Klingon Warriors (why is it that...)

[Deimos Anomaly]

Commonly Klingons are described in the show as great warriors who are trained in vicious combat from childhood, etc. etc, and characters have several times mentioned this badassitude just in passing. Hell even in DS9 there is stuff about "drawing blood in a warrior's training excercise"

So from the description, you'd end up expecting some kinda uber Space Spartans...

But... that's not what you get. When it actually comes to combat, what's presented are a bunch of buffoons who clumsily wave knives around and generally get their asses kicked all the time by pretty much everyone.

This is ridiculous. Don't the people in charge of making the show realise this?

 

[XKin]

I noticed that. People like Jazdia being able to take out like 10 Klingon Warriors without breaking a sweat. And any humans seem to take out Klingons with not trouble.

 

[Deimos Anomaly]

The one that sticks out in my mind is a certain DS9 ep in which one Kira Nerys, a skinny, female, heavily pregnant Bajoran, in short order hammered four or five of the Empire's Finest in hth combat, and made it look embarrassingly easy.

 

[Red Ranger]

This is true. Could it be that Klingons are all talk, no bat'leth? I do recall, though, that in "Way of the Warrior," Kira did get stabbed by one, and another knocked around O'Brien pretty good and would have killed him if it weren't for Worf. -- RR

 

[Frodo Lives]

Which episode was that exactly? The only time I remember Kira taking down a bunch of Klingons was in Way of the Warrior, and she certainly wasn't pregnant then - not to mention that she's an experienced resistance fighter who spent years fighting the Cardassians, obviously honing her personal combat abilities - and the Klingons still managed to score a hit off her, though she got better.

I'm pretty sure the only example we have of Klingons being truly inept in personal combat is WOTW, and everyone else seems to take their cue from that. Every other time, whenever a main character takes on a Klingon it's pretty much mono a mono, where the odds on our hero using his wits to overcome the opponent are greatly increased.

And why exactly MUST the Klingons be as overhyped and exagerated as the Spartans in 300? Sure, they're a race of warriors (or so they say) but that doesn't mean that every single one of them must be a peak-performance killing-machine, some will no doubt have honed their skills better than others, and it's likely the hordes of Klingons in WOTW were the bottom rugs of the Klingon fighting force, cannon fodder and so forth.

Though I wish we'd seen a few more experienced Klingon Warriors, other than Worf, Martok or Gowron.

 

[estrea]

Thank you, Frodo Lives. One must remember in Trekverse, the Federation are the good guys. Ergo, we can't have Klingons bashing their brains in during every encounter. The initials I won't use left much to be desired with this fan -- the Klingons being lead by an egomaniac throwing away lives and ships during the Dominion War. Gr-r-r. Although I understand where it was leading -- to Martok becoming Chancellor and Worf becoming Ambassador. The other bone I have to pick is the lack of technological advancement over 100+ years in ship and weapons design. Irk, irk, irk. Thank you. I feel much better now.

 

[General Martok]

I wouldn't say there was a lack of technological advancement in 100+ years. Look at the Vor'cha cruiser; it's definitely larger, stonger, more impressive, etc. than a TOS D-7. And then there's the Negh'Var.

As for other Klingon technology, particularly weapons technology, remember that it serves the culture. How hyped-up does a disruptor need to be? It is a weapon, a tool, nothing more, and if a simple weapon from 100 years ago will work reliably, why change it? It's the same reason so many real militaries continue to use the AK-47. And Klingons prefer to use their bladed weapons anyway.

 

[GrowlingDog]

Yea, i think the klingons should have been waay better at combat. NO human should have been able to beat more than 1 of them in head to head combat, let alone 4 or 5.
I have trained and taught Martial Arts/Muay Thai fulltime for most of my adult life and i can say with 100% surety that the chances of a 50kg woman with a lot less or even as much experience as me in fighting taking me out in a Head to Head fight is 0. The notion that they could take out 4-5 guys similar to myself is just ridiculous.
They put 2 fighters in the ring that are the same weight, gender and of similar experience for a very good reason.
I am not writing this to blow my trumpet, it just is what it is.
A Klingons muscles should be denser, stronger and his reflexes and timing should be much better than a human MALES. A 50kg human FEMALE would just not have the body to make an impact on a 100kg Klingon, even if her fighting skill was greater than his. Now, that's not to say a Klingon couldn't be beaten with "sneakiness" before a fight even began but if he was wise to you, you would be well, screwed.
Of course, this is just TV and women being able to take out a bunch of guys far bigger then themselves, seems to be quite popular on TV, ala, Tombraider, Charlies Angels and co'

 

[Cyke101]

I think we could chalk it up to the Inverse Ninja Rule, except this time in space (and that Klingons are more like Samurai than Ninja, but hey, what the heck).

And I offer proof, too. Whenever we see Klingons en masse, yes, they get pummeled. But set one on its own, a la Worf or Kruge, and they can kick a good amount of booty by themselves.

