even if it's only in a drama and not for real.
It's just not though. Destruction means "there's nothing left." Except there is, there is life and potential and development and relationship and intrigue and options to explore. This is the foundation of human storytelling is that growth out of tragedy. It is foundational in Star Trek in TOS that humanity barely survived it's own destruction, and same with Vulcan. That out tragedy comes new relationships, like Praxis exploding ushering in a new era of peace with the Klingons.

I totally agree on that. Let us end this debate and agree that we disagree about certain things in Star Trek.
Pretty much the whole of what we like in Star Trek. And yes, I will end my interaction on this here.
 
Another problem was how Voyager couldn't really flesh out its surroundings. Look at how Farscape did it with the Peacekeepers and Scarrans and the overall feeling we got with the Uncharted Territories.

Again, this was because most of Farscape's cast were aliens FROM that area of space so we got to explore it through them and their histories there.

Voyager should have done the same, but this was due to the conflict between the showrunners with how some wanted to ignore what was going on outside and focus only on the ship passing through while others wanted to really bother seeing how the DQ could be different from the Alpha Quadrant.

Really, I think they should have stuck to the external and made the show less about Voyager passing through and more about what impact their presence is having on the Delta Quadrant

It's what Farscape did, it's what LEXX did and NuBSG used its fleet to be its different worlds it kept exploring rather than focus solely on what was happening on the Galactica.
 
Another problem was how Voyager couldn't really flesh out its surroundings. Look at how Farscape did it with the Peacekeepers and Scarrans and the overall feeling we got with the Uncharted Territories.

Again, this was because most of Farscape's cast were aliens FROM that area of space so we got to explore it through them and their histories there.

Voyager should have done the same, but this was due to the conflict between the showrunners with how some wanted to ignore what was going on outside and focus only on the ship passing through while others wanted to really bother seeing how the DQ could be different from the Alpha Quadrant.

Really, I think they should have stuck to the external and made the show less about Voyager passing through and more about what impact their presence is having on the Delta Quadrant

It's what Farscape did, it's what LEXX did and NuBSG used its fleet to be its different worlds it kept exploring rather than focus solely on what was happening on the Galactica.

I agree with this. The closest we ever got to seeing Voyager's impact of their travels was "HOPE AND FEAR" (when Arturis goes after Janeway for making the deal with the Borg against Species 8472 and getting his race assimilated, which it's never how anyone would know about that outside the crew) and "LIVING WITNESS" (which took place centuries later).

To be fair to VOY, though, this is no different than TNG. We virtually never got a look at the impact of the Enterprise on their visits to other worlds, and VOY is in many ways 'TNG-lite' .

We also really didn't get a deep fleshing out of the Delta Quadrant. Though for seasons 1 and 2, Voyager came across as much more advanced than pretty much everyone there (almost no one having transporter or replicator technology, for example)... up until they get to the Nekrit Expanse about halfway through season 3. It gave that section of the Delta Quadrant a feel of being somewhat primitive and not really focused on technology (a stark contrast to the Gamma Quadrant, where every race seen is highly advanced in technology). Probably also explains why the Borg didn't appear until the Nekrit Expanse... there was nothing worth assimilating in that region. (One could argue the Vidiians with their medical technology, but Borg nanoprobes can do pretty much the same thing as organ replacements. Plus, the phage probably makes them too sick to be useful enough as drones.)
 
There haven't been any NCIS episode where wholke nations have been wiped out "for the sake of drama".

It happened in TOS and in TNG, too. (For example the Borg assimilated countless species, wrecked numerous homeworlds. Or the NOMAD probe that had just destroyed the entire Malurian race when Kirk encountered it). Just for the sake of drama.

Or is it less grievous since those guys didn't happen to be a main protagonist race such as the Vulcans or Romulans, and it happened offscreen?

