Is "Hull Plating" like "Ablative Armour" ?
- Thread starter Infern0
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From what i gather, its more like power is applied directly to the hull material making them stronger.
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Polarized_hull_plating
As far as beating an Oberth class ship, im not sure but seeing as how the NX is about 22nd level technology while the Oberth is 23rd, I wouldnt be surprised if the Oberth would win. I dont know about its armaments however.
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Polarized_hull_plating
As far as beating an Oberth class ship, im not sure but seeing as how the NX is about 22nd level technology while the Oberth is 23rd, I wouldnt be surprised if the Oberth would win. I dont know about its armaments however.
Going by terminology, "ablative" armor would have to ablate, that is, chunks of it would blow off in order to diminish the impact of the enemy weapon. We don't see chunks blowing off Archer's armor. Then again, we don't see chunks blowing off the armor of the Defiant, either...
In practice, the two types don't seem to behave too differently, save for one thing: polarizable hull plating in ENT is kept strong by feeding power to it, and after it is pounded down to, say, 40%, it can slowly recover to 100% when more power is fed into it. Ablative armor in DS9 isn't known to require power, nor is it known to recover during or after combat.
Timo Saloniemi
In practice, the two types don't seem to behave too differently, save for one thing: polarizable hull plating in ENT is kept strong by feeding power to it, and after it is pounded down to, say, 40%, it can slowly recover to 100% when more power is fed into it. Ablative armor in DS9 isn't known to require power, nor is it known to recover during or after combat.
Timo Saloniemi
I'm assuming its a primitive forerunner to the ablative armor tech used on 24th century(and later, more futuristic)Federation ships, like future-Admiral Janeway's modified starbase shuttle from the year 2404 in "Endgame(VOY)." Plating that can be electromagnetically "hardened."
Electromagnetically... Or perhaps gravitically?
Gravity control seems to have been mastered by very early Earth engineers already. The magic they can play with indoors artificial gravity in the 1990s might have been improved upon by the 2150s, resulting in external plating that repels stuff at a thousand times the strength by which the decks attract the boots of the crew. Or plating that collapses into something the density of neutronium at the push of a button when "extra gravity" is fed into it, becoming impermeable to pretty much everything.
Timo Saloniemi
Gravity control seems to have been mastered by very early Earth engineers already. The magic they can play with indoors artificial gravity in the 1990s might have been improved upon by the 2150s, resulting in external plating that repels stuff at a thousand times the strength by which the decks attract the boots of the crew. Or plating that collapses into something the density of neutronium at the push of a button when "extra gravity" is fed into it, becoming impermeable to pretty much everything.
Timo Saloniemi
Umm...
You know something the rest of us don't? Artificial gravity in the 1990s?
Are you talking the Trek-verse, having in mind Khan's ship, or are you talking real world stuff here?
Even in the TREK universe the DY-100 class ships of the '90s didn't have artificial gravity. I know they're not technically canon, but in the Greg Cox Eugenics Wars novels the sleeper ships have gravity only while being spun centifugally or while trapped in another ship's gravity well.
But neither of those was happening in the TOS episode, where the ship indeed sported Earthlike gravity, and was clearly built to operate in this manner.
Had the gravity been but a temporary effect brought about by, say, Kirk's tractor beam, then Khan would have been floating around in his cryochamber for most of the journey: there were no restraining belts in evidence. Instead, Khan had a mattress! Also, no handrails or footholds anywhere on the interiors, but plenty of push-buttons which one cannot operate without support in zero gee.
On the same vein, there was artificial gravity aboard the cryogenic satellite of TNG "The Neutral Zone", and this time we had visual evidence that the mothership wasn't even extending any sort of a tractor beam there. And the effect sure wasn't due to the Enterprise's own gravity generators, either, as the cryosat was at an acute angle wrt the starship!
Of course, we have evidence that gravity doesn't leak outside a starship, or else the spacewalk scenes of, say, ST:FC could not take place.
Timo Saloniemi
Had the gravity been but a temporary effect brought about by, say, Kirk's tractor beam, then Khan would have been floating around in his cryochamber for most of the journey: there were no restraining belts in evidence. Instead, Khan had a mattress! Also, no handrails or footholds anywhere on the interiors, but plenty of push-buttons which one cannot operate without support in zero gee.
On the same vein, there was artificial gravity aboard the cryogenic satellite of TNG "The Neutral Zone", and this time we had visual evidence that the mothership wasn't even extending any sort of a tractor beam there. And the effect sure wasn't due to the Enterprise's own gravity generators, either, as the cryosat was at an acute angle wrt the starship!