Therefore, I believe if you sic a lone, competent Klingon warrior alone on a starship, said Klingon will do considerable damage against the crew. I'm pretty sure DS9 Worf had a contingency plan for almost anyone going rogue, including Odo.

Then again, yes, we do have to take into account that good guys must win. Klingons Vs. DS9? Lose. Klingons Vs. Nazi Hirogen for the fate of Voyager? DINGDINGDING!

 

[captcalhoun]

Dax also has an excuse for kicking Klingon ass. she was pals with Kor, Kang and Koloth when she was Curzon and probably got some fight tips, plus WOTW establishes she has her own Klingon fight programme in the holodeck.

 

[Durek]

captcalhoun said:
Dax also has an excuse for kicking Klingon ass. she was pals with Kor, Kang and Koloth when she was Curzon and probably got some fight tips, plus WOTW establishes she has her own Klingon fight programme in the holodeck.

Also Kang knocked Capt. Kirk on his a** with no proper response from Kirk. I don't remember any Klingon doing that to Kirk. This was Kang in his prime. Kang at over 100 kicked a** too.

 

[GrowlingDog]

captcalhoun said:
Dax also has an excuse for kicking Klingon ass. she was pals with Kor, Kang and Koloth when she was Curzon and probably got some fight tips, plus WOTW establishes she has her own Klingon fight programme in the holodeck.

Like i said though, even if Dax was training 2 hours a day, 7 days a week, at 50 kg she just shouldn't have stood a chance. The way i see a fight of human verses Klingon is something like this. Human throws everything he/she has at Klingon, Klingon blocks, deflects and evades all attacks with ease then laughs at human. Then with lightning speed lunges forward and Bang, human is knocked out by palm strike to nose that he/she didnt even see coming. Think 100kg Bruce Lee but even faster and then your getting close to what a Klingon warrior would be like. A lot of the Klingon/human fight scenes would have been far more realistic and enjoyable to me if the Klingons attck was shown in slow motion, then at normal speed to show just how fast they were. This would have really made them seem like formidable fighters. Instead, we had far too many humans take out Klingons with relative ease and the awe one should of had for the Klingons was eroded to nothing.
I believe they also tainted the Borg in this manner and the fear of Borgs ended up being whittled away to nothing. A terrible shame IMO.

 

[greenmystik]

How do we know that Starfleet Academy wasn't training the cadets to learn how to fight Klingons. We know they were entrenched in a cold war for a number of years, so it would reason that they would teach them how to combat Klingon techniques and so forth.

Plus we can't assume that every Klingon warrior we see will be as skilled as the other. The ones we see getting there asses handed to them could be the ones with all bark and no bite. Not everyone can be a Worf or Martok.

Think 100kg Bruce Lee but even faster and then your getting close to what a Klingon warrior would be like.

Weight should have nothing to do with it. I have seen smaller guys take out bigger guys before. Remember that Bruce Lee did take on bigger guys in his movies and always came out on top.

 

[GrowlingDog]

greenmystik said:
How do we know that Starfleet Academy wasn't training the cadets to learn how to fight Klingons. We know they were entrenched in a cold war for a number of years, so it would reason that they would teach them how to combat Klingon techniques and so forth.

Plus we can't assume that every Klingon warrior we see will be as skilled as the other. The ones we see getting there asses handed to them could be the ones with all bark and no bite. Not everyone can be a Worf or Martok.

Think 100kg Bruce Lee but even faster and then your getting close to what a Klingon warrior would be like.

Weight should have nothing to do with it. I have seen smaller guys take out bigger guys before. Remember that Bruce Lee did take on bigger guys in his movies and always came out on top.

I hate to break it to you but size and weight give you a great advantage in hand to hand combat. Bruce Lee and other smaller fighters will only win if they are faster and more experienced than a bigger guy. This isn't a theory, it's a fact. I have sparred world champions lighter/heavier than me and the lighter fighters just didn't have enough power to make any real impact although their speed was something else. Males have denser muscle structure than females and therefore can generate greater speed and power. A 50kg female fighting a 50kg male with the same experience just wouldn't be fast or strong enough for the guy. Could it happen, sure but if you were a betting man, you would be crazy to bet on the female. This is not sexist, it just is.
The notion that the Klingons being beaten may have not been trained or have been that good is like saying that the Black Belts that she beat may have not been that good at fighting. Klingons train in combat as a way of life, not as an extra curricular activity. The chances that Dax happened to come across FIVE of them that were no good at fighting could only MAYBE work if they had been on a blinder for 3 days and were still incredibly drunk on blood wine. Now that i might believe.

 

[greenmystik]

But you're still going with the notion that EVERY Klingon is going to be bred for combat. And we're talking about a very populated species. I can believe that out of the BILLIONS of Klingons, there might be some slackers. We know that not every Klingon believes in honor (Durass) and that some are not as experienced as others.

As for the female thing, yes it is a bit ridiculous that Dax could have taken out five Klingons, but whose to say that she was less experienced a fighter. She has hundreds of years of experience at her fingertips, not to mention the fact that Curzon practically adopted the Klingon way of life and was greatly respected by them. They could have taught Curzon many martial arts and those would have been passed down to Jadzia. Why couldn't she just have had more experience than those particular Klingons?

