Janeway in Season 5

[tomalak301]

I've been going through Season 5 a lot this week and made it up to Latent Image tonight but one thing I've been noticing a lot lately was Janeway's characterization. Did it strike anyone else as odd how inconsistant she was, at least so far this season. I mean she starts out by hiding in her quarters at the worst possible time, treats Paris like crap for breaking the prime directive, and then the very next episode, she does that very thing in order to help the telepaths. I still like her as a character and thought she was a strong captain, but what is up with her this season. It's actually interesting watching these episodes so quickly to see her develop as the season goes on and wonder what the writers were doing.

 

[crouteru]

Unfortunately, this was a problem with Janeway in the latter years of the series. Her behaviour seemed to change depending on the situation at the time. Personally, I kind of liked her wild mood swings. It may be her way of dealing with their situation.

 

[Guy Gardener]

That would only be true if Voyager was written by one person or a small group of staff writers.

None of the other dozens of writers knew what was in the other scripts from beginning to end, but it was the job of the producers to blend everything together cohesively.

Who were the Producers again?

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Just one word: Equinox.

"Captain Ransom has violated and dishonored the most fundamental principles of Starfleet, so he has to be stopped at all costs... even if it means that we have to torture or murder one of his crewmembers!!!"

It were episodes like this which made me wish that Chakotay had been in command sometimes. And something like this never occurred to me while watching the other Trek series... I've never asked myself "why can't Riker/Kira be the Captain/Commander???".

 

[KayArr]

I actually kind of like how she hardened a bit--it seemed natural after getting a dear john letter and the stresses of dealing with the Delta Quadrent. I know that Endgame is the ep that shall not be named for some, but I like to think that getting home early kept her from hardening over completely into that future version of herself--I think she got home and healed.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

The inconsistencies of all the characters throughout the series has always been a major issue. I think Janeway's is most noticeable because she's the captain. But, if Chakotay is a vegetarian, why did he just eat that pot roast?

To cover for the writer's bad choices, I've decided that Janeway's erratic behaviour is caused by her complete isolation on the ship from any real human contact compounded with the unending stress she feels at trying to get her crew home while trying to not fall completely into the same inhumane ways of the Equinox.

I think that kind of stress is bound to make anyone a little on the crazy side. Fortunately for me, that's just how I like my women.

 

[kimc]

Just one word: Equinox.

"Captain Ransom has violated and dishonored the most fundamental principles of Starfleet, so he has to be stopped at all costs... even if it means that we have to torture or murder one of his crewmembers!!!"

It were episodes like this which made me wish that Chakotay had been in command sometimes. And something like this never occurred to me while watching the other Trek series... I've never asked myself "why can't Riker/Kira be the Captain/Commander???".

Yes, that poor Noah Lessing in Equinox! He and his crewmates were committing genocide and had left the Voyager crew to die at the hands of the aliens they were killing. Gee, can't a murderer catch a break?

Yes, Janeway got royally pissed in that episode but in my opinion she had every right to be. I compare her behavior in this episode to Kirk's in Obsession where both captains allowed their anger and desire for revenge to get the better of them for a while. Both Kirk and Janeway eventually snapped back though mainly because they had people around them who wouldn't let them dive completely off the deep end.

 

[kimc]

That would only be true if Voyager was written by one person or a small group of staff writers.

None of the other dozens of writers knew what was in the other scripts from beginning to end, but it was the job of the producers to blend everything together cohesively.

Who were the Producers again?

B&B strike again!

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Just one word: Equinox.

"Captain Ransom has violated and dishonored the most fundamental principles of Starfleet, so he has to be stopped at all costs... even if it means that we have to torture or murder one of his crewmembers!!!"

It were episodes like this which made me wish that Chakotay had been in command sometimes. And something like this never occurred to me while watching the other Trek series... I've never asked myself "why can't Riker/Kira be the Captain/Commander???".

