Kira and Dukat

[DS9 Gal AZ]

I believe the writers were actually pushing for Kira to have some sort of romantic involvement with Dukat at one point, but Nana Visitor was adamantly against it, and she won the argument (which led to the writers putting in Dukat's affair with her mother).

From what I've seen and read, some people regret that and think to Nana/Marc had a great chemistry that was wasted. While I agree that the actors had great chemistry, I have to applaud Nana for sticking to her guns. Dukat, for all his charm and even in his best, non-crazy moments, was basically to the Bajorans what Hitler was the Jews, and for Kira to get involved with him romantically on any level would be completely OOC and a betrayal of her character.

My question is, how many of you agree with that, and how many of you wanted to see them paired romantically? I'm talking before Dukat went all crazy, of course.

For my part, I'm against the pairing, but if they wanted to capitalize on the chemistry between the two, there are a couple of ways to do that without compromising Kira's character integrity:

1.) Have MirrorKira involved with MirrorDukat. Heck, you could even make Dukat a "good guy" in the MU if you wanted.
2.) Have MirrorKira get involved with regular Dukat. That would be deliciously twisted.

Thoughts, comments?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

MirrorKira with canon Dukat...I can see that.

I also saw a very poignant story someone wrote of Kira's encounter with an MU Dukat who is a good guy. Unfortunately for both of them the result was a lot of anguish (Dukat had his own hangups in that universe), but it still had a very different feeling than any Kira-Dukat encounter we ever see in the canon universe.

I wish I could take credit for this one, but I can't.

http://astele.co.uk/trek/stories/ariana/other.txt

I agree, though, that a canon Dukat and Kira are an absolutely REPUGNANT combination on every level.

 

[TerokNor]

I also agree, that Dukat and Kira in a romantic relationship would be a terrible thought. It would destroy Kiras character.

Working with the Mirror Universe... not really care. Sure would have worked I guess.

I have read somewhere online (was some interview with one of the actors)...that he said, that the writers were thinking about, with whom to pair up Kira and that they also looked at the fans, what they wanted and many were for Odo and Kira, I think they were also against Kira and Dukat, but surprisingly there were quite a lot who wanted to see Kira get romantically involved with Damar. What would you have thought of that?

TerokNor

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

MirrorKira with canon Dukat...I can see that.

I also saw a very poignant story someone wrote of Kira's encounter with an MU Dukat who is a good guy. Unfortunately for both of them the result was a lot of anguish (Dukat had his own hangups in that universe), but it still had a very different feeling than any Kira-Dukat encounter we ever see in the canon universe.

I wish I could take credit for this one, but I can't.

http://astele.co.uk/trek/stories/ariana/other.txt

I agree, though, that a canon Dukat and Kira are an absolutely REPUGNANT combination on every level.

Thanks for the link, that was a great story. I could also see Kira (possibly) getting involved romantically with a MirrorDukat (assuming he was unattached) who was a 'good guy.' But yes, cannon Dukat and Kira? Blech.

 

[Anwar]

That's like saying a Jewish Holocaust survivor would want to fall in love with Hitler, with Hitler being a guy who knew her personally while she was in the camps.

Exaggerated, yes. But the intent is clear.

 

[DevilEyes]

I believe the writers were actually pushing for Kira to have some sort of romantic involvement with Dukat at one point, but Nana Visitor was adamantly against it, and she won the argument (which led to the writers putting in Dukat's affair with her mother).

From what I've seen and read, some people regret that and think to Nana/Marc had a great chemistry that was wasted. While I agree that the actors had great chemistry, I have to applaud Nana for sticking to her guns. Dukat, for all his charm and even in his best, non-crazy moments, was basically to the Bajorans what Hitler was the Jews, and for Kira to get involved with him romantically on any level would be completely OOC and a betrayal of her character.

My question is, how many of you agree with that, and how many of you wanted to see them paired romantically? I'm talking before Dukat went all crazy, of course.

For my part, I'm against the pairing, but if they wanted to capitalize on the chemistry between the two, there are a couple of ways to do that without compromising Kira's character integrity:

1.) Have MirrorKira involved with MirrorDukat. Heck, you could even make Dukat a "good guy" in the MU if you wanted.
2.) Have MirrorKira get involved with regular Dukat. That would be deliciously twisted.

