Disgruntled Janeway fans: try a carrot

[DimesDan]

And while the 1/20th figure is clearly pulled out of thin air, I think it's very safe to assume that "Janeway fans" are a fraction of "Voyager fans" -- after all, there are plenty of Trek fans who liked Spock more than Kirk, Data more than Picard, Kira more than Sisko, Porthos more than Archer. How large a fraction? I don't think anyone can say... but between her, The Doctor, Seven, and Tuvok, I feel safe in supposing none of them have a majority of fans.

I'm just curious why do you feel it's safe to say that?

Possibly because it has a grain of truth to it.

Although not a massive fan of Voyager when it was first broadcast over here but over the last year or so I've watched all of modern Trek and I've become to appreciate it more. BUT. Janeway is not my favourite character, hell, she's not even in the top five (The Doc, B'Elanna, Tom, Seven and Tuvok) although not my least favourite charachter, and the few people I know who also like Voyager don't think she's the best thing on there.

So why is William feeling "safe" to say what he did, because regardless of one's personal opinion on the matter, only a small number of people would say she is the best thing since sliced bread on that crew.

 

[Sci]

And while the 1/20th figure is clearly pulled out of thin air, I think it's very safe to assume that "Janeway fans" are a fraction of "Voyager fans" -- after all, there are plenty of Trek fans who liked Spock more than Kirk, Data more than Picard, Kira more than Sisko, Porthos more than Archer. How large a fraction? I don't think anyone can say... but between her, The Doctor, Seven, and Tuvok, I feel safe in supposing none of them have a majority of fans.

I'm just curious why do you feel it's safe to say that?

It's basic logic. Fandom is always divided between different characters. Look at how many folks over in Harry Potter fandom who have favorite characters like Neville Longbottom or Luna Lovegood or Severus Snape as opposed to Harry, Hermione, and Ron. Or consider the longstanding division between Harry/Hermione fans and Ron/Hermione fans. (Or the Harry/Draco fans!) Or the people who are far more emotionally invested in the fates of, say, Neville and Luna ("Did they ever get together?!?!?!?!!") than they are in Harry's battles with Voldemort or in the essential theme of the HP novels, how one approaches death.

 

[kimc]

Fandom is always divided between different characters. Look at how many folks over in Harry Potter fandom who have favorite characters like Neville Longbottom or Luna Lovegood or Severus Snape as opposed to Harry, Hermione, and Ron. Or consider the longstanding division between Harry/Hermione fans and Ron/Hermione fans. (Or the Harry/Draco fans!) Or the people who are far more emotionally invested in the fates of, say, Neville and Luna ("Did they ever get together?!?!?!?!!") than they are in Harry's battles with Voldemort or in the essential theme of the HP novels, how one approaches death.

This is true and even makes sense. However, I would also argue that the majority of those who watch Harry Potter do like Harry's character even if they are vested in Neville/Luna orwhatever.

And while the 1/20th figure is clearly pulled out of thin air, I think it's very safe to assume that "Janeway fans" are a fraction of "Voyager fans" -- after all, there are plenty of Trek fans who liked Spock more than Kirk, Data more than Picard, Kira more than Sisko, Porthos more than Archer. How large a fraction? I don't think anyone can say... but between her, The Doctor, Seven, and Tuvok, I feel safe in supposing none of them have a majority of fans.

I'm just curious why do you feel it's safe to say that?

Possibly because it has a grain of truth to it.

Although not a massive fan of Voyager when it was first broadcast over here but over the last year or so I've watched all of modern Trek and I've become to appreciate it more. BUT. Janeway is not my favourite character, hell, she's not even in the top five (The Doc, B'Elanna, Tom, Seven and Tuvok) although not my least favourite charachter, and the few people I know who also like Voyager don't think she's the best thing on there.

This however doesn't make much sense to me. You don't like Janeway and some of your friends who probably have a lot in common with you also don't like Janeway so that means that very few people like Janeway?

 

[Thrawn]

It's just simple math.