Of course, we have evidence that gravity doesn't leak outside a starship, or else the spacewalk scenes of, say, ST:FC could not take place.
Timo Saloniemi
I tend to assume the Botany Bay had gravity because she was trapped and locked in the Enterprise's tractor beam. Artificial gravity in a 1990s spacecraft? Unlikely as hell, and the more modern novels don't support this.
For all we know, the Botany Bay crew could have been sleeping on mattresses that had a strong level of adhesive on them, to keep the crew stationary. Hell, they could even be velcro-ed to the beds.
As for the subject of Hull plating/ablative armor, I'm going to say that the polarized plating is just the actual hull plates that have been reinforced somehow, whether it be electromagnetic current, or gravity, while the ablative armor is an additional layer on top of the ship's normal hull plating, which is obvious in the case of Janeway's future shuttle, but probably also true for the Defiant, the only difference being that the armor is already included in the ship ( so that the 'normal' plating isn't visible). The future armor is retractable, something which the Defiant's doesn't look to be. Also, the armor from Janeway's future seems to be used in preferance to shields, while the Defiant's seems to be an extra layer of protection in case the shields fail, not something used insetead of them.
Something I've always wondered was why ships from the TMP and TOS era don't seem to retain polarized plating as a secondary defensive layer. It obviously works, otherwise the NX-01 wouldn't have survived the first season. So, why don't they keep it just in case the shields fail? The hull plating on these ships doesn't seem to be polarized, as once the shields are gone, weapons are free to cut right into the hull ( a la TWOK). Wouldn't it have given the enterprise a few more seconds ( at least) to get the shields up if they had had the option to polarize the hull plating? ( or, perhaps it could be polarized as a default, so that when shields aren't activated, the plating is polarized to protect against stray space debris that the deflector might have missed)
As for the subject of Hull plating/ablative armor, I'm going to say that the polarized plating is just the actual hull plates that have been reinforced somehow, whether it be electromagnetic current, or gravity, while the ablative armor is an additional layer on top of the ship's normal hull plating, which is obvious in the case of Janeway's future shuttle, but probably also true for the Defiant, the only difference being that the armor is already included in the ship ( so that the 'normal' plating isn't visible). The future armor is retractable, something which the Defiant's doesn't look to be. Also, the armor from Janeway's future seems to be used in preferance to shields, while the Defiant's seems to be an extra layer of protection in case the shields fail, not something used insetead of them.
Something I've always wondered was why ships from the TMP and TOS era don't seem to retain polarized plating as a secondary defensive layer. It obviously works, otherwise the NX-01 wouldn't have survived the first season. So, why don't they keep it just in case the shields fail? The hull plating on these ships doesn't seem to be polarized, as once the shields are gone, weapons are free to cut right into the hull ( a la TWOK). Wouldn't it have given the enterprise a few more seconds ( at least) to get the shields up if they had had the option to polarize the hull plating? ( or, perhaps it could be polarized as a default, so that when shields aren't activated, the plating is polarized to protect against stray space debris that the deflector might have missed)
Plecostomus
Commodore
Perhaps the hull is polarized/reinforced as a matter of course during alert situations. Perhaps that is what saved the Enterprise in TWOK from even more serious damage.
By the time of Picard, this technology has evolved into the "structural integrity field" system.
Just an idea.
By the time of Picard, this technology has evolved into the "structural integrity field" system.
Just an idea.
Perhaps, but looking at the NX-01, the plating was able to absorb a fair deal of punishment before battle scars began to show, and the hull began to breach. So, if the Enterprise in TWOK did have polarized plating, and did have the plating charged, Khan's shots should have done minimal damage. This is assuming, however, that A) Kirk's ship did have polarized hull plating, and B) the technology has improved as ships improve and become more powerful, so that the plating of 2285 would be able to handle the weapons of 2285. Putting plating technology from 2151, built to handle weapons from 2151, on a ship from the 2280's would be at least a waste of rescources, at most an exercise in futility.
Although, in another thought tangent, maybe the plating wasn't ( theoretically/hypothetically) included in later designs to protect against weapons fire, but only space debris. I'd imagine that the space debris in 2285 wouldn't be any more powerful than space debris in 2151, so from that sense, the plating would have it's uses.
Although, in another thought tangent, maybe the plating wasn't ( theoretically/hypothetically) included in later designs to protect against weapons fire, but only space debris. I'd imagine that the space debris in 2285 wouldn't be any more powerful than space debris in 2151, so from that sense, the plating would have it's uses.
Plecostomus
Commodore
Khan was firing at point blank range with Starfleet weapons against Starfleet defensive systems. You have to believe that part of the reason so much damage was done due to the overwhelming force and the fact that the shields would be tuned to stop (for example) disruptor blasts and debris impacts not Starfleet phasers.