Thoughts, comments?

I think that the actors had great chemistry, and the characters had a very interesting, complex and deliciously twisted relationship. I would've enjoyed seeing more of it on the show, and would have liked to see Kira somehow play a role in Dukat's ending. But I certainly can't see an actual romance developing between them, and I think it would have been a very bad idea. Kira could never forgive Dukat, and he didn't give her any reasons to, since he never showed any signs of regretting his actions or genuinely changing. She would be horrified by the very idea, it would be like betraying everything she had ever believed in and fought all her life for. Besides, even if she were willing, I don't see Dukat as capable of having an equal relationship with anyone, let alone a Bajoran... And I think he actually hated her as much as she hated him. His obsession with her may have been based partly on genuine respect for her strength and determination, respect for as, as he saw it, fellow soldier/fighter (in some perverse way, he seemed to really admire the Bajoran Resistance for having shown themselves able to defeat the Cardassioans), but a lot of it was, IMO, a kind of bizarre desire to conquer, win over someone that he saw as a symbol of Bajoran resistance. Even if she were willing to have some sort of relationship with him, I think he would never be satisfied until she shared into his delusions and was willing to absolve him for all his crimes - and she, of course, would never be able to do that. I could rather see them killing each other than being a romantic couple.

Mirror versions, alternate versions, etc.? Yes, I could see that.

In fact, I don't know if you read official Trek literature, there is an alternate universe novella where the AU versions of Kira and Dukat are in romantic relationship - but that version of Dukat is very different from canon Dukat.

I also agree, that Dukat and Kira in a romantic relationship would be a terrible thought. It would destroy Kiras character.

Working with the Mirror Universe... not really care. Sure would have worked I guess.

I have read somewhere online (was some interview with one of the actors)...that he said, that the writers were thinking about, with whom to pair up Kira and that they also looked at the fans, what they wanted and many were for Odo and Kira, I think they were also against Kira and Dukat, but surprisingly there were quite a lot who wanted to see Kira get romantically involved with Damar. What would you have thought of that?

You've remembered it wrong. This is the quote that you're probably referring to, from a Rene Auberjonois interview:

According to producer Ron Moore's posts on America Online, the fans played a significant role in the development of Odo in the final seasons, first protesting when the changeling was turned into a human being, then lobbying to pair Kira and Odo as a romantic couple after years of indications that Odo was in love with the first officer.
"There was a huge lobby for Kira and Bareil, and Kira and Dukat, and even Kira and Damar," Auberjonois laughs. "People get passionate. (...)

Kira/Dukat as a pairing was always very popular with a portion of DS9 fanbase, particularly during the show, judging by the amount of K/Du fanfiction written during the show. I think that, as far as Kira pairings go, only Kira/Odo is more popular with fanfic writers. A lot of can be still found online - for instance, that webpage that you linked to on Fanfiction forum with 'older Cardie fanfiction' was full of old K/Du fanfics. The majority of them was written by women, and most of those fanfics (with a few exceptions) amount to a combination of Harlequin romance and NC-17-rated sexual fantasies. From what I've seen on many places online, quite a few fans didn't quite understand that having a crush on Marc Alaimo and finding Dukat as portrayed by him sexy does not have to equal thinking that Dukat is a great guy. Television Tropes website have a term for such a phenomenon. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DracoInLeatherPants

There are some Kira/Damar fanfics, but not that many compared to Kira/Dukat. I've only seen one or two.

That's like saying a Jewish Holocaust survivor would want to fall in love with Hitler, with Hitler being a guy who knew her personally while she was in the camps.

Exaggerated, yes. But the intent is clear.

Replace "Hitler" in your example with "concentration camp guard who tormented her", and you have the theme of a very famous and controversial 1970s film.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Night_Porter

But that was a different kind of situation with different characters. DS9 did its own Stockholm Syndrome-driven dynamic with Kira's mom - but Kira was a different and much stronger character and it wouldn't have worked for her.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Mirror versions, alternate versions, etc.? Yes, I could see that.

In fact, I don't know if you read official Trek literature, there is an alternate universe novella where the AU versions of Kira and Dukat are in romantic relationship - but that version of Dukat is very different from canon Dukat.