(One could argue the Vidiians with their medical technology)

I shudder to think what would happen should they acquire it after all. They wouldn't even have to touch you anymore or board your ship to assimilate you. Just beam some nanoprobes over, straight into the bloodstreams of every lifesign and wait ....
 
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It happened in TOS and in TNG, too. (For example the Borg assimilated countless species, wrecked numerous homeworlds. Or the NOMAD probe that had just destroyed the entire Malurian race when Kirk encountered it). Just for the sake of drama.

Or is it less grievous since those guys didn't happen to be a main protagonist race such as the Vulcans or Romulans, and it happened offscreen?

How many of the TNG main characters were killed by The Borg?

OK, I might be a bit cynical here when it comes to this but the destruction we have seen in TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY when it comes to destruction in order to create effects and drama have been on planets or colonies who showed up only in one particular episode or on Federation spaceships with unknown crewmembers or on Klingon, Romulan, Cardassian or Vulvan ships with unknown crewmembers. People who have been killed off have been unknown ensigns or lieutenants, except when some main actor had quit and they (of course) have to kill off the character.

But annihilating Vulcan and Romulus is another thing. Here we are talking about very important worlds and species which have had and still have great significance for the Star Trek Universe as such only because some ignorant, ego-maniac producer must do something to put his mark on the product. If this continues, it can have a devastating effect on Star Trek. In fact, it already has since Star Trek has become just another doom-and-gloom project when it comes to entertainment.

The worst thing is that it has spread even more, even to the books. If great characters or whole planets arent destroyed in the series, there will be destroyed in upcoming books.

Personally I have had enough!

I refuse to accept:
The destruction and humiliation of Kes
The annihilation of Gowron
The destruction of
Garak in the recent published book Second Self
What I suspect is a destruction of
Bashir in some book, I haven't got all information of that yet
The destruction of Vulcan and all future consequences of that
The destruction of Romulus and all future consequences of that
The Mutant Ninja Turtles who were supposed to be "Klingons" in DSC
Picard as an android

Therefore I won't watch any Star Trek series or buy any book in which those events are mentioned or have some impact on the story in them.

I wont't watch a series or read a book until I'm 100% convinced that any of the events mentioned above are mentioned or affects the story and events in them.

My motto will be: If you want to read a good Star Trek story then write it yourself! :techman:
 
But annihilating Vulcan and Romulus is another thing. Here we are talking about very important worlds and species which have had and still have great significance for the Star Trek Universe as such only because some ignorant, ego-maniac producer must do something to put his mark on the product.

Romulus and Vulcan never were particularly important for the Star Trek Franchise, as I see it. They just served as a backdrop to tell stories.
Romulans and Vulcans, on the other hand, were and are important, and they still are around aplenty.

But perhaps it's a difference in attitude as well. I enjoy the stories told in the Star Trek universe (and the themes they bring with them), but I'm not necessarily attached to the attributes (read: the characters) required to tell those stories.

It's similar when I go to some concert of a world famous musician or artist. I enjoy the music they play; I don't (necessarily) adore the artist.
 
Romulus and Vulcan never were particularly important for the Star Trek Franchise, as I see it. They just served as a backdrop to tell stories.
Romulans and Vulcans, on the other hand, were and are important, and they still are around aplenty.

But perhaps it's a difference in attitude as well. I enjoy the stories told in the Star Trek universe (and the themes they bring with them), but I'm not necessarily attached to the attributes (read: the characters) required to tell those stories.

It's similar when I go to some concert of a world famous musician or artist. I enjoy the music they play; I don't (necessarily) adore the artist.

I never adore musical artists because they are humans and have faults just like me and everybody else.

However, there are some of them I have a certain admiration for because they seem to be good and likeable people or because they have overcome some addictions or other problems.

There are also some real a**holes who I don't admire or even like as persons but I might like their music.

So I think that you and me think the same there.

As for Romulans and Vulcans, the destruction of their home worlds will affect their future appearance and importance in Star Trek and I don't think it will be in a good way. I do find it totally unnecessary to come up with the stories in which their planets were wiped out and I simply can't accept that.

