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Dumb things in TMP

I didn't read the bit you did for Whatculture, but did you include McCoy's Disco-bondage neck-gear? :lol:

I don't have a problem with the reveal of V'GER's identity as Voyager 6. It's fun. It's tactile, with cool actor-business, and narratively it's a smoking gun that leads Kirk to know exactly what he has to do to save earth. It may not be the revelation it was hoped to be, seeing as how it brings to mind NOMAD, but I think it's effective and satisfying.

Get your head-canon straightened out. The machine planet inhabitants scanned Voyager, read its program, then said

"Oh, hey, that must read Voyager 6 on the side."
Machine planet Janitor steps up with a damp rag. "You want me to wipe the dir--"
"Geez! NO! just leave it like it is."
"It looks pretty grimey, I can just--"
"Listen, I'm telling you, the Creator is probably going to be upset if we start screwing around with it. Just leave that for now..."

And et cetera.

And I was kidding, above. McCoy's love medallion is far-out and rockin'!
 
I loved the Probe Couture.

The uniforms were so bad that I was glad Persis Khambatta got to wear attractive, sexy outfits...with heels.

Ever notice how Bond movies from the 70s show women in bikinis by the pool area...with heels.
It's still stupid.


On topic I think that Kirk's space travel and demotion of Decker are the top 2 dumb things for me. Why is Kirk out in a space suit to rescue Spock? They couldn't tractor him back in or beam him?

And the whole Deck demotion thing is borderline incompetent. Kirk is an admiral and can assume mission command of the Enterprise without a problem. Decker oversees the ship's operations and Kirk oversees the mission. Ugh. It's so dumb.
 
On topic I think that Kirk's space travel and demotion of Decker are the top 2 dumb things for me. Why is Kirk out in a space suit to rescue Spock? They couldn't tractor him back in or beam him?
Kirk wasn't out there to rescue him. He wanted Spock to lead him to it.
 
I think the transporter accident should be higher in the list. They are actually in the process of repairing the transporter so why is there anyone in the transporter room standing by to beam people, much less actually beaming.

Unlike some though, I have no problem with the grade reductions of Kirk and Decker. They are being inserted into Stafleet's overall chain of command and are temporarily given the ranks appropriate for the CO and XO of a starship.
 
Kirk wasn't out there to rescue him. He wanted Spock to lead him to it.
It still doesn't make sense for Kirk to be out there. I mean, its a tried and true staple to put the leadership in harms way but this is top level stupid.
The last thing that TMP needs is for the main characters to spend even more time on the damn bridge.
So we send the highest ranking officer out to possibly die?
They are being inserted into Stafleet's overall chain of command and are temporarily given the ranks appropriate for the CO and XO of a starship.
Perhaps, but Kirk handled it in the worst possible manner.
 
But this gets back to the central problem with the film — I believe articulated by Harold Livingston —that was that they set up this godlike being of effectively infinite capability and for our heroes to have any sort of relationship to it undermines the premise and makes the premise inherently false.
It would be interesting to see what Livingston said.

But, yes, I agree this is a problem. It's a problem because the writers seemed to take seriously the idea that V'ger had reached the limits of knowledge in this universe. V'ger clearly lacks an understanding of what "carbon units" are, and what machines are, for that matter (at least in the case of machines from Earth), so its knowledge of what's going on in the universe is demonstrably incomplete. The premise is therefore absurd. The idea that higher dimensions are needed just for V'ger to be able to get to something new is equally so; V'ger was unfinished with these dimensions in the here and now.

But it could have been the start of a position regarding hubris: V'ger thinks it knows it all, but it doesn't. It's a shame that wasn't an aspect of the conversations among the main cast. Naïveté wasn't V'ger's only flaw. There was ignorance, of course, but also arrogance. An ability to leap beyond logic wasn't the only human trait that V'ger needed (in order not to be a danger to everyone). The premise that V'ger acted like a child implies that it also needed plain old emotional maturity.

---

Getting back to the list in the OP (it's a good list,** by the way), one thing that's always bothered me in the film is how the Enterprise survives a hit from the plasma weapon when everything we've seen so far hasn't. I get it: the ship is still in peril because we are told that it can't handle another attack, and this is showing us that the ship has been upgraded. Plus, it's not unreasonable that even V'ger's technology has limits. But V'ger has scanned the ship, it's super-advanced, so the idea that it wouldn't send something capable of penetrating the shields is hard to believe. We are told later that (at least in Spock's opinion) V'ger seems to have scanned whole galaxies, and since there's only one way we've been shown that it scans things, presumably those galaxies were absorbed the same way that the Klingon ships, Epsilon IX, and Ilia were, but by an even larger-scale version of the process.* So, if V'ger can eat that much, it just doesn't make sense, especially this late in its journey after it's become extremely experienced, that it would miss on its first try at the Enterprise.

