Knock Knock (Grade & Discussion Thread)

[Mr Awe]

Why would it cause a paradox? The Doctor has met himself quite a bit over the years...

Yes, and it's usually presented as something that should not happen. In fact, in the classic series, it almost always happened with the assistance of Time Lord technology. In The Two Doctors, I don't believe that was the case, but it did cause some temporal weirdness in the 6th Doctor.

The Master/Mistress is always happy to hear about death.

Reread my post, I'm talking about the possibility of a protagonist being in the vault, which is what some people think is possible.

I'm going to be shocked and amazed if it's not the Master/Mistress. And I think that's the only mystery, is it Simm or Gomez inside?
I'm thinking it's Simm and Gomez goes and breaks him out.

Right now, I still think Simm is the most likely. But, it could be a twist.

Mr Awe

 

[Professor Zoom]

Reread my post, I'm talking about the possibility of a protagonist being in the vault, which is what some people think is possible.

The Doctor is the protagonist in Doctor Who.
Do you mean antagonist? Which is like the definition of the Master.

 

[Mr Awe]

The Doctor is the protagonist in Doctor Who.
Do you mean antagonist? Which is like the definition of the Master.

Reread more carefully and you'll see that I said A protagonist. The ones under discussion were people like a different incarnation of the Doctor, Susan, etc.

Personally, I think it is more likely to some villain.

 

[Marc]

I'm thinking it's Simm and Gomez goes and breaks him out.

thus breaking the first law of time.

Good thing the Timelords aren't around to go apeshit over it.

 

[The Wormhole]

Reread my post, I'm talking about the possibility of a protagonist being in the vault, which is what some people think is possible.

Although I'm 99% certain it is the Master in there, 1% of me is entertaining the idea it could be the Valeyard., which is a sort of protagonist, given he is a future Doctor.

 

[Mr Awe]

Although I'm 99% certain it is the Master in there, 1% of me is entertaining the idea it could be the Valeyard., which is a sort of protagonist, given he is a future Doctor.

There you go, confusing things!

I'm not a huge fan of the Valeyard. However, one thing that I've wanted to see since the 80s was some great interactions between the Master and the Valeyard. A truly freaked out Master meeting someone more evil than he is. Maybe even have the Valeyard using, abusing, and manipulating the Master, which ultimately causes the Master to join forces with the Doctor.

That'll never happen.

 

[Mr Soak]

I'd prefer it to be the Rani/The Monk.

 

[Lonemagpie]

The Doctor is the protagonist in Doctor Who.
Do you mean antagonist? Which is like the definition of the Master.

Not necessarily- Protagonist is the character driving the story, trying to do something (being proactive, if you like). The Antagonist is the opposer, trying to stop that. So, for example, Indiana Jones is the protagonist of Raiders, trying to find the Ark, while Hans is the protagonist of Die Hard, andJohn McClane the antagonist trying to stop him. Then again, the roles can be different for different subplots or layers in the same story - so in Die Hard again, McClane is also the Protagonist in his quest to reunite with Holly, and Hans the antagonist in the way...

 

[Professor Zoom]

Not necessarily- Protagonist is the character driving the story, trying to do something (being proactive, if you like). The Antagonist is the opposer, trying to stop that. So, for example, Indiana Jones is the protagonist of Raiders, trying to find the Ark, while Hans is the protagonist of Die Hard, andJohn McClane the antagonist trying to stop him. Then again, the roles can be different for different subplots or layers in the same story - so in Die Hard again, McClane is also the Protagonist in his quest to reunite with Holly, and Hans the antagonist in the way...

Sure. But, the Doctor is the protagonist of Doctor Who. Generally speaking.

 

[Lonemagpie]

Sure. But, the Doctor is the protagonist of Doctor Who. Generally speaking.

Of the series as a whole, yes. Of a given story or arc, not necessarily. And of course you get dramatic conflict from two protagonists clashing (which is actually when the Master works best - when both Timeys see themselves as the star of their own story)

 

[Professor Zoom]

Of the series as a whole, yes. Of a given story or arc, not necessarily. And of course you get dramatic conflict from two protagonists clashing (which is actually when the Master works best - when both Timeys see themselves as the star of their own story)

I would argue, that dramatically, all drama works best when the both the protagonist and antagonist see themselves as the protagonist in the story. As the hero, as the one doing the right thing. But, in the end, generally, the protagonist is the protagonist, the one the audience is cheering for.

It's sort of the problem with the Hero genre--which I would lump Doctor Who, Superheroes, Spies in... The hero generally waits around for the villain to do something so the hero has something to do. Does that mean in every Superman story he's actually the antagonist and Lex is the protagonist? That Batman is the antagonist? Is Sherlock Holmes? No one would really consider them the antagonist. Generally speaking they are the protagonist.

I get your suggestion that the protagonist is the one drives the story. But, I disagree. Because the protagonist is also the main character, the one at the center. Using your example of Die Hard, while Hans is the one who sets OFF the story, I would argue, his actions are the inciting incident. It's McClane's actions that drive the story. He's the one at the center. He's the one that we are first introduced to. Protagonist literally means the first player, the chief part.

But, again, it is a problem of the Hero "genre." The hero has nothing to do until a villain does something--but, that doesn't make the villain the protagonist. It just makes the villain's actions the inciting incident.

 

[Lonemagpie]

Varies according to story and setp. But yeah, it's especially a thing with the heroic genre- the point being that hero doesn't necessarily equal protagonist, but everybody assumes that it does.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Did anyone check out the 3D binaural audio version of the episode? I'd love to check it out but it's only on the BBC iPlayer. Not sure if it's just a gimmick or is actually more immersive but it sounds interesting.

 

[TommyR01D]

There was no clear verdict on the quality of this episode.
The poll mean is 3.49, which puts it -0.31 from Series 9.

 

[DimesDan]

The poll mean is 3.49, which puts it -0.31 from Series 9.

Is the previous poll still open and I assume it has the same amount of choices.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I managed to "find" the binaural version of the episode. These things don't seem to work very well with my bad ears.

However, I got a couple of questions for the Brits out there (or others who know):

Freshers Party? What is that?

When discussing with Nardole:
"Well, you don't have to go to outer space to find monsters. There are plenty of things that want to kill you right here on Earth."
"Result." <-- what does this mean?

Is Mexican food common in the UK? I was a little surprised when the Doctor brought Mexican food to the vault. It's a thing here in the US but they're our neighbor.

 

[DimesDan]

Freshers Party? What is that?

A party at the beginning of the new academic year.

"Result."

Good pretty much.

Is Mexican food common in the UK? I was a little surprised when the Doctor brought Mexican food to the vault. It's a thing here in the US but they're our neighbor.

Yes it is, you can even buy it from supermarkets and restaurants too.

 

[N-121973]

I live maybe two-minutes walk from the estate agents where the students first meet David Suchet's character. I had absolutely no idea they were shooting there, I go past it almost every day on my way to or from work. In fact I walked past it earlier this evening on my way to one of the local fish & chip shops to get my dinner. It must have been shot early in the morning.

 

[publiusr]

Lucky, lucky.