Yes, that poor Noah Lessing in Equinox! He and his crewmates were committing genocide and had left the Voyager crew to die at the hands of the aliens they were killing. Gee, can't a murderer catch a break?

Yes, Janeway got royally pissed in that episode but in my opinion she had every right to be. I compare her behavior in this episode to Kirk's in Obsession where both captains allowed their anger and desire for revenge to get the better of them for a while. Both Kirk and Janeway eventually snapped back though mainly because they had people around them who wouldn't let them dive completely off the deep end.

That's not the point... it's not so much about morality, it's more about consistency.

In "Equinox, Part 1" there's a confrontation between Janeway and Ransom in which the latter tries to justify his actions by explanining that half of his crew had been killed and that the remaining half hadn't eaten in over a week when they started to kill the aliens. However, Janeway insists that a Starfleet officer has to adhere to Starfleet regulations no matter the circumstances and that there are no exceptions to this rule. Period.

In "Equinox, Part 2" Janeway suddenly starts to break Starfleet regulations herself by seemingly instituting a "Two wrongs make a right" policy. So, a Starfleet officer has to adhere to Starfleet regulations no matter the circumstances... except when a fellow Starfleet captain has pissed you off by killing innocent aliens and attacking your ship.

This at least made Janeway look like a hypocrite.

 

[Smiley]

In the String Theory novel trilogy, an explanation for post-Season 4 Janeway inconsistency is proposed. It's a love or hate explanation around this board, but you may want to check it out for yourself.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It wasn't the torture that got me, Noah got his own back by peeing in her food twice a week until they got home, o, and destroying the twelve colonies, what really had me thinking Janeway was loopy was that horribly thick Ahab metaphor where Equinox dives into the atmosphere of a planet and despite Tom saying it will frack Voyager up, they follow for absolutely no reason when they could have just bombarded the bugger from a high altitude and tracked it's movements from safety...

And fuck it, they were lemmings. Their body count would have been nonexistent after the first couple kills when they did the math and realized that these humans were unstoppable killing machines, if they had just chosen to let bygones be bygones and stop streaming out of their portals with revenge on their mind. Sentient maybe? Stupid, yes.

It wasn't genocide. It was barely mass murder. Which are completely different crimes, and they were justifying what they were doing by assuming that they were insentient animals so it was only hunting or sport and not murder at all.

Would people still hunt bears if someone gave every bear a machine gun before the hunt started too?

 

[JanineSal]

I've been going through Season 5 a lot this week and made it up to Latent Image tonight but one thing I've been noticing a lot lately was Janeway's characterization. Did it strike anyone else as odd how inconsistant she was, at least so far this season. I mean she starts out by hiding in her quarters at the worst possible time, treats Paris like crap for breaking the prime directive, and then the very next episode, she does that very thing in order to help the telepaths. I still like her as a character and thought she was a strong captain, but what is up with her this season. It's actually interesting watching these episodes so quickly to see her develop as the season goes on and wonder what the writers were doing.

She was still in the midst of her depression. It was pretty obvious to me.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Depression? No, she was an action junkie with no junk if you're talking about Night. The Doctor should have stripped her of rank if she was clinically depressed. Tuvok made it clear in the omega Directive that her singular purposefulness to the point of suicide was a defining aspect in her character quite noticeable from well before Caretaker.

How the hell did this woman become a Captain?

 

[kimc]

Just one word: Equinox.

"Captain Ransom has violated and dishonored the most fundamental principles of Starfleet, so he has to be stopped at all costs... even if it means that we have to torture or murder one of his crewmembers!!!"

It were episodes like this which made me wish that Chakotay had been in command sometimes. And something like this never occurred to me while watching the other Trek series... I've never asked myself "why can't Riker/Kira be the Captain/Commander???".

Yes, that poor Noah Lessing in Equinox! He and his crewmates were committing genocide and had left the Voyager crew to die at the hands of the aliens they were killing. Gee, can't a murderer catch a break?

