At least he had a jacket.So NuSpock marooned NuKirk without a communicator? Or a phaser it seems. Or he would have used it against the Cloverfield monster on NuDelta Hoth.
Delta Vega
- Thread starter AmbassadorPointyEars
- Start date
i like that observation and it is something we see over and over.
they will call in a starship from some distance off just to see why communications have been lost.
and just because scotty has some type of communications dosnt mean he had access to state of the art communications or sensors.
heck he was napping when they walked in and keenser seemed to be doing mantainence work.
scotty didnt seem to think it odd that he wasnt aware of the arrival of a landing party or a ship in orbit to bring them when they showed up.
which pretty much shows that they didnt have an orbital sensor system that would automatically alert them to the presence of a ship.
oh and yeah that planet didnt have to be right next to vulcan for elder spock to "see" the destruction of vulcan.
a telepathic projection ( perhaps in spocks mind eye he not only felt the destruction but saw it..)
or nero wanting to be sure spock saw it but was far enough away to make sure spock didnt interfere set up some type of projection system.
as for the name..
whatever..
it wouldnt be the first time in trek two different places had the same name.
heck it might be designation starfleet and the federation uses for certain types of outpost planets.
Yes, this scenario makes the most sense to me apart from the time factor involved in reaching a star system at such a low warp. With regard to sensors and communications though, the outpost (or at least the shuttle) would need long range sensors to locate the Enterprise (not really long range since the ship would have been less than a light year away but with range enough to detect a ship in orbit or a life pod landing). Even if the outpost's communications are basic, they'd be set up to detect an emergency beacon and contact other ships/relay stations i.e. in order to contact Earth or the fleet.
They could have covered this if Scotty cannibalised parts for his transporter experiment or if he has been working with Spock to modify the transporters before Kirk arrives (after all Spock wouldn't know Nero's plans beyond destroying Vulcan at this point and a long range transport would be the only hope Spock would have of stopping him... well apart from sending a warning to Vulcan but I suppose we have to assume that Spock (unlike Kirk and his emergency beacon) had no way to contact the outpost and so had to waste time getting there on foot).
spock had to go into the shuttle to use such sensors.
if they were not tied into some type of automatic alarm system and for that matter not turned on earlier scotty would not have been aware of what was going on else where on the planet.
oh and i suspect nero made sure spock was far enough away from any help or a way to contact them without taking a long walk.
if they were not tied into some type of automatic alarm system and for that matter not turned on earlier scotty would not have been aware of what was going on else where on the planet.
oh and i suspect nero made sure spock was far enough away from any help or a way to contact them without taking a long walk.
Yes, I agree - with this interpretation the whole scenario makes far more sense. Although, given his engineering qualifications, I would have thought that Scotty, after 6 months, would have tied the shuttle systems into his main systems so that he's notified if any ships pass close by - if I was stuck on a hell hole with no resources, I'd be looking to trade goods and news whenever I got the chance. However, this is a very minor gripe compared to the other plot holes. Your scenario is certainly the one I favour.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
Except of course for that annoying problem that Scotty's sensors are good enough to detect the Enterprise who knows how many LIGHTYEARS away at WARP SPEED, precisely enough TO TRANSPORT ONTO IT. Result being that his sensors should have been able to detect the ship in orbit piss easy, and that his sensors are better than brand spanking new flagship of the fleet that actually needs it, and a ship from more than a century into the future.
Except of course, that there is NOBODY to project said projection into him. Besides which, if Nero says he wants Spock to see it, he's not going to mean, "Well, maybe, possibly, with his telepathy", but with his own very two eyes, if not, he's an idiot.
He didn't activate his shields during the fight at Earth.Alright, you win, he's an idiot.
He's stranded on a planet with no way off. It's far enough away no matter how close it is.
What shuttle? There's no shuttle anywhere on Delta Vega, there's only Kirk's escape pod. And that one he didn't drag to Scotty's outpost. Seriously, if there was a shuttle that didn't need to be dragged to Scotty's outpost, he had a functional shuttle that can fly. He wouldn't need to stick around the outpost, he would have flown away trying to get to Nero in time to stop him. Not remain stuck on Delta Vega.
I don't take issue with Nero wanting Spock to 'see' the destruction but I agree it would have been better if he had said he wanted spock to 'witness' or 'feel' the death of his people instead.