As for series like Star Trek and such, there are two things which I highly value:

1. Good storytelling with well-thought and well-explained events.
2. Likeable characters.

TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY (at least for three seasons) had that.

I might lose the interest for a series if the quality of the stories starts to decline after two or three seasons.

I might also lose interest for a series if characters I like disappears for different reasons, especially if I don't get an honest and believable explanation why this and that character isn't in the series anymore.

There are three series in which I took an immediale liking to all characters already from the start: Voyager, NCIS and CSI New York. With all other series I have liked and still like where the characters have grown on me during a certain process, such as DS9 which I found OK from the start but became better and better the more I watched it due to the writing and how the character developed.

As for Voyager, I didn't like the way Kes was dumped and the pathetic explanations for that. I could actually live with the changes in NCIS even if I didn't like some of the changes due to the fact that the new characters were quite OK. But when main character Gibbs left, the series sort of died for me because it was the last of the original characters who was left and all of a sudden I realized that "hey, what's left now is just second hand characters" even if the storytelling still is quite good.

Watching NCIS now is like watching a Beatles without John, Paul, George or Ringo with Jimmy Nichol (who temporarily replaced Ringo as drummer during a tour due to Ringo having his tonsils removed in 1964) as drummer plus three unknown musicians. The music might still be good but it won't be right without the legendary originals.

So characters are very important to me.

There are also examples of sereies I've dumped because I found them downright bad, such as DSC where I found the characters bland and boring, the stories boring and the "Klingon Ninja Turtles" horrible and ENT because I found the characters boring, the stories weak with lots of screwing up of established Trek history and because I was dead against a retro series then.

Then of course we have the infamous Stargate Universe which I ditched after 4 episodes because I found it so incredible lousy but started to watch again since a friend of mine told me that he had fallen asleep twice while watching it. It became a joke between us after that, sort of: "Finally Friday and what do we have tonight! Staaaargate Universe!"
:lol:

Oh me and my twisted humor! :)
 
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Romulus and Vulcan never were particularly important for the Star Trek Franchise, as I see it. They just served as a backdrop to tell stories.
Romulans and Vulcans, on the other hand, were and are important, and they still are around aplenty.

But perhaps it's a difference in attitude as well. I enjoy the stories told in the Star Trek universe (and the themes they bring with them), but I'm not necessarily attached to the attributes (read: the characters) required to tell those stories.

It's similar when I go to some concert of a world famous musician or artist. I enjoy the music they play; I don't (necessarily) adore the artist.
Precisely so. Nothing has removed the Romulans or the Vulcans from the story. The stories follow natural consequences of events and explore the drama unfolding. It gives opportunity for characters to rise up and become better through adversity. I'll take that over formulaic exploration.
 
How often did VOYAGER hit the reset button? Let's check out a few examples...

"THRESHOLD" - not even a mention of attempting to solve the 'matter of navigation', which B'Elanna said was the only real obstacle to going warp 10 and home, ever again.

"INVESTIGATIONS" - the warp coils were completely burned to the point of needing new coils to replace them, but were completely spotless the next episode.

"DEADLOCK" - the entire ship was badly, badly damaged. But was spotless the very next episode.

"REAL LIFE" - never see The Doctor's holographic family again. Nor any sign of any impact it had on him afterward.

"MORTAL COIL" - not only does Neelix not need to keep taking nanoprobes again (which was stated in the episode he needed to be injected with them regularly), but bringing a crewman back from death using the nanoprobes was never seen again.

"COLLECTIVE" - baby Borg was never seen or mentioned again.


These are just a few examples. And this doesn't even include the time travel reset buttons.


As for DS9's final season, it was BY FAR the most cohesive and good quality season 7 between TNG, DS9, and VOY. TNG season 7 was basically completely out of gas, and VOY season 7 was very middling and boring.