Yes, Janeway got royally pissed in that episode but in my opinion she had every right to be. I compare her behavior in this episode to Kirk's in Obsession where both captains allowed their anger and desire for revenge to get the better of them for a while. Both Kirk and Janeway eventually snapped back though mainly because they had people around them who wouldn't let them dive completely off the deep end.

That's not the point... it's not so much about morality, it's more about consistency.

In "Equinox, Part 1" there's a confrontation between Janeway and Ransom in which the latter tries to justify his actions by explanining that half of his crew had been killed and that the remaining half hadn't eaten in over a week when they started to kill the aliens. However, Janeway insists that a Starfleet officer has to adhere to Starfleet regulations no matter the circumstances and that there are no exceptions to this rule. Period.

In "Equinox, Part 2" Janeway suddenly starts to break Starfleet regulations herself by seemingly instituting a "Two wrongs make a right" policy. So, a Starfleet officer has to adhere to Starfleet regulations no matter the circumstances... except when a fellow Starfleet captain has pissed you off by killing innocent aliens and attacking your ship.

This at least made Janeway look like a hypocrite.

True hypocrites never acknowledge their hypocritical behavior. The ending scene between J & C with the ship's plaque was supposed to be that acknowledgement.

 

[tomalak301]

I've been going through Season 5 a lot this week and made it up to Latent Image tonight but one thing I've been noticing a lot lately was Janeway's characterization. Did it strike anyone else as odd how inconsistant she was, at least so far this season. I mean she starts out by hiding in her quarters at the worst possible time, treats Paris like crap for breaking the prime directive, and then the very next episode, she does that very thing in order to help the telepaths. I still like her as a character and thought she was a strong captain, but what is up with her this season. It's actually interesting watching these episodes so quickly to see her develop as the season goes on and wonder what the writers were doing.

She was still in the midst of her depression. It was pretty obvious to me.

It certainly didn't show, and she shouldn't have taken it out on her crew.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

True hypocrites never acknowledge their hypocritical behavior. The ending scene between J & C with the ship's plaque was supposed to be that acknowledgement.

So, it was the writers' intent to show Janeway as a hypocrite? That didn't really become clear. Could have been "bad writing" just as well. In particular because it was a two-parter and "follow-the-regulations Janeway" does only appear in Part 1, while "who-cares-about-regulations Janeway" only appears in Part 2. The sudden "switch" seems to have happened exactly in-between seasons and considering that Part 2 was perhaps written several months after Part 1...

Even if Janeway was written that way intentionally, it doesn't exactly make me more sympathetic to her character. Mainly because it still seems like erratic and inconsistent behavior. As I said, it even made me wish that Chakotay had been in command. The question is if it is a wise thing to write the Janeway character that way when it could actually make some viewers wish that someone else would have been the lead character of the show.

Besides, the fact that Ransom had to pay for his actions by losing his life (even after he showed remorse), while Janeway's behavior had no consquences for her at all leaves you a bit unsatisfied. Of course, this is the result of the fact that they a) couldn't have the main character killed, b) couldn't have the main character demoted or arrested, c) couldn't make John Savage a main or recurring character on Voyager. But it might also be a sign that they had written themselves into a corner somehow.



In general it seemed as if the events of this episode weren't supposed to have any lasting consequences. Everything had to be "back to normal"... to the point that they could have turned it into a "reset button" time travel episode just as well. But when the captain almost murders a prisoner it should have at least some sort of consequence, be it that Chakotay is still pissed at Janeway in a future episode, because it created a rift between the two that can't be repaired so fast. But they didn't even show the surviving Equinox crewmembers again. They seemed to have become normal members of the Voyager crew after this episode... almost like with the Maquis in Season 1.

