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News Discovery and Trek Continuity

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That does not remotely imply what you have then concluded. He hasn't said that the novels etc are canon at all, only that their continuity is impossible for the showrunners to keep to, but they try not to directly contradict then when they can.

They're either in continuity, and thus part of the canon, or they're out. He specifically identifies them as part of the continuity they seek to maintain. Ergo, they're being treated as canon.

One can argue that he misspoke or was misquoted, but that's about it.
 
They're either in continuity, and thus part of the canon, or they're out.
Uhm, no? The books (and all tie-in material) is required to be in continuity with the episodes and films (ie not contradict them, be consistent with them), but they aren't canon. There are fan fictions that are in continuity with Trek shows, but that doesn't mean that they're canon.
 
They're either in continuity, and thus part of the canon, or they're out. He specifically identifies them as part of the continuity they seek to maintain. Ergo, they're being treated as canon.

One can argue that he misspoke or was misquoted, but that's about it.
Continuity and canon not the same thing.

Twok and STID are both canon, but not in continuity with each other. What you Leave Behind and the DS9 relaunch books are in continuity with each other, but one is canon and the other isn't.
 
Uhm, no? The books (and all tie-in material) is required to be in continuity with the episodes and films (ie not contradict them, be consistent with them), but they aren't canon. There are fan fictions that are in continuity with Trek shows, but that doesn't mean that they're canon.

I'm afraid you misunderstood my point and Kurtzman's words by 180 degrees.
 
Okay, so since there is clearly confusion, let's run through the concepts again, briefly:

1. "Canon" refers to the body of work that is official lore of the universe or multiverse. It's defined by a canon policy, which is a statement or set of statements communicated to fans explaining what is or isn't official lore.

(A brand can have multiple canons, such as the dual canons with separate canon policies of pre-Disney Star Wars. These constitute separate universes, also, but are distinct from alternate universes under a single canon policy umbrella (e.g. the TOS mirror universe).)

2. "Continuity" refers to a consistent body of work, a continuous story or setting/universe. You can have multiple continuities in a canon, but the reverse is not true. In the singular, continuity logically only refers to the main-line universe that is your primary setting.

(Multiple continuities constitutes a multiverse, though we seldom count it as such for occasional visits to parallel universes (e.g. the TOS mirror universe), instead referring to the Trek universe.)

3. That which is not canon cannot logically be part of the canon's mainline continuity, or any canon continuity.

Ergo, if you declare something as part of the continuity, you are saying it is part of the canon.

4. Kurtzman specifically references past books and comics, including those about shows no longer being made, as being part of the Trek continuity that they try to adhere to when making Discovery. (That it's hard to achieve doesn't negate his stated goal.)

Ergo, he is saying the Trek books and comics are canon for at least Discovery, if not also other CBS Trek productions.

5. Books and comics were, with ultra-rare exception, never in the canon continuity before, or canon at all. Thus, this is a shift in the canon policy, one that includes continuities in addition to that seen in TOS and the TNG-ENT production era.

6. Therefore, Discovery must inhabit a different universe than TOS and TNG-ENT.

-----

Now, there are some objections that could be made here.

For one, there wasn't really a canon policy during TOS, so one could argue TNG-ENT is a separate universe. I would respond that a lack of policy is not a policy, and thus there was no contradiction.

One could argue that Kurtzman misspoke and didn't mean to imply that the novels and comics are canon. I am open to this provided there is evidence to support it from other Kurtzman statements. (I specify him because of the rank issue. It is always important to acknowledge the obvious fact that an actor or artist's position on canon may not be the official one, for instance. Kurtzman basically outranks everyone doing Trek for CBS Corp. now.)

One could also quibble with the concept of ended shows since he used the term "cancelled", and conclude that he only referred to TOS and ENT. However, I don't think that's a workable or worthwhile argument to make.

Last but not least, one can argue that the rights-holder can modify their universe via a change in canon policy as they see fit. I agree. Indeed, in the case of subtraction, this can have only a limited effect on the universe. If one were to decanonize DS9 or The Empire Strikes Back, for instance, we would lose information but there'd still be the same story thereafter.

Similarly, a minor clarification in the margins, or even minor additions, don't break the universe. Major additions, however, do.

I already used the hypothetical example of Battlestar Galactica canonizing the Stargate universe into itself. BSG's owners could claim that it was the same BSG universe as before, but this is a fundamental impossibility. Even had they been written so as not to contradict (in which case they'd have already been in the same universe), any new production of BSG that referenced SG-1 would be a break from what came before.

They can change the universe with a penstroke, in other words, but that doesn't negate the fictional reality and continuity that existed prior to the shift.
 