How to fix that? We already know getting hit by the weapons is bad news. Just have Spock realize that V'ger has been trying to communicate*** and send the reply before the first missile hits. V'ger shuts it down, and Spock has saved the ship. Oh, and Uhura should have at least helped to have figured some of that out.

* - Arguably that's also dumb, but I don't really have a problem with it. It strongly necessitates that the black hole threw V'ger back in time as well as to the other side of the universe, though. That way, V'ger has time to wander the universe and eat whole galaxies before returning back to the Milky Way.

** - Regarding some of the things on the OP list, I never had a problem with the Klingons attacking the cloud. By their broadcast, they have identified a vessel inside the cloud, and they are trying to repel an invader in their territory. No doubt by Klingon logic (and some human logic IRL), V'ger's destruction of the attacking ships is evidence of it being a threat.

Also, the black hole that V'ger fell into could have been one of extragalactic origin, just passing through the solar system or near interstellar space with high proper motion (improbable, but not impossible). Sure, it would have been better to have said that, but it's not really "dumb" in the same way that most other things on the list are.

As for the only starship in interception range thing, this can be mitigated by having V'ger approaching Earth at high speed. Enterprise is "in range" because it's approaching V'ger from the direction V'ger's headed in. The central problem here (not mentioned in the OP article AFAIK; oh, and, ha ha), is that if Enterprise is the only ship in range, then there isn't any other ready starship in Earth orbit at all! WTF?!? I agree that it would have been an improvement to have sent another (Federation) ship in ahead. Spock can even have received scans to analyze and discover V'ger's attempts at communication from long range as the other ship goes in. So, the two attacks are split between two ships. Spock doesn't discover the high frequency transmission in time to have saved the first ship, but forewarned the Enterprise is ready when they arrive at the cloud.

And:

*** - As to what V'ger's communication was that Spock replied to to save the ship, it could have just been V'ger's version of linguacode. But yes, that absolutely should have been followed up on.
 
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^^^
Nice post.

The Klingons are stupid for the exact reason stated: They are effectively three microscopic cells attacking something that can generate a powerfield the size of the Earth. Unless the cloud was going to run over one of their planets, why bother? And as portrayed there seemed to be so sense of immediacy. The klingons see this thing, go "huh" and shoot at it.

I don't entirely agree with your reasoning re V'ger. V'ger had presumably infinite data on how the universe works, what it lacked was understanding and meaning which are different things: "logic and knowledge are not enough." From its POV carbon units are just protein mechanisms. Do you give a second thought to the microorganisms you kill every time you use anti-bacterial soap? Because that's what a carbon unit is to V'ger. Even merging with its creator won't give it more knowledge. It has all this universe's data it can stomach. What it needs now is a reason to exist. Yeah, maybe not necessarily higher dimensions, but if it can, why not?

As to the black hole, the fastest known object in the universe is traveling at 0.0034 light speed, and even at that velocity this black hole would be only 1.028 ly away from where it sucked up Voyager 6, and likely a lot less, and surely Starfleet would know about it and have figured out what a near-miss it must've been. It would still be on all the local charts as a speed bump.
 
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^^^
Nice post.
Thanks. :)

I don't entirely agree with your reasoning re V'ger. V'ger had presumably infinite data on how the universe works, what it lacked was understanding and meaning which are different things: "logic and knowledge are not enough." From it's POV carbon units are just protein mechanisms. Do you give a second thought to the microorganisms you kill in every time you use anti-bacterial soap, because that's what a carbon unit is to V'ger. Even merging with its creator won't give it more knowledge. It has all this universe's data it can stomach. What it needs now is a reason to exist. Yeah, maybe not necessarily higher dimensions, but if it can, why not?
If V'ger really knew all that, then it would have known that the Enterprise was manufactured by carbon units, and it would have known that a major function of the starship was to sustain the carbon units with its life support systems. Inconsequentially microscopic to it or not, in its dismissal of the carbon units as an infestation of the starship, V'ger betrayed ignorance of the basic operation of what to it would have been a primitive machine. That's straight-up faulty knowledge about how things operate in this universe, not an issue of the meaning or value ascribed to it or of understanding.