All in all, I think that "Equinox, Part 1" was a strong episode with a interesting premise, while "Part 2" fell flat and was a bit disappointing. This often happens with two-parters, but normally I don't mind it so much.

Sorry, that it turned a general "anti-Equinox" rant in the end... but I actually liked the first part of this episode very much and was angry after I watched the conclusion to this story.

 

[kimc]

True hypocrites never acknowledge their hypocritical behavior. The ending scene between J & C with the ship's plaque was supposed to be that acknowledgement.

So, it was the writers' intent to show Janeway as a hypocrite? That didn't really become clear.

You've misunderstood my last post. Everyone behaves contrary to their own beliefs at one point or another. A hypocrite never acknowledges those times.

During "Equinox" Janeway acted contrary to her beliefs. She acknowledged that fact at the end of the episode. That may make her human but it does not make her a hypocrite.

 

[Guy Gardener]

"Do as I say, not do as I do."

Ignorance vs. Selfawareness. Hypocrisy is Hypocrisy.

Janeway abused her own peolpe under her command. That's a different crime to murdering aliens who are powerfully protected by their own people as well as Federation law.

 

[kimc]

"Do as I say, not do as I do."

Ignorance vs. Selfawareness. Hypocrisy is Hypocrisy.

I never said otherwise. A non-hypocrite can display hypocratic behavior become aware of it THEN make a change. A hypocrite may or may not become aware but will never acknowledge their mistakes.

Janeway abused her own peolpe under her command.

Noah Lessing was under Ransom's command and was willing to let Voyager's crew die.

That's a different crime to murdering aliens who are powerfully protected by their own people as well as Federation law.

For beings with all this super protection they sure were dying in a hurry.

 

[Guy Gardener]

"Do as I say, not do as I do."

Ignorance vs. Selfawareness. Hypocrisy is Hypocrisy.

I never said otherwise. A non-hypocrite can display hypocratic behavior become aware of it THEN make a change. A hypocrite may or may not become aware but will never acknowledge their mistakes.

By Jove we're splitting some fine hairs. I think we're muddling Arrogance, presumption and denial together into ancillary appendages for some colossal beast called hypocrisy. I imagine that there must have been a cop some where in America who has been caught speeding, and/or speeding while drunk at least once. I do think that there's a class system aboard Voyager where the royalty can get away carefree for what the plebs get crucified for... I'm watching "Rome" right now. Julius Casar just said:"It's only Hubris if I lose."

These Romans make the Kullah seem like Kelsy Grammar.

Janeway abused her own peolpe under her command.

Noah Lessing was under Ransom's command and was willing to let Voyager's crew die.

Ransom didn't have a "Starfleet" Command as such, if Janeway had the right and power to strip him of rank, which it seems she did, tactical superiority, if she had time to blink, and make sure she was hunting a criminal and not starting a civil war over a difference of administration style, so the Equinox crew were criminals in so far as no court had judged them to be guilty of anything, except of course a court of public opinion...

Janeway was the ranking Starfleet Officer, ever if Ransom hadn't been disgraced, and if she never bothered to get any civilian rank to administer the other needs of her crew (I was screaming about this ten years ago. Now Admiral Kane and President Roselin in Battlestar Galactica just make me weep that I haven't an original idea in me.) other than suppose such duties when necessary without bothering to collect the titles and responsibilities, Ransom was her charge as a subordinate officer and prisoner and so was Lessing before and after their Guilt became self evident and confessed, not that Kathy was in her right mind at that point to do the math to prove her capricious choices before the fact during this adventure.

That's a different crime to murdering aliens who are powerfully protected by their own people as well as Federation law.

For beings with all this super protection they sure were dying in a hurry.

And if there were hundreds of trillions more of those things on the other side of their portals waiting for an opportunity to come through that they would have followed Equinox all the way to federation space and then destroyed as much of the federation that chose to stand beside Humanity, much like the Human Minbarri War.

Magneto said it best "Why do the Brave always die first?"