How would you compare the musical scores of John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith?

[KhanSolo]

So I'm not entirely sure if this is the proper place to post this, although I did look through the categories and this seemed like the most logical one to post it in. How would you compare (possibly not the best word to use), but how would you compare the musical styles and scores of John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith, and maybe even James Horner. John Williams is the composer of the Star Wars films, and Goldsmith and Horner scored most of the Star Trek movies. (Goldsmith: TMP,TFF, First Contact, Insurrection, and Nemesis; Horner: TWOK, TSFS, TVH) Really, I'm asking how you'd compare the scores between Star Trek and Star Wars. I love the scores to both film franchises. Star Wars, at least for me, seems more jumpy and action oriented so many of the themes are fast paced. Horner and Goldsmith, in my opinion again, seem to compose more melodic themes that can at times be hoppy, good example being the score "Stealing the Enterprise". Anyways, I'd love to hear some thoughts! Thanks!

 

[Kor]

Horner - nautical/militaristic.
Goldsmith - melodic, contemplative.
Williams - grand, adventurous.

Kor

 

[Admiral2]

John Williams is THE MAN. There is no comparison. Everyone else comes up short.

Jerry Goldsmith is good, but not as creative.

James Horner is best when he's not scoring Trek (Apollo 13 is light-years ahead of TWoK musically).

 

[KhanSolo]

Strictly in comparison to each other, and limiting it to one word each, I'd say Goldsmith and Williams are versatility and power. There's so much much more to it than that, but if you had to narrow it down...

I mean Im all ears, I'd love to hear your opinion in depth!

 

[Random_Spock]

I really love John Williams overall. His music just draws me in. Not just in terms of the Star Wars films either. His work in the film, Hook stood out. I remembered it from the first time I saw the film until this day. I consider a composer to be a good one if their work both stands the test of time and is memorable.

Same goes with James Horner. I remember his work from Titanic and Avatar fondly.

 

[eyeresist]

Williams is the best melodist. No-one else has written as many great movie themes. He's also a great orchestrator (bearing in mind it's mostly a case of supervising rather than doing it himself). He can conjure quite a variety of sounds from the orchestra, but is best known for the rich and sparkling "Williams sound".

Obviously the others are great too, but Williams is outstanding.

 

[Kor]

And who can forget Williams' score for Superman: The Movie?

Kor

 

[cardinal biggles]

The ultimate recycler may be Leonard Rosenmann, who at least gave us good work in REBEL WITHOUT A CAUSE, FANTASTIC VOYAGE and THE CAR. He loved his own score for ROBOCOP 2 while hating Poledouris's. So at least Horner's higher than Rosenmann in my estimation.

Rosenman's theme from RoboCop 2 pretty blatantly rips off his theme from Star Trek IV, which subtly rips off his theme for Bakshi's Lord of the Rings.

 

[Sgt. Sacrament]

Wow, Goldsmith and Williams are two of the greatest film composers of all time (I'd say they're both in the "top 5" if you will). Unfortunately for Goldsmith, both were at their peak in the late 70s and early 80s, or else Goldsmith would have racked up some more Academy Awards. Not to mention that an Oscar for "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" was virtually stolen from him due to one of the first times a score (an opposing one) was passed out on tape for voters to listen to. "ST:TMP" is one of his greatest works.

I agree with Foxhot above that "Goldsmith at least equal to Williams"... but they are both so incredible, I'd rather enjoy their music than try to pick between them.

When I think of Williams, there's so much to like, but most of all I love his heart-warming melodies. Goldsmith is harder to nail down... I guess with him I'm continually impressed by his rich creativity and continued excellence over the decades, I'm constantly hearing new things in scores of his that I've listened to dozens of times.

I love Horner as well. His voice was beautiful and unique. He's not as high on my list as Goldsmith and Williams (he's certainly a "top 20" or even "top 15" guy at least), but I love his work at much Goldsmith and Williams.

You should post this question at the Film Score Monthly board (http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/threads.cfm?forumID=1) for a bit more robust conversation!

 

[Admiral2]

If I could only have one, then Goldsmith. The opening SUPERMAN theme and the entire score of THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK are as good as Jerry's finest.

But since I would take ALIEN before STAR WARS on a desert island, once again, Goldsmith prevails.

Only the Supes theme and ESB compare to Goldsmith's work. Seriously?

I go by this question: "If I'm making a sci-fi epic, who do I want to score it?"

Even if it's a trek epic, there's no way in hell I'm considering Goldsmith if I ask Williams and he says "Sure, why not?" He has more awesome under his creative belt than Jerry Goldsmith has in his entire repertoire.

 

[RandyS]

I'm partial to all three without preference. In fact, the only John Williams music I DIDN'T like was the Ewok theme from RETURN OF THE JEDI.

 

[Sgt. Sacrament]

But since I would take ALIEN before STAR WARS on a desert island, once again, Goldsmith prevails.

Having purchased the complete "Alien" soundtrack that Intrada released in the last year, I'd agree with you. The opening titles that Goldsmith originally intended is one of the most incredible things I've ever heard - it truly shows that Ridley Scott, brilliant visual director that he is, has a tin ear for replacing so much of the score! I'd say that Goldsmith's "Alien" is arguably as good as William's "Empire Strikes Back."