What are you talking about? The "reset button" were used in these episodes? I thought you were talking about the use of time travel, not minor plot points. Wait . . . are you serious? You might as well make the same complaints about the other Trek shows, including "DS9". Speaking of which . . . let's just say that we can agree to disagree about the quality of Season Seven for that show.
 
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What are you talking about? The "reset button" were used in these episodes? I thought you were talking about the use of time travel, not minor plot points. Wait . . . are you serious? You might as well make the same complaints about the other Trek shows, including "DS9". Speaking of which . . . let's just say that we can agree to disagree about the quality of Season Seven for that show.

The reset button of those listed episodes has been mentioned in my post that you quoted.

And these are not minor plot points. For example, "DEADLOCK"... the ship is battered and damaged everywhere and so badly that the bridge wasn't even going to be habitable for days. But the very next episode, "INNOCENCE", the ship is SPOTLESS. That is a reset button, particularly for a ship with very limited resources and no access to a Starfleet repair facility.

And yes, I am serious. Because with TNG and DS9, at least they are in or near Federation space, so repairs can be made without too much difficulty. VOYAGER's entire premise is being on the other side of the galaxy with no Starfleet help. Why else would there be lots of dialogue about limited resources on board, particularly those early seasons?
 
Perhaps they ran into one of those Dead Stop repair stations in between episodes.

(Janeway: B'elanna, why does the alien computer voice sound identical to yours?
Torres: I don't know captain, I guess it's just one of those incredible cosmic coincidences).
 
The reset button of those listed episodes has been mentioned in my post that you quoted.

And these are not minor plot points. For example, "DEADLOCK"... the ship is battered and damaged everywhere and so badly that the bridge wasn't even going to be habitable for days. But the very next episode, "INNOCENCE", the ship is SPOTLESS. That is a reset button, particularly for a ship with very limited resources and no access to a Starfleet repair facility.

And yes, I am serious. Because with TNG and DS9, at least they are in or near Federation space, so repairs can be made without too much difficulty. VOYAGER's entire premise is being on the other side of the galaxy with no Starfleet help. Why else would there be lots of dialogue about limited resources on board, particularly those early seasons?
Exactly what I didn't like with the episode Deadlock.

The writers actually did have two choices when it came to the premise for the show:
1. Avoid all stories which damages the ship due to the premise about limited resources and such. Avoid possible waste of torpedoes and shuttles for the same reason.

2. Follow the premise and let the bridge be damaged for at least 3-4 episodes. Waste the torpedoes and shuttles for the sake of effects but let the viewers know that Voyager now is out of shuttles and torpedoes or explain that the ship has a Shuttle and Torpedo Building Team which is capable of building new shuttles and torpedoes.
 
Perhaps they ran into one of those Dead Stop repair stations in between episodes.

(Janeway: B'elanna, why does the alien computer voice sound identical to yours?
Torres: I don't know captain, I guess it's just one of those incredible cosmic coincidences).
Janeway: We do run in to a lot of those. Get my coffee!
 
Voyager should have done the same, but this was due to the conflict between the showrunners with how some wanted to ignore what was going on outside and focus only on the ship passing through while others wanted to really bother seeing how the DQ could be different from the Alpha Quadrant.


This is why every time I call myself checking the Voyager thread to see if there is something worth reading about and all I encounter is petty complaints, because Trek fans want the most minor reason to bitch and moan about this show. Every damn time. I've written more substantial articles about Voyager, when I have a complaint about something.
 
This is why every time I call myself checking the Voyager thread to see if there is something worth reading about and all I encounter is petty complaints, because Trek fans want the most minor reason to bitch and moan about this show. Every damn time. I've written more substantial articles about Voyager, when I have a complaint about something.
It's pretty much every show. Trek fans, as a group, is notoriously known for nitpicking.

My only complaint with Voyager is the failure to follow through on the premise.
 