In order for this oncoming boycott to have any reasonable effect, it has to be noticeable. Full Circle will likely sell somewhere in the tens of thousands of copies, much like most trek novels these days. In order to make a dent, it has to undersell by a few hundred. That means that, not only do these theoretical legions of Janeway fans need to be quite numerous, they also need to be MORE numerous than the fans that will be buying the book that WOULDN'T have otherwise because they LIKE the idea of the story.

So think about it.

How many people do you really think fit the following criteria?
1) Huge fans of Janeway.
2) Huge fans of ONLY Janeway, or at least, mostly Janeway, to the point where they aren't interested in the stories of any of the other characters they presumably like without her there.
3) Used to buy every Voyager book that was ever released. (This is key.)
4) Now won't.

And do you think it's bigger than the number of people who
1) Buy some books, don't buy others.
2) Are intrigued by the first Voyager book in a couple years. OR
3) Are intrigued by how they'll handle Janeway's death. OR
4) Liked String Theory and want to see Beyer's next book. OR
5) Liked Destiny and want to read all the follow-ups. OR
6) Haven't even heard of this controversy at all, are new fans of the show, and are curious what happens after it ends. OR
7) etc, etc, etc

I mean, really, none of us have real numbers to back up our point here, but it looks to me like there's one very limited, specific scenario that would result in a book not being purchased that otherwise would've, and a ton of reasons that would go the other way.

We're in an economic downturn, so sales of the next few books will likely be lower across the board. In order for this to make an impact, this boycott will have to be felt over and above that downturn. And I just can't imagine a scenario that makes that happen.

Hell, how many of these exceedingly pissed and furious Janeway fans do you think will end up buying the thing anyway, out of morbid curiosity? There was a GIGANTIC movement like this when everyone found out Spock was being killed in TWOK, but most of those people ended up seeing the movie eventually.

 

[kimc]

In order for this oncoming boycott to have any reasonable effect, it has to be noticeable.

If by "upcoming boycott" you mean the decision by some individuals including myself to give future Pocket books a pass I personally don't expect my decision to not buy the books to affect the editorial direction of Pocket.

However, as a mod here it cuts me to the quick when fans on other boards say they don't feel comfortable posting on TrekBBS. The mods on this board work very hard and care about making this an inclusive place. I personally believe that each new poster adds something new and valuable to the discussions whether I agree with them or not. When fans choose to stay away we all lose.

Over the last few months Janeway fans have not felt comfortable giving their opinion on how she was treated in the books. All they want is to be heard.

If you don't agree then you don't need to post. That's a general comment - I'm not directing that at you personally. While I don't agree with your viewpoint I've found it well-reasoned.

 

[Brit]

Thrawn, your math is convoluted. Don't try to use math to argue with an Accountant.

You see the down turn as helping your point, that's at best a hollow argument. Down turn means a good, long, hard look at what will be produced. It means businesses look at what does sell well as opposed to what sells marginally. I work in the mortagage industry, an industry that is laying off people right and left, except the company I work for is hiring mostly because they have the ability to aquire new business where others have failed.

By next year Pocket Books may not even own the franchise.

Brit

 

[Sci]

Fandom is always divided between different characters. Look at how many folks over in Harry Potter fandom who have favorite characters like Neville Longbottom or Luna Lovegood or Severus Snape as opposed to Harry, Hermione, and Ron. Or consider the longstanding division between Harry/Hermione fans and Ron/Hermione fans. (Or the Harry/Draco fans!) Or the people who are far more emotionally invested in the fates of, say, Neville and Luna ("Did they ever get together?!?!?!?!!") than they are in Harry's battles with Voldemort or in the essential theme of the HP novels, how one approaches death.

This is true and even makes sense. However, I would also argue that the majority of those who watch Harry Potter do like Harry's character even if they are vested in Neville/Luna orwhatever.

Probably, but the HP novels are much more focused on the "core three" of Harry, Hermione, and Ron than VOY was. VOY, like all of modern Trek, was an ensemble series. As such, it's perfectly reasonable to suspect that Janeway fans within VOY fandom may only make up a plurality, or even just have equal numbers to fans of most other characters.