I like to think that Khan simply overwhelmed the defenses of the Enterprise, whatever they were. That was the whole point of the ambush attack.
I like to think that Khan simply overwhelmed the defenses of the Enterprise, whatever they were. That was the whole point of the ambush attack.
Er...the reason the Reliant's phasers do so much damage when Khan ambushes the Enterprise is because the Enterprise's shields aren't raised. That's why it's an ambush, y'see... Kirk tried to raise shields once Spock announced that Reliant was locking phasers, but too little, too late.
Plecostomus
Commodore
That's what I was getting at with the line "whatever they were."
Some argue that there are different levels of shielding and protection based on alert levels. If you go that route then maybe at Yellow Alert the hull-plates are energized.
*shrug*
Some argue that there are different levels of shielding and protection based on alert levels. If you go that route then maybe at Yellow Alert the hull-plates are energized.
*shrug*
No. The Polarized hull plating creates a magnetic feild that repels the enemy fire.
And I did that from memory.
And I did that from memory.
In TWOK when the ENT went to yellow alert we hear Saavik say "Energize defense fields." A corresponding graphic shows some type of hull reinforcement. At least this why I always assumed the Reliant didn't tear the ENT to shreds.
Actually, a corresponding graphic shows intruder alert going up on deck 5.
No doubt the command "Yellow Alert" is supposed to mark the execution of dozens of procedures. On a training ship, the trainees and instructors feel obligated to voice out many of these separate procedures, while on an operational ship, all of these are performed without separate verbal confirmation.
Saavik here felt the need to specify the energizing of defense fields (perhaps because the trainees were slow to comply with that specific part), but she didn't need to comment on intruder control protocols which the trainees correctly and swiftly put to effect at the same time. That there was an intruder alert on deck 5 might have been a glitch, or perhaps a simulation left running after the last intruder control exercise. Or then some trainee on deck 5 had forgotten to update his or her hall pass.
No matter: a ship in free space, with her defense fields up, proved just as resilient to Khan's fire as the same ship inside a nebula where shields don't work at all. One might assume that defense fields do squat against modern phasers, then - or that defense fields were constantly up in the nebula. And yeah, one might say that defense fields are related to polarizable hull armor somehow, although there is no real proof for a direct treknological connection.
How so? By that time, manned interplanetary travel was old news for our intrepid and innovative Earthlings. Clearly, they were much, much more clever than us. By 2002, they would have been launching interstellar probes, something we won't be doing for the next century if the current trends continue. By 2063, they would invent warp drive, which we probably won't have for the next thousand years, what with it being impossible and all.
It makes no sense to assume that all their superior smartness only came to play "in the future", because we are in the process of catching up with that future now. The 1990s came and went, and we were too stupid to invent the DY-100; there's little reason to try and pretend that this smart Trek reality and our stupid one would somehow merge at some future date, and less reason to think that they were synched during the 20th century.
That's because they are written by cowards.
Timo Saloniemi
No doubt the command "Yellow Alert" is supposed to mark the execution of dozens of procedures. On a training ship, the trainees and instructors feel obligated to voice out many of these separate procedures, while on an operational ship, all of these are performed without separate verbal confirmation.
Saavik here felt the need to specify the energizing of defense fields (perhaps because the trainees were slow to comply with that specific part), but she didn't need to comment on intruder control protocols which the trainees correctly and swiftly put to effect at the same time. That there was an intruder alert on deck 5 might have been a glitch, or perhaps a simulation left running after the last intruder control exercise. Or then some trainee on deck 5 had forgotten to update his or her hall pass.
No matter: a ship in free space, with her defense fields up, proved just as resilient to Khan's fire as the same ship inside a nebula where shields don't work at all. One might assume that defense fields do squat against modern phasers, then - or that defense fields were constantly up in the nebula. And yeah, one might say that defense fields are related to polarizable hull armor somehow, although there is no real proof for a direct treknological connection.
How so? By that time, manned interplanetary travel was old news for our intrepid and innovative Earthlings. Clearly, they were much, much more clever than us. By 2002, they would have been launching interstellar probes, something we won't be doing for the next century if the current trends continue. By 2063, they would invent warp drive, which we probably won't have for the next thousand years, what with it being impossible and all.
It makes no sense to assume that all their superior smartness only came to play "in the future", because we are in the process of catching up with that future now. The 1990s came and went, and we were too stupid to invent the DY-100; there's little reason to try and pretend that this smart Trek reality and our stupid one would somehow merge at some future date, and less reason to think that they were synched during the 20th century.
That's because they are written by cowards.
Timo Saloniemi