Regarding the carbon units as organic components of the primitive mechanical system that constituted the starship probing its interior would have been a vast improvement.

The lack of a factual accounting of its own origin is perhaps the most glaring omission in its knowledge of this universe. V'ger cannot possibly have complete knowledge of this universe if it either lacks a step-by-step description of how it was created or has fundamental misconceptions regarding those steps. Perhaps it knows what transpired on the Machine Planet, but it seems to know only that the object that came to the Machine Planet came from Earth, not how on Earth it was created. As per Decker's comment that we all create God in our own image, V'ger seems to have made suppositions about how both the object that came to the Machine Planet and the Enterprise were created. Those suppositions do not constitute knowledge and by the necessity to suppose they betray ignorance, an absence of factual knowledge.

The Klingons are stupid for the exact reason stated: They are effectively a three microscopic cells attacking something that can generate a powerfield the size of the Earth. Unless the cloud was going to run over one of their planets, why bother? And as portrayed there seemed to be so sense of immediacy. The klingons see this thing, go "huh" and shoot at it.
Perhaps what's missing is a graphic of the Klingons targeting the actual vessel inside the cloud that Mark Lenard's character mentions, instead of graphics showing just the cloud. The power field was indeed enormous (82 AU for the power field surrounding a vessel that can eat galaxies isn't too big, arguably it's too small, but perhaps it was in galaxy-cruising mode), but the vessel itself was only, what, tens of miles across? The Klingons might have been trying to see if they could hit the shrouded vessel. Their astonishment is that their weapons can't even get close; it's not an illusion or a light show, it really is as powerful as it looks. If they had standing orders to attack all intruders in Klingon space who do not communicate and who do not turn back, it makes sense to me that they'd attack anyway.

Granted, we lack full context. The dialog we have from them is rather minimal, and perhaps that's a by-product of the decision to give them their own language. Honestly, the most we learn comes from the translator at Epsilon IX, which is feeding us info in English. I'd've preferred to hear the Klingons talking to each other in English just have gotten a better understanding of why they were attacking (e.g., to have them cite a standing order to attack all unidentified intruders).

[...] surely Starfleet would know about it and have figured out what a near-miss it must've been. It would still be on all the local charts as a speed bump.
Sure, it's still going to be on the Federation charts, but I don't quite get your point. Is it that Decker calls it "a black hole," as they would something never encountered again, and not one that they refer to by name, as "BH-1" or whatever? Would it have been better for Decker to have said:

Voyager 6... unexpectedly discovered the close-Earth black hole BH-1 and was lost.​
 
Part of the blame lies in how Nogura handled it. Despite the expediency, Kirk should have never arrived on the ship ahead of the transfer of command orders.

Nogoura was probably thinking "Ok you cocky prick....you want the ship and the mission....? YOU go tell Decker yourself. Have a nice day."
 
We are told later that (at least in Spock's opinion) V'ger seems to have scanned whole galaxies, and since there's only one way we've been shown that it scans things, presumably those galaxies were absorbed the same way that the Klingon ships, Epsilon IX, and Ilia were, but by an even larger-scale version of the process.
I never had the impression that V'ger ate entire galaxies, most of what Spock seemed to be images. One would assume that V'ger could also store high resolution images, the full digitization seemed to be reserved for smaller objects that actively interfered with it some way.
Unless the cloud was going to run over one of their planets, why bother? And as portrayed there seemed to be so sense of immediacy. The klingons see this thing, go "huh" and shoot at it.
Possible that V'ger destroyed some other Klingon thing as it was passing through and the attack shown was the response.
I don't entirely agree with your reasoning re V'ger. V'ger had presumably infinite data on how the universe works, what it lacked was understanding and meaning which are different things: "logic and knowledge are not enough."
I agree, there was a lot of hyperbole in the conversation the crew was having about the extent of V'ger's knowledge. Obviously, it hadn't learned all that was learnable. Plus, it was very rigid in its thinking. On the machine planet it seems to have been told that machines were "true" lifeforms, therefore, after that point it never seemed to consider carbon-based life as such. It needed the "human touch" to consider other possibilities.
 