 

[kimc]

Fandom is always divided between different characters. Look at how many folks over in Harry Potter fandom who have favorite characters like Neville Longbottom or Luna Lovegood or Severus Snape as opposed to Harry, Hermione, and Ron. Or consider the longstanding division between Harry/Hermione fans and Ron/Hermione fans. (Or the Harry/Draco fans!) Or the people who are far more emotionally invested in the fates of, say, Neville and Luna ("Did they ever get together?!?!?!?!!") than they are in Harry's battles with Voldemort or in the essential theme of the HP novels, how one approaches death.

This is true and even makes sense. However, I would also argue that the majority of those who watch Harry Potter do like Harry's character even if they are vested in Neville/Luna orwhatever.

Probably, but the HP novels are much more focused on the "core three" of Harry, Hermione, and Ron than VOY was. VOY, like all of modern Trek, was an ensemble series. As such, it's perfectly reasonable to suspect that Janeway fans within VOY fandom may only make up a plurality, or even just have equal numbers to fans of most other characters.

We may be splitting hairs here. I'm just not sure I could even watch a show where I couldn't stand one of the main characters. In fact, I stopped watching "Lost" because I was starting to feel as manipulated by the Others as the main characters were - even though I liked the main characters and cared what happened to them.

My point is that most Voyager fans are going to care about what happens to Janeway simply because she's the captain - even if their favorite may be Seven or the Doctor or whoever.

 

[Thrawn]

Thrawn, your math is convoluted. Don't try to use math to argue with an Accountant.

You see the down turn as helping your point, that's at best a hollow argument. Down turn means a good, long, hard look at what will be produced. It means businesses look at what does sell well as opposed to what sells marginally. I work in the mortagage industry, an industry that is laying off people right and left, except the company I work for is hiring mostly because they have the ability to aquire new business where others have failed.

By next year Pocket Books may not even own the franchise.

Brit

And vague, unsupportable prophecies of failure aren't math, either.

To extend my analysis, how many people do you think fit the first category, who ALSO used to buy every single NON-VOYAGER book and now won't?

You seriously, honestly, truthfully, from the very bottomest of your soul, think that killing Janeway will drive off so many fans from every single series of books, even all the ones that have nothing to do with Voyager at all that Pocket will lose the Star Trek license?!

 

[Thrawn]

My point is that most Voyager fans are going to care about what happens to Janeway simply because she's the captain - even if their favorite may be Seven or the Doctor or whoever.

Right, but there's a fairly big gap between "care what happens to her" and "is so resolutely upset at her death that they refuse to read anything else".

I loved Janeway; I was extremely curious to see what happened to her. Now I know. And I'm satisfied.

 

[Steve Roby]

Over the last few months Janeway fans have not felt comfortable giving their opinion on how she was treated in the books. All they want is to be heard.

I'd be surprised and disappointed if the regulars who don't like the decision feel uncomfortable talking about it. The single issue fans, on the other hand...

What started all these proliferating threads was a very small number of people who barged in blasting at editors and writers. I'm not a Janeway fan, but I'm not convinced killing her off is a great idea, nor am I necessarily happy about a certain other death that hasn't been given much attention outside one particular spoiler topic. But the decision has been made and approved, and calling the writers and editors a bunch of names and accusing them of hating Star Trek and blah blah blah... who'd expect a warm and hearty welcome (or welcome back) after that?

 

[kimc]

I'd be surprised and disappointed if the regulars who don't like the decision feel uncomfortable talking about it. The single issue fans, on the other hand...

What started all these proliferating threads was a very small number of people who barged in blasting at editors and writers. I'm not a Janeway fan, but I'm not convinced killing her off is a great idea, nor am I necessarily happy about a certain other death that hasn't been given much attention outside one particular spoiler topic. But the decision has been made and approved, and calling the writers and editors a bunch of names and accusing them of hating Star Trek and blah blah blah... who'd expect a warm and hearty welcome (or welcome back) after that?