I...actually bought that whole book just because I was flipping through in the bookstore and saw that!!! While there were other details of that particular story I didn't really like so much, I definitely liked that version of Dukat.

Spoiler: Myriad Universes

And I just about cried when he died.

Since it was an AU it was believable, but I NEVER would've accepted that in the canon universe, not at all.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

1.) Have MirrorKira involved with MirrorDukat. Heck, you could even make Dukat a "good guy" in the MU if you wanted.

That's the only way this idea would have worked.

 

[DevilEyes]

1.) Have MirrorKira involved with MirrorDukat. Heck, you could even make Dukat a "good guy" in the MU if you wanted.

That's the only way this idea would have worked.

I assume you mean either the first suggestion (Mirror Kira and an evil Mirror Dukat, or the second (good guy Mirror Dukat, but with prime universe Kira), since they're mutually exclusive - if Mirror Dukat were a good guy, why would he want to get involved with Intendant Kira... unless he's forced to, as in some of the MU fanfics.

 

[Anwar]

It's a perfect mirror for Dukat then, to be forced as the pleasure servant for the Bajoran Prefect.

I mean, not as a punishment but as a role-reversal/irony type thing for the characters to see someone who is that version of Dukat to have to endure.

 

[flemm]

I think that the actors had great chemistry, and the characters had a very interesting, complex and deliciously twisted relationship. I would've enjoyed seeing more of it on the show, and would have liked to see Kira somehow play a role in Dukat's ending. But I certainly can't see an actual romance developing between them, and I think it would have been a very bad idea.

Kira/Dukat is an odd case. This relationship is extremely important to the show in that it becomes a microcosm of the tension and complex history between the Bajorans and Cardassians. It is the focus of quite a few individual episodes and plays a big role in the Occupation Arc. There is an undeniable kinship that links the two characters even though it can never erase their differences. Romance of course would have been a terrible mistake (thank you, Nana Visitor).

In spite all of that, or perhaps because of it, this is one of those relationships that DS9 was never really able to fully explore in a satisfying manner. Part of that is the fact that there is so much to be said: so many different emotions, so much history, so many crimes, so many tough moral questions. Dukat has plenty of blood on his hands, but Kira isn't exactly a sweetheart herself. Both characters have a ruthless side.

There were other barriers, though, I think, to this relationship being fully fleshed out. One is what I see as a shallow treatment of Dukat's character in the middle seasons. This was a big opportunity to dig into the complexity of this relationship because Dukat was not openly antagonistic at this stage. What we have is ok, but it should have been better. The writers should have taken a hard look at what makes this relationship complex, instead of running from it in order to exonerate Dukat of his past crimes in a shallow and unsatisfying manner. (Of course, they do an about-face on this later, but by then the moment had passed.)

Then there is the additional barrier of the rather artificial transformation of Dukat into a rival Emissary in the later seasons. Some of this makes sense for a variety of reasons discussed in other threads recently, but the bottom line is: Dukat has a more interesting and complex relationship with Kira than with Sisko. So by forcing the character into a one-on-one combat with the show's Captain, the writers again ran from the more interesting possibilities, which would probably have involved Sisko, but certainly Kira as well. There some excellent moments in Covenant that provide a glimpse of how much better the climax of the Pagh Wraith storyline might have been.

Here again, the writers should have listened to the the actress, who of course wanted to have a hand in sealing Dukat's fate in the finale. Actually, I think I remember reading that she wanted to be the one to kill him (LoL!), which might perhaps have been a tad over-indulgent, but anyway Sisko and Kira should have both been involved, with an assist from the rest of the crew, who of course had plenty of reasons to want a piece of Dukat by that time as well, especially Worf.

 

[indolover]

Dukat embodies the horrors of the Occupation, which as a no-brainer is why Kira despised him.

I agree Dukat essentially was a Cardassian Hitler, so a relationship was out of the question.

 

[Sadara]

I don't like the Kira/Dukat angle for similar reasons that Visitor was against it. I like Kira/Damar if we're talking about a Kira/Cardassian pairing, but because of Ziyal that may still be a stretch. That said, if they could work out the Ziyal conflict, I think they had great chemistry after they'd developed a good working relationship in season 7.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

And if you DO want a Kira-Cardassian relationship...though NOT a romantic one...Kira WAS given a Cardassian "father" in Tekeny Ghemor. She almost blew that relationship, but in the end was able to stay with him and laid him to rest in a place of honor. THAT relationship made sense, because Tekeny was pretty much race-blind. He didn't buy into the attitudes that so many Cardassians did, that led to the Occupation. In fact, his experience as a young man on Bajor horrified him.