The issue with the sensors on the shuttle is only problematic because the writers are piss poor at coping with warp speeds and comparative distances. On the one hand, at warp 4 the ship would be less than a light year away by the time they beam on board, which is well within the range of pretty crappy sensors. On the other hand, at warp 4 the Enterprise would not have had time to reach a nearby star system in which we believe Delta Vega would be positioned (plus it would take weeks to get back to Earth and months to reach the fleet).
The warp speed issue is the fulcrum upon which many of the other inconsistencies hinge.
The issue with the sensors on the shuttle is only problematic because the writers are piss poor at coping with warp speeds and comparative distances. On the one hand, at warp 4 the ship would be less than a light year away by the time they beam on board, which is well within the range of pretty crappy sensors. On the other hand, at warp 4 the Enterprise would not have had time to reach a nearby star system in which we believe Delta Vega would be positioned (plus it would take weeks to get back to Earth and months to reach the fleet).
The warp speed issue is the fulcrum upon which many of the other inconsistencies hinge.
You know, after dropping in and out of this thread for a few days, I still prefer the Nero comic's implication that it was a planet with an eccentric orbit and it was an incredible fluke (in a film packed with them) that DV was in viewing distance of Vulcan. It's not perfect but it works for me.
Isn't it a bit of a waste to try and argue the technicalities of a film when the writers themselves clearly weren't bothered by such things?
Isn't it a bit of a waste to try and argue the technicalities of a film when the writers themselves clearly weren't bothered by such things?
What? Do you want two thirds of the comments on this site to vanish?
I'm a lawyer and I love the challenge of finding sufficient evidence and logic to explain away the inconsistencies of Trek in general and Trek 09 in particular.
For all we know, Romulans also share this ability to sense "disturbances in the Force". Would go a long way at explaining Nero's anguish, which is quite comparable to Spock's yet undamped by Vulcan mental training.
Marooning Spock for his genocidal experience sounds a bit silly, in that keeping him aboard would have allowed Nero to supervise this torture. Then again, perhaps Nero feared Spock and thought that the old bastard would be able to undermine the plan if allowed to remain aboard? Spock would be harmless on Delta Vega, yet quite likely to live through it all and suffer the consequences.
That's an issue of range: Kirk could detect the sorry state of DDM-destroyed planets at close range, and thus could have avoided bumping into any uneaten ones - but only when essentially within the system already. Reaction time of mere seconds would still be sufficient for avoiding impacts at warp.
The inability to closely monitor neighboring systems in real time is a key feature of Star Trek, as it justifies all the starship exploration. Realtime telescopes appear to be more or less worthless in that universe when it comes to things as small as planets; lightspeed telescopes and other such sensors can tell if a planet used to be Class M a few centuries ago, but apparently not much more.
...In a lifepod, which Kirk wasn't supposed to leave. Why nuSpock didn't just leave Kirk floating in space, we don't know. Perhaps he actually aimed at dropping Kirk straight into the outpost, but something went wrong?
Or then Scotty had such a sensor, saw it indicate that a starship had just passed by at close range, launching a small craft, and assumed that crew rotation was imminent. He might well pay little attention to the details thereafter, probably in outright protest to his "treatment".
We don't have to think he didn't see the Enterprise. We only have to rationalize that he didn't see the Narada, or the small craft deployed from the Narada to insert Spock. Or then we have to rationalize that he did see them but paid little attention. Perhaps ships fly past often enough, but never stop, and Scotty doesn't want to get his hopes up for nothing?
Hmh? Where did either the hero ship or the villain ship demonstrate inferior sensors? Both saw each other all right, across warp, once within ranges similar to that of the "transwarp beaming" scene.
What would Spock see with his own two eyes? Delta Vega was clouded over in most scenes; seeing an astronomical phenomenon from the surface would be quite unlikely.
And Nero would no doubt know everything there's to know about Vulcans, not the least through being one himself. The deaths of 400 Vulcans were established to register on our favorite halfbreed across interstellar distances, as a matter of record. The deaths of billions could be expected to deliver the desired mental blow, no ifs or buts about it.
That depends solely on our preferred definition of "warp four". In TOS and TNG, it was a perfectly viable interstellar speed. In DS9, runabouts sped from system to system within plot time easily enough, at less than warp five. No episode seems to suggest let alone establish that warp four would leave a ship trundling between neighboring systems for days, let alone weeks - ENT particularly seems to establish the contrary.