Before I respond to this I need some clarification here. Are you saying that one must be a regular in order to have an opinion on the books? If so, a regular to what? TrekLit? TrekBBS?

I've been posting on TrekBBS for several years. The reason I "barged in" though is because I needed a place to vent after watching "Endgame". Lucky for me the regulars on the Voyager forum were pretty friendly. Some agreed with me they didn't like the show and even others who didn't agree with me were for the most part friendly. So I stayed around.

I've said it before but I believe that while the regulars can be the lifeblood of any forum you still need the fresh viewpoints of new posters to keep a forum interesting. Sometimes though it takes an event like a botched finale or the mishandling of a favorite character to give people the motivation to sign up and start posting.

 

[Steve Roby]

Before I respond to this I need some clarification here. Are you saying that one must be a regular in order to have an opinion on the books? If so, a regular to what? TrekLit? TrekBBS?

That wasn't addressed to you so much as certain others. I was probably thinking in terms of being a regular in TrekLit. We've got people coming in saying loudly that they won't buy any Voyager books if Janeway's killed off. And a few posts later they're saying that they never read any of the other Voyager books because they've always sucked. Meanwhile, there are several people who don't like what's happened with Janeway but they've read the books and know what they're talking about and they're discussing it intelligently.

Basically, I'm a believer in Ellison's rule about everyone being entitled to an informed opinion.

 

[kimc]

Basically, I'm a believer in Ellison's rule about everyone being entitled to an informed opinion.

That can be a slippery slope. Who gets to define "informed"?

I'm a huge dog lover and know enough about the movie "Old Yeller" to say you'll never catch me watching that sicko doggie snuff film ever. Is that unfair to the creators of the film? Perhaps. Am I right to feel this way? I guess it depends on your point of view.

 

[Brit]

We have been "informed" that Janeway was killed in a Trek Book, the discussion is here. So here we are.

KimC is right you cannot define "informed".

Brit

 

[Gorf]

We've got people coming in saying loudly that they won't buy any Voyager books if Janeway's killed off. And a few posts later they're saying that they never read any of the other Voyager books because they've always sucked.

Don't spare my feelings here. I'm sure you're talking about me here so why not simply use my name? I believe in calling something by its rightful name.

I never used the word 'suck' (I do believe I voiced my opinions a bit more eloquently), and I never said I would never buy any books if Janeway was killed, but it's true that I wouldn't buy a book without Janeway in it. Hence I wouldnt consider buying a TNG book.

However, I did suggest that you keep your dead Janeway and they give us a live one. That way we'd all be happy.

Oh well I'll let you drive me off...for now.

 

[Thrawn]

However, I did suggest that you keep your dead Janeway and they give us a live one. That way we'd all be happy.

Once again... which they ACTUALLY DID.

 

[Brit]

However, I did suggest that you keep your dead Janeway and they give us a live one. That way we'd all be happy.

Once again... which they ACTUALLY DID.

No they didn't, in fact in other threads several of the authors have carfully said that this is the path the books will be taking and no one has any intention of pushing the reset button.

Brit

 

[Defcon]

We've got people coming in saying loudly that they won't buy any Voyager books if Janeway's killed off. And a few posts later they're saying that they never read any of the other Voyager books because they've always sucked.

Don't spare my feelings here. I'm sure you're talking about me here so why not simply use my name?

Because he isn't talking about you specifically? Sorry to burst your bubble, but you're not the first (and most likely not the last) one to come in here with that attitude.

 

[Thrawn]

However, I did suggest that you keep your dead Janeway and they give us a live one. That way we'd all be happy.

Once again... which they ACTUALLY DID.

No they didn't, in fact in other threads several of the authors have carfully said that this is the path the books will be taking and no one has any intention of pushing the reset button.

Brit

No, Brit, that's not what he was asking for. I would appreciate it if you knew what you were talking about before you posted something that obvious as if I were unaware of it.

He requested that, while the relaunch continue, they also publish other books set during the series with Janeway alive and well in them.

Which, I correctly noted, they did.