Here's another thought. Maybe humans are the only was to outlaw steroids. Dax could have been juicing and we could be none the wiser. We all know they like to keep there secrets.

 

[Deimos Anomaly]

But you're still going with the notion that EVERY Klingon is going to be bred for combat. And we're talking about a very populated species. I can believe that out of the BILLIONS of Klingons, there might be some slackers. We know that not every Klingon believes in honor (Durass) and that some are not as experienced as others.

As for the female thing, yes it is a bit ridiculous that Dax could have taken out five Klingons, but whose to say that she was less experienced a fighter. She has hundreds of years of experience at her fingertips, not to mention the fact that Curzon practically adopted the Klingon way of life and was greatly respected by them. They could have taught Curzon many martial arts and those would have been passed down to Jadzia. Why couldn't she just have had more experience than those particular Klingons?

Here's another thought. Maybe humans are the only was to outlaw steroids. Dax could have been juicing and we could be none the wiser. We all know they like to keep there secrets.

If Dax was juicing it would be obvious. Women who do that tend to look rather... masculine after a while.

 

[greenmystik]

But this is the 24th century we're talking about. I'm sure they've made advances. The Trill are nothing if not wise.

 

[Deks]

Well the obvious reason would be ... brace yourselves ... DRAMA EFFECT !

The writers messed up numerous things on the show for one thing so this isn't the first time.

However ... if you are looking for a credible in-universe explanation ...
then it's possible that Klingons simply underestimated the Federation.
I mean, realistically speaking SF isn't stupid, and you would think that it would be able to train it's people adequately so they can hold their ground.
They also have to train on a regular basis so their fighting/survival skills do not dwindle over time.

Having an injured Kira take down several Klingons ... that was just bad writing.
On the other hand, the Feds did have the advantage because of hand-phasers while Klingons relied on hand to hand combat primarily.

The Feds and the Klingons were allies for over 80 years (not including the temporary cease of the alliance on DS9) ... so it's possible that the Feds would try to get to know their previous enemies as much as possible, and even in Kirks time, the Feds were able to deal with the Klingons very effectively.

 

[Timo]

Just to be sure... Where do we hear that Klingons would have superior fighting skills, or more intensive training, or greater innate strength?

They have a warrior culture, yeah. But that's a culture where Klingon fights Klingon, generally for ritualistic purposes. Such warrior cultures have not fared particularly well in the history of Earth when encountering a more multifaceted culture that can outmobilize, outgun and outthink the conservative warriors. Indeed, a warrior culture typically emerges when the warrior class is idled by lack of action against outside enemies, and thus somewhat paradoxally indicates a culture out of fighting practice. Klingons would seem a prime example of such a disadvantaged culture - especially after their humiliation in the TOS movie era and their subsequent decades of decadent alliance with the Federation. Just look at their fatso of a leader from that era!

OTOH, we have never been given the impression that Klingons as a species would possess great bodily strength. No Klingon has done much in the way of grabbing his opponent and doing show-off wrestling moves (like Khan does to Chekov in ST2) - their way of fighting or posturing has to do with the brandinshing of superior or at least fearsome-looking weapons. A couple of times, when Worf aboard the E-D fails to budge a jammed door, he steps aside and Riker does the job for him. So a 100 kg Klingon wouldn't be advantaged over a 100 kg human as such, and might well be disadvantaged against other humanoid aliens, some of which do have superior musculature (Vulcans are a known example, but e.g. Trills might be an unknown one).

This is the basis from which we could further debate the silly DS9 fights where a slim female armed with fists and dressed in pajamas defeats multiple burly men armed with long-reaching bladed weapons and donning body armor. The Klingons would enjoy many advantages there, but not as many as one might think.

For that debate, I might suggest that Gowron in "Way of the Warrior" sent in his least capable troops in a futile attempt at taking control of DS9. His primary purpose with the whole campaign might have been to prune out the unfit and the dissident that dragged down his Empire, and to paint himself as a great leader for the survivors. Sending in the lazy and the cowardly to die, or else have them refuse and fall in disgrace, would be a good start. And emoting over their "great sacrifice" would earn Gowron further political points.

After all, it's not as if it would have been all that important for Gowron to capture the station. He already had plenty of evidence to present to the outside universe that his cause was just, that DS9 had been coopted by the Dominion. After the futile boarding action, he could proceed to pound the station to bits, which may have been his original plan (before he found out that the station's defenses had been upgraded). Why bring in so many ships if the assumption was that the station was the same wussy thing that had nearly succumbed to three outdated Galor weaklings? If the purpose was just to disarm, then a couple of Vor'Chas should have sufficed...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MadBaggins]

The one that sticks out in my mind is a certain DS9 ep in which one Kira Nerys, a skinny, female, heavily pregnant Bajoran, in short order hammered four or five of the Empire's Finest in hth combat, and made it look embarrassingly easy.

NEVER HAPPENED.