This is why every time I call myself checking the Voyager thread to see if there is something worth reading about and all I encounter is petty complaints, because Trek fans want the most minor reason to bitch and moan about this show. Every damn time. I've written more substantial articles about Voyager, when I have a complaint about something.

While there have been a couple things mentioned in this thread that might be called 'minor complaints', quite a lot of them are reasonable complaints. (Examples: inconsistent writing of characters, persistent use of the reset button, abandoning much of the basic premise of the series after the first episode.)

And while some of these things have happened on other shows, the frequency of these things and how often VOY called attention to it with contradictory dialogue really makes it stand out more so than the others.

(And I really DO love VOYAGER... I'm just not blind to its glaring flaws.)


Since you brought it up by saying you've 'written more substantial articles about Voyager, when I have a complaint about something'... what would you consider a 'substantial complaint' or not a 'petty complaint'?
 
It's pretty much every show. Trek fans, as a group, is notoriously known for nitpicking.

My only complaint with Voyager is the failure to follow through on the premise.

As only complaints go, this one is a doozy though.

‘Undermined then discarded it’s own premise in favour of nothing’ is a biggie in terms of a work of fiction.
 
Should Voyager have gotten lost later in the first season? We could have seen a little more of how their mission was supposed to work, get to know the characters who died better and feel their loss more keenly.

Also, would you have liked to see what was going on back in Federation space a bit sooner, regarding their disappearance - from the POV of their families? Maybe a partially set on DS9 episode where family of Voyager crew come to process their loss?
The Maquis in Voyager were the only crossover for DS9 (except the beginning at Quarks, I guess)
I remember being excited for a new Star Trek (and I loved DS9), but as soon as i realized they were just going to be lost the whole time, and none of my favorite aliens from alpha quadrant or the other side of the wormhole would be in it... i stopped watching. Mostly I didn't like the feeling of being 'lost in space'

I tried a rewatch later but ended up just skipping to the finale to see them finally make it back home and I had mixed feelings about it

Now it's 2024 and i'm trying to start a rewatch but whenever they say 'Maybe this will get us back home!' I can help but think with a sigh... "Uh, no, no it won't get you home".

I keep thinking they could make it home in the first season and then create new story lines..and who would stay on board.. there were endless possiblities i suppose.
 
Should Voyager have gotten lost later in the first season? We could have seen a little more of how their mission was supposed to work, get to know the characters who died better and feel their loss more keenly.

Also, would you have liked to see what was going on back in Federation space a bit sooner, regarding their disappearance - from the POV of their families? Maybe a partially set on DS9 episode where family of Voyager crew come to process their loss?
I think maby voyager could've implemented an episode or 2 each season portraying the lives of those love ones/friends of those crew members on Voyager, shown how how they were going about the loss of Voyager. Also maby headquarters could've had an episode in the first 2 season showing how they were going about with the loss of Voyager too.
Or they would've had a few episodes like 1-3 at the end of Voyager with celebration and stories. Voyagers crew recatching up with life at home and visversia with federation and those close with Voyagers crew hearing of Voyagers journey back home.
Should Voyager have gotten lost later in the first season? We could have seen a little more of how their mission was supposed to work, get to know the characters who died better and feel their loss more keenly.

Also, would you have liked to see what was going on back in Federation space a bit sooner, regarding their disappearance - from the POV of their families? Maybe a partially set on DS9 episode where family of Voyager crew come to process their loss?
I think maby voyager could've implemented an episode or 2 each season portraying the lives of those love ones/friends of those crew members on Voyager, shown how how they were going about the loss of Voyager. Also maby federation headquarters could've had an episode in the first 2 season showing how they were going about with the loss of Voyager too.

Or they could've had a few episodes like 1-3 at the end of Voyager with celebration and stories. Voyagers crew recatching up with life at home and visversia with federation and those close with Voyagers crew hearing of Voyagers journey back home.
 
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