I never had the impression that V'ger ate entire galaxies, most of what Spock seemed to be images. One would assume that V'ger could also store high resolution images, the full digitization seemed to be reserved for smaller objects that actively interfered with it some way.
There's no reason to assume some other form of scanning, since only the one form of scanning is ever shown and ever discussed. The jeopardy is all about avoiding the reduction of Earth to data patterns, which everyone understands to mean the destruction of all life on Earth. From everything that is said and shown, storage as data patterns necessitates the dematerialization of the object being scanned. If some other form of scanning was intended to be implied, it should have been mentioned or shown in some capacity.
 
I think the transporter accident should be higher in the list. They are actually in the process of repairing the transporter so why is there anyone in the transporter room standing by to beam people, much less actually beaming.
The thing that drives me nuts about both the transporter accident and the engine imbalance/wormhole thing is that they're both setups with no payoff. Neither one ever comes back into play or plays any sort of role in the plot. It's just "Aw geez, those two crewmen are dead, oh well, we've replaced them now! Cool!" and "The Enterprise isn't working right, oh wait, we've got it fixed now! Cool!" and then neither one is ever even mentioned again. So why waste all that time in the first hour of the movie establishing either issue, then?

Neither one of the transporter casualties is anyone that we particularly know or care about. There's never even a shot of Commander Sonak getting into the transporter on his end to remind us that he's the same guy we saw in the tram station scene that introduced Kirk. I doubt that a lot of people even remembered Commander Sonak's name on their first viewing, and the female navigator who dies never even gets a name in the finished movie. And less than ten minutes later, the deaths are all forgotten about so we can the flat joke of "Oh look, McCoy still hates the transporter, isn't that cute? He's so irrational and eccentric!"

And then engine imbalance thing, same deal. It never comes back into play later, like when V'Ger is transforming and the Enterprise has to get out quickly. If the engines failed again at a critical moment during the mission, that could've added some more much-needed suspense and jeopardy to the film. Not of the vague "That thing is 20 hours away from Earth" variety, but of the "Scotty! I need warp speed in three minutes or we're all dead!" variety. TMP needed a lot more of that.

For far too much of the movie, we're just hearing about things happening rather than actually seeing them happen. Kirk, Scotty, and McCoy all mention Admiral Nogura and what a fearsome figure he is, but the movie never even shows him to us on a viewscreen.

Spock has some sort of vision of V'Ger early on, but our only indications are him refusing a ceremonial necklace and mentioning it to Kirk and McCoy later. They could've given Spock some quick flashes of V'Ger to foreshadow the mind meld sequence later on in the film and build some more suspense if Spock was totally in his right mind, but nothing. Why did Spock choose to pursue the Kolinahr discipline in the first place, anyway? The movie never even hints at it.

Do Decker and Kirk ever come to a major disagreement over command of the mission? Not really, even after Decker's ex-girlfriend is killed. Do we ever see how devoted Decker was to Ilia before she's killed? Not really. They're slightly awkward with each other at best, and all we hear about their history is "I was stationed on Ilia's home planet some years ago" and "You never said goodbye", so we never get terribly invested in their love story. Why is the Ilia headband important in the Ilia Probe's reawakening emotions? Who knows, but Chapel just says, "Lt. Ilia told me she wore this once", like it's a placeholder for more interesting dialogue to be added later.

Does McCoy ever call Spock out on his unemotional behavior, outside of needling him slightly during the Officer's Lounge scene? Not really. Like many things in the movie, it's just kind of forgotten about. I like a lot about TMP, but it's filled with tons of missed opportunities for conflict and drama throughout its runtime.

Ah, when I think of what TMP could have been with a decent rewrite or two before the cameras started rolling...
So we send the highest ranking officer out to possibly die?
Um... Yeah. That's what Kirk did practically every week on TOS. He's the lead, and you want your lead front and center. Kirk needs to be more active in TMP, not less.
How many away missions did Kirk go on where he directly put himself in harm's way in TOS?
None.

He did, however, go on plenty of landing parties. ;)
 
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Um... Yeah. That's what Kirk did practically every week on TOS. He's the lead, and you want your lead front and center. Kirk needs to be more active in TMP, not less.
It's still dumb. I addressed this in another post.

Is it entertaining? Sure. But dumb.
 
If it's a choice between illogical & entertaining and logical but boring, I'll take illogical any day of the week.
Go for it.

Some days I like it and obviously TOS made it work. But, Kirk is flag officer putting himself outside within the alien device that has demonstrated rather capricious attitude towards killing. It takes a rather serious situation makes it far less serious.

But Kirk was an impetuous asshole the whole movie so it shouldn't come as any surprise to me.
 
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