OTOH, if warp four takes a ship from system to neighboring system within a few hours, that still gives our Delta Vega heroes time to catch the ship before it reaches the next system. And sensors working across the average system distance of about five lightyears are just fine from the dramatic point of view - both in this movie, where Vulcan supposedly lies quite a bit farther away from Earth than that, and in Star Trek in general.
If there's a problem with warp speeds in the movie, it's the one where the new hero ship and all the older ships seemingly span the Earth/Vulcan gap in minutes rather than hours. That's inconsistent with the bulk of Star Trek. The nuEnterprise could quite possibly be superfast, but the older ships would be unlikely to. Then again, the idea that the trip takes mere minutes hinges on the details of Chekov's PA speech. He delivers it minutes away from Vulcan - but there's no direct proof he delivers it minutes away from Earth. We seldom heard such pep talk in TOS, so we don't know when a Starfleet skipper typically informs his grease monkeys and stokers that an adventure is approaching. Perhaps Pike had no time for such infomercials until he managed to work his brand-new ship to the desired top speed - a project that may have taken hours?
Indeed, a lot happens aboard the ship before Chekov's speech. Kirk suffers through a range of symptoms, sleeps off some of them, locates and meets Uhura; McCoy settles in and changes clothes. If the trip took a few hours, then it's nicely in line with the rest of the movie, and with the rest of Trek. (Notwithstanding the bit at the end of ST:TMP where a ship a decade more modern would do the same trip in four days; but nothing necessitates the TMP ship being faster or even as fast as the STXI one.)
Timo Saloniemi
The whole marooning plot point was stupid to begin with. No brig? On a 700 meter long starship there's no room where some annoying cadet could be locked up?
The story obviously required Old Spock to meet Kirk. And the writers obviously couldn't think of a better way to arrange the meeting.
I myself think it would have been much better if:
Old Spock had been marooned on the ice planet by Nero. He finds the base and decides to warn Starfleet and/or Vulcan. But he arrives to late, and Vulcan is destroyed. So the only choice left is to send the Enterprise a message in which he asks "Captain Kirk" to meet him on the ice planet, because he has important information about Nero and the Narada.
Uhura receives this message and informs Young Spock immediately. He then allows Kirk to get down to the planet, wondering if it could be a trap, but set up by whom and with what purpose?
Voilà.
The story obviously required Old Spock to meet Kirk. And the writers obviously couldn't think of a better way to arrange the meeting.
I myself think it would have been much better if:
Old Spock had been marooned on the ice planet by Nero. He finds the base and decides to warn Starfleet and/or Vulcan. But he arrives to late, and Vulcan is destroyed. So the only choice left is to send the Enterprise a message in which he asks "Captain Kirk" to meet him on the ice planet, because he has important information about Nero and the Narada.
Uhura receives this message and informs Young Spock immediately. He then allows Kirk to get down to the planet, wondering if it could be a trap, but set up by whom and with what purpose?
Voilà.
It seemed like there was an escalation of response there. Spock was probably going to simply have Kirk escorted off the bridge at first; locked up in the brig next; but when Kirk put up the silly struggle, Spock blew a fuse and ordered the marooning instead.
Old Spock was probably quite right about his younger self not being in complete control of his faculties...
Timo Saloniemi
You're mistaken. The shuttle was not fully operational--I think it's implied that "a wee bit dodgy" would be an over-kind assessment of its working condition--but both the shuttle's exterior and the shuttle's interior were seen. The shuttle is where Scotty's transporter was located. Compare the interior to that of the shuttle Kirk and McCoy took from Iowa to the academy.
young spock after seeing what kirk could pull off with messing around with the km back at the academy in his affected state of mind decided the only way to control kirk was to get him off the ship.
he possibly feared that kirk would compromise the brig and be back on the bridge within ten minutes..
:P
and yeah it was done for plot.
a lot of crazy stuff went on within even the best star trek due to demands of plot.
as far as i am concerned if half of the mad monster stuff was done away with then what took place on delta vega made the demands of plot worthwile.
he possibly feared that kirk would compromise the brig and be back on the bridge within ten minutes..
:P
and yeah it was done for plot.
a lot of crazy stuff went on within even the best star trek due to demands of plot.
as far as i am concerned if half of the mad monster stuff was done away with then what took place on delta vega made the demands of plot worthwile.
Hell, the first time we SEE Scotty he's asleep at a desk in the middle of a garage somewhere. Six months marooned on an ice planet with nothing on sensors but snow creatures, he's probably stopped checking them long ago (especially since, given his situation, there aint alot he can do about it if something DOES happen).