Short Answer: If it's a TV Series or Film, it's canon, otherwise it's not. Canon can inhabit more than one universe, such as the Kelvin Timeline. Tie-in media got to run wild with the Post-NEM Era because nothing took place after it. Now that the Picard Series is coming, that's over and that's pretty much it in a nutshell.
 
2. "Continuity" refers to a consistent body of work, a continuous story or setting/universe. You can have multiple continuities in a canon, but the reverse is not true. In the singular, continuity logically only refers to the main-line universe that is your primary setting.
I'd take "A is in a continuity with B" as a statement meaning that that A and B share the same universe. However Kurtzman said that they tried to "maintain continuity"which to me reads like him saying that they try to not outright contradict non-canon material, so if there's a story about the Enterprise going to planet Y in the 2240s Pike shouldn't have a line that specifically says the Enterprise never went to planet Y in the 2240s.

3. That which is not canon cannot logically be part of the canon's mainline continuity, or any canon continuity.
No, but it can be in continuity with it, in the sense that it doesn't contradict it, as opposed to being in a continuity with, which would mean the same universe.

Ergo, if you declare something as part of the continuity, you are saying it is part of the canon.
He didn't declare it part of the continuity he said he'd try to maintain continuity.

Therefore, Discovery must inhabit a different universe than TOS and TNG-ENT.
I find this to be an interesting conclusion, considering that a very large number of episodes from TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT were referenced in various novels and comics and all of TOS, TAS and the films were novelized, so if DSC and the comics and novels inhabit a different universe from TOS-ENT it must inhabit a universe where very large chunks of all of those still happened, which seems to make this whole thing a bit redundant.
 
He didn't misspeak, he just meant continuity in an informal sense, as in he'd have liked to maintain consistency with the novels and comics if he could, but logistically it's not possible. Canon never entered into the equation.

I don't really think that works given how he reinforces the point with "our goal…", but kudos on the best attempt so far.
 
Okay, so since there is clearly confusion, let's run through the concepts again, briefly:

1. "Canon" refers to the body of work that is official lore of the universe or multiverse. It's defined by a canon policy, which is a statement or set of statements communicated to fans explaining what is or isn't official lore.

(A brand can have multiple canons, such as the dual canons with separate canon policies of pre-Disney Star Wars. These constitute separate universes, also, but are distinct from alternate universes under a single canon policy umbrella (e.g. the TOS mirror universe).)

2. "Continuity" refers to a consistent body of work, a continuous story or setting/universe. You can have multiple continuities in a canon, but the reverse is not true. In the singular, continuity logically only refers to the main-line universe that is your primary setting.

(Multiple continuities constitutes a multiverse, though we seldom count it as such for occasional visits to parallel universes (e.g. the TOS mirror universe), instead referring to the Trek universe.)

3. That which is not canon cannot logically be part of the canon's mainline continuity, or any canon continuity.

Ergo, if you declare something as part of the continuity, you are saying it is part of the canon.

4. Kurtzman specifically references past books and comics, including those about shows no longer being made, as being part of the Trek continuity that they try to adhere to when making Discovery. (That it's hard to achieve doesn't negate his stated goal.)

Ergo, he is saying the Trek books and comics are canon for at least Discovery, if not also other CBS Trek productions.

5. Books and comics were, with ultra-rare exception, never in the canon continuity before, or canon at all. Thus, this is a shift in the canon policy, one that includes continuities in addition to that seen in TOS and the TNG-ENT production era.

6. Therefore, Discovery must inhabit a different universe than TOS and TNG-ENT.

-----

Now, there are some objections that could be made here.

For one, there wasn't really a canon policy during TOS, so one could argue TNG-ENT is a separate universe. I would respond that a lack of policy is not a policy, and thus there was no contradiction.

One could argue that Kurtzman misspoke and didn't mean to imply that the novels and comics are canon. I am open to this provided there is evidence to support it from other Kurtzman statements. (I specify him because of the rank issue. It is always important to acknowledge the obvious fact that an actor or artist's position on canon may not be the official one, for instance. Kurtzman basically outranks everyone doing Trek for CBS Corp. now.)

One could also quibble with the concept of ended shows since he used the term "cancelled", and conclude that he only referred to TOS and ENT. However, I don't think that's a workable or worthwhile argument to make.

Last but not least, one can argue that the rights-holder can modify their universe via a change in canon policy as they see fit. I agree. Indeed, in the case of subtraction, this can have only a limited effect on the universe. If one were to decanonize DS9 or The Empire Strikes Back, for instance, we would lose information but there'd still be the same story thereafter.