But I'll let others argue about it. What a moron I am to even think I can criticize Williams or Horner or Goldsmith. I'm just thankful (if it's not unPC to say that) to just enjoy the riches of these musical geniuses. What an age we live in, when we have access to so much incredible music!

 

[eyeresist]

Having purchased the complete "Alien" soundtrack that Intrada released in the last year, I'd agree with you. The opening titles that Goldsmith originally intended is one of the most incredible things I've ever heard - it truly shows that Ridley Scott, brilliant visual director that he is, has a tin ear for replacing so much of the score! I'd say that Goldsmith's "Alien" is arguably as good as William's "Empire Strikes Back."

Do you mean the End Titles music? I love that piece, and think Scott made a big mistake rejecting it. I quite like the Hanson symphony he used, but it doesn't fit the rest of the soundtrack, and the actual sound of the recording is not good compared to the rest of the OST.

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I first got to know this music in a performance conducted by Williams!

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[auntiehill]

I love Williams; it's very grand, inspiring and as others have said, it captures the spirit of adventure. I do prefer his work over Goldsmith's, although I do agree that some of Williams' later pieces seem to be a bit repetitive.

A composer who I think is often under-appreciated is the great Ennio Morricone. I find his music very emotional, nuanced and moving. They aren't just about power as they are about intricacy--a delicate nature that I find extremely interesting.

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[Sgt. Sacrament]

Do you mean the End Titles music? I love that piece, and think Scott made a big mistake rejecting it. I quite like the Hanson symphony he used, but it doesn't fit the rest of the soundtrack, and the actual sound of the recording is not good compared to the rest of the OST.

Here's the 'alternate' opening that Goldsmith originally wrote. It's 4 minutes long, and slows grows into a beautiful and grand romantic statement. It's incredible. Scott rejected it in favor of Goldsmith's scary alien theme, which is also incredible in its own right, but not as great for the opening. In the liner notes for the Intrada release, Goldsmith noted that it took him a day to right the original one, but only about 5 minutes to write the one Scott wanted. Here is a link to the original one, in all its glory:

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​

 

[eyeresist]

^ Same as the end title.

 

[arch101]

Williams reminds me SO much of Wagner, with all the leitmotifs. I'd think that in a hundred years, Williams' complete Star Wars collection will be held in similar regard to Wagner's The Ring Cycle by classical music enthusiasts. He's mostly been pretty conservative with his scores.
Goldsmith was never afraid to experiment. Note the use of tools, rocks, metal, even the Blaster Beam to add texture to his scores. Logan's Run- an electronic score is used within the city, switches to orchestral for the outside world. Sound effects including "monkey sounds" on Planet of the Apes. Wood and bamboo in Papillon. The mechanical sounds for the Borg in First Contact (with help from Joel). Williams only took the leap with the electronic backgrounds of Attack of the Clones.
Some people think both composers sound similar but I can definitely tell the difference. I tend to associate strings with Williams and brass with Goldsmith. For a better comparison, don't compare Star Wars with Star Trek, compare Raiders of the Lost Ark and King Solomon's Mines. Both excellent scores for films VERY similar in tonality.
Addendum on Horner: Except for Apollo 13, he did all his best work in his youth. He excelled in "making do with less". The score for Krull is a masterpiece. Battle Beyond the Stars is pretty good, too.

 

[mos6507]

I hate to sound negative towards Goldsmith because he's one of the top guys of all time, but I have to dock him vs. Williams for two reasons.

#1) in his final years, Goldsmith's scores got kind of quiet and dull and too synth-heavy. Most of Trek V and Nemesis are like that.

#2) at times, Goldsmith's music feels derivative or insincere. Mercenary is maybe the best word for it. In his interviews you can kind of get the sense that he's maybe not as sentimental about his job as you'd think he would be, that he knew it was "a job". I think Williams, who has been accused of being a sappy composer, makes more of a direct emotional investment in his work.

For instance, take his work on Supergirl. That is Goldsmith following Williams' footsteps and just kind of mimicking Williams. It's good, but it feels inauthentic, forced, maybe a little by-the-numbers cliche'.

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(this version doesn't have the cheezy synth stingers that are in the actual movie.)

Goldsmith's legacy lies more in his experimental side like raking the piano wires in Planet of the Apes or the TMP blaster-beam, doing things that were his unique innovations.

 

[eyeresist]

Goldsmith's legacy lies more in his experimental side like raking the piano wires in Planet of the Apes or the TMP blaster-beam, doing things that were his unique innovations.

But this is in line with his use of synths. He looked for unusual sounds to spice up his scores. The synths tended to be a bit too high in the mix. There was good use of synth in Outland (underrated movie and score), also in Total Recall.

 

[trynda1701]

Outland (underrated movie and score)

Agreed!

I think the alternate score for the Alien intro could have worked actually. But I just enjoy both composers music without trying to say who is best! If you get a chill or smile or whatever from music, the composer is doing something right!