Guy Gardener said:
BolianAdmiral said:
^
That's an interesting take, but again... I can't buy it...
O, I wasn't nailing anything down, I was both agreeing and disagreeing with you showing evidence for both arguments because of Voyagers inconsistent handing of time travel. If you don't agree with everything I said, does that include the bits where I agreed with you? Because if you think I am wrong when I say you are right, is that always true?
BolianAdmiral said:
"Year of Hell" was not about DELETING entire timelines... Annorax never really "erased" an entire timeline... he merely kept making adjustments to the existing quantum universe, thus constantly splitting the timelines into untold multitudes of variant timelines, each of them existing in our OWN quantum universe.
I'd say he was "renovating" a single timeline/universe, yes. And no branch theory came into play, which would absolutely muck with his working theory if it did. However our language needs to be a little more consistent since you're also stating that several timelines can exist simultaneously in a single universe, when really the expression of coexisting timelines is evidence of a multiverse.
BolianAdmiral said:
Annorax said he understood how time works.
Imagine someone who only "said" they knew how an atomic bomb worked, being given the yellow cake uranium to build a bomb and the authority to use it. And really, a hundred years form now, considering how dangerous atomic technology is right now, you'd have to pray that the lab boys running things by then would laugh about how on the ball our science was at the beginning of the 21st century. Monkeys with machine guns.
Annorax said...
Track the temporal wave front as it passes through the system. I want to monitor every change in the time line as it occurs.
One timeline, one universe. No branch theory. He was "physically" doingover the entire universe like a second coat of paint leaving no evidence of what used to be as aspects in a lone universe are removed deleted and the shape of continuity rushes into the full the vacuum becoming manageably and predictably deformed by Annorax’s science.
BolianAdmiral said:That may or may not be true... the paper metaphor I used applies, because it works...
Depending which Braxton you ask. They disagree with each other despite both of them policing time quite arrogantly.
BolianAdmiral said:what Annorax did was try different tweaks here and there to get differing results... he kept folding the paper in so many different ways, that the paper (the timeline) was so wrought with wrinkles and anomalies,
Um? What Anomalies? They’d been changing time over and over again for 200 years, needing a couple months inbetween temporal incursions to make the detailed calculations to figure out beforehand what exactly sort of temporal restoration their given incursions would effect. It was seemless.
BolianAdmiral said: that in the end, there were countless temporal strings of timelines, that had all been generated in OUR universe.
The only after effects or shadows of what had been before were only in effect from if people were temoporally shielded like Voyager and the fleet they eventually shared that technology with, and Annorax too who did his business outside of spacetime disconnected from the effects of the universe he was restructuring. He remembered species that had never existed and drank their wine too, but his ships logs would be a hell of a lot more precise about the extent of the cultural exterminations he was responsible for.
Annorax said…
You can't imagine the burden of memory that I carry thousands of worlds, billions of lives gone, brought back, gone again. I try to rationalise the loss. They're not really being destroyed, because they never existed. Sometimes I can almost convince myself.
BolianAdmiral said:
Remember... time is NOT physical. Time is a constant, and we percieve it by measuring events that take place, intervals that go by, etc.
Annorax was able to compartmentalize himself out of the Universe and time itself. Living in a place with no time, while he sculpts time, you can bet your underwear that to him from that perspective that ‘time” and “space” are a lot more substantial than folks like us would account for since we’re drowning in the stuff and can’t even notice it.
BolianAdmiral said:But there was no time when there was no time... there was simply a time when our perception of time did not exist.
Very Zen. But bad science fiction writers say here that the technology exists and was being used by a love sick idiot to treat all of time like it was a bowl of porridge from which he could pick out all the disgusting raisins he thought was ruining the flavour.
BolianAdmiral said: That being said, OUR universe recorded/records EVERYTHING that has ever happened.
But he was changing the universe/timeline so that things never happened to be recorded. Only people protected from the universe’s definition of reality or out side of reality knew the changes were taking place. Remember the movie Momento? Like that. There was a physical element, the wake, which was the crest of reality ripping away from the effects of Annorax’s weapon which upon site of Janeway was about to say “Brace fro impact” you don’t brace for impact from something insubstantial.
BolianAdmiral said:You CANNOT undo anything that has been done,
Sure you can. Annorax did it heaps, and Janeway undid everything he undid by removing the temporal weapon from the history of the universe. That’s all this story was about, convincing time to forget about itself Like the Haitan zapping memories of family and loved ones in Heroes.
BolianAdmiral said: because history at one point recorded it, and so it exists forever in the fabric of the timeline...
Not according to Annorax who used terms like “Scanning for temporal remnants” and ‘Total temporal erasure”. Kiri-Kin-Tha's First Law of Metaphysics clearly states "Nothing unreal exists". Isn’t a wondering with that kind of thinking behind the cue that the Vulcan science directorate proved that time travel was impossible.
BolianAdmiral said: so Annorax could never really "fix" the timeline, because from time's perspective, there is nothing wrong... time just goes on, as Annorax initiates his "fixes", and creates new strings of timelines.
Not with how he understood his technology to work and how he understood time to work. No strings. No new timelines just the same place with a new face-lift over and over again for 200 years. He was after a restoration. He wasn’t travelling. And considering he was outside of time, unaffected by the changes that he made then surely he would notice in timespace was revolving underneath his orbit?
BolianAdmiral said: Time as an entity or force, if you will, always remains the same.
You have a nice theory about how time works if you want to write your own stories, but there is no unified theory for time travel in the Star trek Universe because no one kept the writers in line when they were handing in bull()*& conflicting scripts about time travel from TOS through to Enterprise. What this, is really about, is reading comprehension. You can’t walk into this discussion with preconceived notions about how things “have to be & must be” because this is fiction and the laws governing almost everything in these stories are super malleable, because there are about as many possible ways that time travel works as the writers choose to use with disrespect to one another as with seen this time in Endgame or in Year of Hell, or yet again in Futures End or Fury which are allowed to conflict using different rules because we don’t expect much from Voyager and we don’t expect any better of them, or at least I don’t. Square peg, round hole vs. triangle peg round hole.
