In TMP, when Spock is exploring the interior of V'Ger, he sees images of planets and stars and galaxies, which he theorizes to be representations of V'Ger's journey. Later on he states that V'Ger's knowledge has reached the limits of the universe itself. But I was wondering, did V'Ger really travel throughout the entire universe, or was a lot of its knowledge given to it by the machine race which initially found and upgraded it?
Extent of V'Ger's journey
- Thread starter Noddy
- Start date
The references in the film are contradictory. At one point, Kirk says V'Ger came from the other side of the galaxy -- which is one piece of "evidence" that some people use to support the absurd notion that V'Ger was created by, or created, the Borg. But Kirk's information is thirdhand at best. I'd take the evidence from Spock's spacewalk as more authoritative.
In my novel Ex Machina, I asserted that Voyager 6 had been thrown not only across huge distances of space, but thousands of years back in time, allowing time for the intergalactic journey over which V'Ger evolved and grew until it had reached the limits of knowledge on this plane of existence. I don't think it could've achieved that level in just three centuries of crossing a single galaxy. How could it have run out of things to learn about the universe if it had only seen one galaxy? (The more recent novel Cold Equations: The Body Electric by David Mack uses the same assumptions about V'Ger's origins, since Dave wanted to stay consistent with what I'd done.)
In my novel Ex Machina, I asserted that Voyager 6 had been thrown not only across huge distances of space, but thousands of years back in time, allowing time for the intergalactic journey over which V'Ger evolved and grew until it had reached the limits of knowledge on this plane of existence. I don't think it could've achieved that level in just three centuries of crossing a single galaxy. How could it have run out of things to learn about the universe if it had only seen one galaxy? (The more recent novel Cold Equations: The Body Electric by David Mack uses the same assumptions about V'Ger's origins, since Dave wanted to stay consistent with what I'd done.)
All the information V'Ger possessed about the universe need not have been discovered directly by it though. As advanced as the machine civilization that found it was, I'd imagine they'd done plenty of exploring themselves, so perhaps they shared a lot of their knowledge with V'Ger before sending it off on its way.
^But that wasn't the impression given by the Spock Walk sequence. It implied that what we were seeing was stuff that V'Ger had directly imaged and/or digitized.
^Yes, that's why I reject Kirk's line that V'Ger only came from the other side of the galaxy. Spock's line was: "I am seeing images of planets, moons, stars, whole galaxies all stored in here, recorded. It could be a record of V'Ger's entire journey."
DECKER: Voyager VI ...disappeared into what they used to call a black hole.
KIRK: It must have emerged sometime on the far side of the Galaxy and fell into the machine's planet's gravitational field.
SPOCK: The machine inhabiters found it to be one of their own kind, primitive yet kindred. They discovered its simple twentieth-century programming. Collect all data possible.
DECKER: Learn all that is learnable. Return that information to its Creator.
SPOCK (OC): Precisely, Mister Decker, the machines interpreted it literally.
SPOCK: They built this entire vessel so that Voyager could fulfil it's programming.
KIRK: And on its journey back it amassed so much knowledge, it achieved consciousness itself. It became a living thing.
Spock merely speculated it "could" be a record of V'Ger's journey, but alternately the "machines" could have provided V'Ger with part of their knowledge, too.
Question: Back in the 1970's, did we mistake "wormholes" for "black holes"?
Bob
KIRK: It must have emerged sometime on the far side of the Galaxy and fell into the machine's planet's gravitational field.
SPOCK: The machine inhabiters found it to be one of their own kind, primitive yet kindred. They discovered its simple twentieth-century programming. Collect all data possible.
DECKER: Learn all that is learnable. Return that information to its Creator.
SPOCK (OC): Precisely, Mister Decker, the machines interpreted it literally.
SPOCK: They built this entire vessel so that Voyager could fulfil it's programming.
KIRK: And on its journey back it amassed so much knowledge, it achieved consciousness itself. It became a living thing.
Spock merely speculated it "could" be a record of V'Ger's journey, but alternately the "machines" could have provided V'Ger with part of their knowledge, too.
Question: Back in the 1970's, did we mistake "wormholes" for "black holes"?
Bob
What are they calling it now? And why isn't he using the term all his fellow people use for it?
I think they still call black holes black holes but some black holes were probably reclassified as wormholes.
Why they didn't just say wormhole though is anyone's guess unless they thought it important to make the distinction between an ex-black hole wormhole and a standard wormhole...
Why they didn't just say wormhole though is anyone's guess unless they thought it important to make the distinction between an ex-black hole wormhole and a standard wormhole...
Just another example of Trek using the dialogue to remind us it's the future... as if the starships and technology wasn't enough reminder.
Perhaps V'Ger's backwards time travel should be "billions," and not "thousands."
^Two words: warp drive.
With apologies for mentioning the possibility of the Borg connection (some people seem to dislike it much), when we met VGer it used to store data patterns ("assimilate"?) of the lifeforms and planets he encountered, possibly absorving their knowledge. That would really speed up the process (of learning everything).
V'ger comes across as incredibly old and having travelled a portion of the universe similar to Destiny in SG:U.
Whatever Voyager 6 fell into, may not even have been a wormhole, but some strange multigalactic or universe spanning event Starfleet has barely any understanding of.
Whatever Voyager 6 fell into, may not even have been a wormhole, but some strange multigalactic or universe spanning event Starfleet has barely any understanding of.
trevanian
Rear Admiral
Perhaps it is a lack of clarity on the part of the filmmakers but the really cool electric lite-brite planet Spock first passes over when discarding his thruster thingie was intended to be the machine planet where vger was repaired (this is made pretty clear in interviews with Trumbull and I think Greg Jein at or shortly after the film's release ... I even remember it was built by a guy named Joe Garlington.)
It's inclusion here would mean what, that vger digitized/zapped his re-builder before booking out to find his creator? I don't see that as terribly likely, which suggests this is as stated in the film, an imaging system displaying a record of its travels, which just happens to include stuff it zapped (unless it actually digitized 'whole galaxies' or even whole star systems, which seems like overkill.)
^Two words: enormous universe.
Sounds like we need to start a "V'Ger vs. the Borg: who would win?" thread...
Which is tantamount to a "The Borg vs. Hammurabi: who would win?" thread. Like I keep saying, V'Ger's technology is immensely beyond the Borg's.