Similarly, a minor clarification in the margins, or even minor additions, don't break the universe. Major additions, however, do.

I already used the hypothetical example of Battlestar Galactica canonizing the Stargate universe into itself. BSG's owners could claim that it was the same BSG universe as before, but this is a fundamental impossibility. Even had they been written so as not to contradict (in which case they'd have already been in the same universe), any new production of BSG that referenced SG-1 would be a break from what came before.

They can change the universe with a penstroke, in other words, but that doesn't negate the fictional reality and continuity that existed prior to the shift.

I believe you're overthinking a statement that basically amounts to "We'll try not to be dicks and not shit all over other peoples hard work, but we can't guarantee anything."
 
I believe you're overthinking a statement that basically amounts to "We'll try not to be dicks and not shit all over other peoples hard work, but we can't guarantee anything."

Well, just looking at the show's style versus the TOS era, I'd say the pooping-on-others'-work ship has sailed.

As for overthinking things, you've gotta admit there's a certain irony in busting that idea out when we're all discussing the canon policies of a sci-fi entertainment franchise. That's kinda like yelling "hey, buddy, you're goin' too fast!" while all our nerd speedometers are pegged out. ;-)

Kidding aside, I would make two points. First, such overthinking is why my canonwars.com site was the very basis of the Trek canon Wikipedia article, and was at the vanguard of understanding Star Wars canons at a time when the subject was wildly misunderstood. Things I had to fight tooth and nail over, with 'overthought' explanations, are now common knowledge.

Second, and the above having been said, I grant that this is one quote. However, it is also a substantial one as it defines the terms we've seen him use elsewhere. When he speaks of not violating canon, for instance, we can assume he means not going contrary to the prior live-action Trek, but that's assuming a definition for "violating" and "canon". Some here would argue that it isn't violated so long as no one in prior live-action Trek specifically stated that no such thing as spore drive existed in the 2250s, for examplex whereas I find such a requirement of specific negation a rather unique point of view. And, of course, the exact meaning of "canon" is rather important.

Such quotes don't come along often.
 
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I'd take "A is in a continuity with B" as a statement meaning that that A and B share the same universe.

Agreed.

However Kurtzman said that they tried to "maintain continuity"which to me reads like him saying that they try to not outright contradict non-canon material,

Why would he expend the effort, and per his own statements limit his storytelling, by doing that sort of thing? If you're going to say you're beholden to canon and also the non-canon, how did you just not make the latter canon anyway?

Besides which, he doesn't really distinguish between shows, books, and comics in his answer in the way you suggest. He lumps it all into fifty years of continuity.

so if there's a story about the Enterprise going to planet Y in the 2240s Pike shouldn't have a line that specifically says the Enterprise never went to planet Y in the 2240s.

Direct negation alone cannot possibly serve as a rational standard. It is fundamentally illogical to demand that there be proof of a negative. Otherwise no one can debate this:

tumblr_mknqkpI47y1qil1w2o1_1280.jpg


No, but it can be in continuity with it, in the sense that it doesn't contradict it, as opposed to being in a continuity with, which would mean the same universe.

That's wordplay. The Final Countdown doesn't contradict Star Trek but that's a far cry from being in continuity with it. To be in continuity means to be part of the story. I can write a story that seeks to maintain continuity with Star Trek, but it isn't in continuity, in a continuity, or whatever. It is a non-contradictory work *based on the canon I am seeking to follow*.

Kurtzman identifies the books and comics as *part of what he seeks to follow*.

He didn't declare it part of the continuity he said he'd try to maintain continuity.

If you're trying to maintain continuity with it, what is it to you? It's canon, that's what.

"Everybody is always trying to maintain continuity {…} people decide that they want to follow a character in a book series after the show has been cancelled, and {…} then 15 years later, a new show will come on that will take that character back and you can't be consistent with everything. Our goal is always to try, always, always to try and never to negate what has existed in the novels and graphic novels but it is a literal impossibility {…} given the volume of things that are out there it's just impossible for everything to sync up perfectly. So we give it our best effort."

Looks like he defines them as being part of the continuity to me.

I find this to be an interesting conclusion, considering that a very large number of episodes from TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT were referenced in various novels and comics and all of TOS, TAS and the films were novelized, so if DSC and the comics and novels inhabit a different universe from TOS-ENT it must inhabit a universe where very large chunks of all of those still happened, which seems to make this whole thing a bit redundant.

That's upside down. I don't care about the universes of the novels. Hell, each one was supposed to be its own, in my day. What's relevant here isn't how things downhill were, though, but how Kurtzman has now elevated them.
 
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