 

[Sadara]

I also agree, that Dukat and Kira in a romantic relationship would be a terrible thought. It would destroy Kiras character.

Working with the Mirror Universe... not really care. Sure would have worked I guess.

I have read somewhere online (was some interview with one of the actors)...that he said, that the writers were thinking about, with whom to pair up Kira and that they also looked at the fans, what they wanted and many were for Odo and Kira, I think they were also against Kira and Dukat, but surprisingly there were quite a lot who wanted to see Kira get romantically involved with Damar. What would you have thought of that?

TerokNor

I think Kira/Damar would be an awesome pairing, but that is just me. I do think the Ziyal murder would be a difficult obstacle for them, but Damar did change and become a better man, one that if Kira could see past his species, could respect, admire, and even love. I think if Damar had been left alive, that would have been an interesting angle to explore in the wake of Odo's leaving.

 

[Saga]

i was always afraid they were going to make them a couple. especially when Dukat took over the BoP and went rogue. i saw that as the beginning of his redemption and figured that a romance with Kira would follow. glad that never happened. as previously stated in this thread, it would have taken away from Kira.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Dukat would have had to FULLY repent for his sins to become worthy of Kira. And honestly, a Dukat who was truly repentant, who was THAT broken in the face of what he had done and who truly understood how horrible it had all been would probably be the LAST person to feel interested in romance in any fashion and especially not with a member of the people he so horribly wronged--that would only even be remotely possible after a long healing process. And there's no telling if a truly repentant Gul Dukat would even live long enough for that to happen.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Nerys Ghemor echoes my thoughts here.

 

[DevilEyes]

I think that the actors had great chemistry, and the characters had a very interesting, complex and deliciously twisted relationship. I would've enjoyed seeing more of it on the show, and would have liked to see Kira somehow play a role in Dukat's ending. But I certainly can't see an actual romance developing between them, and I think it would have been a very bad idea.

Kira/Dukat is an odd case. This relationship is extremely important to the show in that it becomes a microcosm of the tension and complex history between the Bajorans and Cardassians. It is the focus of quite a few individual episodes and plays a big role in the Occupation Arc. There is an undeniable kinship that links the two characters even though it can never erase their differences. Romance of course would have been a terrible mistake (thank you, Nana Visitor).

In spite all of that, or perhaps because of it, this is one of those relationships that DS9 was never really able to fully explore in a satisfying manner. Part of that is the fact that there is so much to be said: so many different emotions, so much history, so many crimes, so many tough moral questions. Dukat has plenty of blood on his hands, but Kira isn't exactly a sweetheart herself. Both characters have a ruthless side.

There were other barriers, though, I think, to this relationship being fully fleshed out. One is what I see as a shallow treatment of Dukat's character in the middle seasons. This was a big opportunity to dig into the complexity of this relationship because Dukat was not openly antagonistic at this stage. What we have is ok, but it should have been better. The writers should have taken a hard look at what makes this relationship complex, instead of running from it in order to exonerate Dukat of his past crimes in a shallow and unsatisfying manner. (Of course, they do an about-face on this later, but by then the moment had passed.)

Then there is the additional barrier of the rather artificial transformation of Dukat into a rival Emissary in the later seasons. Some of this makes sense for a variety of reasons discussed in other threads recently, but the bottom line is: Dukat has a more interesting and complex relationship with Kira than with Sisko. So by forcing the character into a one-on-one combat with the show's Captain, the writers again ran from the more interesting possibilities, which would probably have involved Sisko, but certainly Kira as well. There some excellent moments in Covenant that provide a glimpse of how much better the climax of the Pagh Wraith storyline might have been.

Here again, the writers should have listened to the the actress, who of course wanted to have a hand in sealing Dukat's fate in the finale. Actually, I think I remember reading that she wanted to be the one to kill him (LoL!), which might perhaps have been a tad over-indulgent, but anyway Sisko and Kira should have both been involved, with an assist from the rest of the crew, who of course had plenty of reasons to want a piece of Dukat by that time as well, especially Worf.

You hit the nail on the head. This (the bolded parts) is what makes the relationship between those two characters so interesting. It has a lot more layers and depth than "Kira vs a Cardassian". The strange bond between Kira and Dukat is not one of friendship or potential romance but neither is it a simple antagonistic relationship. At the heart of this is the relationship between Cardassia and Bajor: Bajorans were victimized, but in order to fight back, they had to become as ruthless as their oppressors. I've often felt that Dukat can be seen as Kira's dark side, and that he was able to get under her skin the way nobody else could because he was always able to reawaken all Kira's demons, the web of issues and emotions that she never properly dealt with - the hatred and pain and guilt over all violence of her past, violence that she had had done against her and seen done against others, and the violence she had done to others.

And speaking of whitewashing, the show has occasionally (only occasionally) dealt with the full implications of Kira's role as a terrorist, but many fans seem to completely brush aside that aspect of the character, treating her as nothing but a righteous victim (take for example, comments on this forum comparing Dukat and Kira to Hitler and a Jewish Holocaust survivor; very inaccurate, and missing the point). Kira/Dukat pairing had a great potential that was never fully explored on the show; to use it completely, the show would have had to go deeper and darker in more thoroughly exploring the psychology of the Cardassian occupiers and war criminals, as well as Bajoran terrorists.

 

[flemm]

The strange bond between Kira and Dukat is not one of friendship or potential romance but neither is it a simple antagonistic relationship.

I think this is a great way of putting it, and identifies one of the things that makes the relationship so difficult to classify: there is a deep connection between these characters that is partly antagonistic, and partly sympathetic, but very hard to sum up with the any of the usual labels that we use to describe how two people relate to one another. Even a "love-hate relationship" doesn't really work. At best it might describe Dukat's feelings toward Kira (though even there I don't think it's really accurate), but any way definitely not the other way around.

And speaking of whitewashing, the show has occasionally (only occasionally) dealt with the full implications of Kira's role as a terrorist, but many fans seem to completely brush aside that aspect of the character, treating her as nothing but a righteous victim (take for example, comments on this forum comparing Dukat and Kira to Hitler and a Jewish Holocaust survivor; very inaccurate, and missing the point). Kira/Dukat pairing had a great potential that was never fully explored on the show; to use it completely, the show would have had to go deeper and darker in more thoroughly exploring the psychology of the Cardassian occupiers and war criminals, as well as Bajoran terrorists.

This is why I like episodes such as The Darkness and the Light and the original Crossover so much. They provide a glimpse into the more Dukat-ian side of Kira's nature, while episodes such as Return to Grace and Covenant provide glimpes of the more Kira-esque side of Dukat.

Perhaps the reality is their relationship can never be dealt with except as a series of fragments, since it can never really be fulfilled the way, for example, Kira and Odo's relationship (also complex and multi-faceted, and also anchored in the turmoil of the Occupation) can be fulfilled in Chimera, which is about love, but not only love.

It's worth quoting Michelle Erica Green (the TrekNation reviewer) on the subject of Chimera, because I think she very accurately grasps what makes that episode so significant:

Odo does learn about physical transformation in "Chimera," but not on any base, bodily level. What he learns is that bodies don't matter; what matters is higher love, passion of the soul and the things people will do to accomodate it. It makes me weep, and I don't mean that just in a sappy love story sense - it's extraordinarily profound and beautiful, like the myth of Cupid and Psyche. Have I neglected to mention the powerful, subtle performances of Visitor and Auberjonois? The relationship between Kira and Odo exemplifies triumph over adversity, common ground over alien difference, future over past, Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations. It's pure Star Trek in every best possible way.

I find Dukat's "Goodbye, Nerys" in Covenant to be rather poignant because there is a sense that there is so much left to say that will never be said, going all the way back to Necessary Evil, when we see Dukat, Kira and Odo together on Terok Nor for the first time.

And again in Call to Arms, as Dukat says (to Odo): "You, me, the Major... together again."

Unlike Kira and Odo, Dukat is never able to transcend his troubled past and make something new of himself. But, as Ron Moore states in that interview you quoted recently, we get the sense that he could have, or might have. And that is sad.