As I said in another thread, he might not have needed to detect anything at all. Spock was able to transport the two of them using a simple mathematical equation, evidently without knowing anything at all about the Enterprise's speed or coordinates (other than the fact that it was traveling at warp, which Kirk would have taken as a given by now). If it's anything like Emory's "subspace node" in "Dadealus" all they'd have to do is tune the transporter to Enterprise' warp field and fire it up; the beam would be immediately drawn to the warp field even across interstellar distances and they'd re-materialize somewhere inside the ship.
Since he didn't have much control over WHERE they de-materialized, I think Scotty's beaming into a water tank should be considered "best case scenario."
He didn't need one when the Intrepid was destroyed.
Considering the elaborate lengths he took to achieve that end in the first place--even in the case of YOUNG Spock... yeah, he kind of is.Besides which, if Nero says he wants Spock to see it, he's not going to mean, "Well, maybe, possibly, with his telepathy", but with his own very two eyes, if not, he's an idiot.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
Well, learn something new every day. I was so overwhelmed by all the other horrifying plotholes and bullshit going on in that same scene, I didn't even notice the transporter is in a shuttle...
Producing even more giant ass plotholes and bullshit. Thank for pointing out to me, the movie is even worse that I already thought it was!
They would still need to know the Enteprise's warp field... which they need the FTL sensors for. Of course, it makes the idiocies only bigger, but eh.
It should be considered shitty writing.
There was no projection with the Intrepid, nothing visual. Just a psychic echo of them dying. Which is NOT a visual projection of Vulcan being destroyed.
Or to put it in other terms: bad writing.Considering the elaborate lengths he took to achieve that end in the first place--even in the case of YOUNG Spock... yeah, he kind of is.Besides which, if Nero says he wants Spock to see it, he's not going to mean, "Well, maybe, possibly, with his telepathy", but with his own very two eyes, if not, he's an idiot.
Well, learn something new every day. I was so overwhelmed by all the other horrifying plotholes and bullshit going on in that same scene, I didn't even notice the transporter is in a shuttle...
Producing even giant ass plotholes and bullshit. Thank for pointing out to me, the movie is even worse that I already thought it was!
Even worse, a SHUTTLE has the capability of beaming you across several lightyears, even though the engineers think you can't beam that far. If an engineer thinks something is impossible to do, then the engineer doesn't design a machine to be able to do it. Apparently, the shuttle needs the sensors to detect the Enterprise at warp, it needs to locate a free space inside, too. And it requires the energy to support a beam over that distance. And whatever is needed to focus the beam needs to be able to focus even over that distance. All of that stuff can't be achieved by simply typing a new formula into a computer. You need to change the hardware.
Don't forget that this particular shuttle is also a bit of a wreck
.They could have covered many of these problems if they had shown that Scotty had already modified the equipment in order to continue the experimentation that got him into trouble or if Spock was already at the base working with him to modify the transporter so that he (Spock) could transport onto the Narada to try and stop Nero.
Kirk being dumped in the snow in a life pod just wasted time, created an excuse for CGI beasties, and led to one of the worst contrivances in the movie (stumbling into Spock in a cave - and where did Spock get all that wood from anyway?). Better by far to transport Kirk to the outpost under armed guard (I proposed Janice Rand just because it allows the use of a missing recurring character) so he can interact with Spock Prime straight away. They could have required Kirk to step outside to modify some equipment in order to use the CGI beasties.
Definitely the weakest part of the whole movie. But I guess they needed contrived action there because the adjoining part between nuKirk and oldSpock would have to be awfully talky in any case.
I've got nothing against Scotty having FTL sensors and comms but not using them much. Nor do I mind him having a shuttle that's not actively used for flying but does serve as a nice framework/powerplant for Scotty's own experiments or the like. (He might have had a flightworthier craft in some other hangar, I guess.)
Transporters aboard shuttles I have absolutely no problem with - we've never been told that transporters would be a resources-intensive technology, that is, one requiring big powerplants or big computers or big anything. There's probably a limit somewhere between the big STXI shuttles and the TOS midgets, but there's little dramatic/continuity need for the limit to be drawn above the STXI shuttles IMHO.
As for whether treknology can perform feats far beyond design intent, I refer ya all to the warp drive of the TOS ship. Her chief engineer was convinced everybody would die horribly if warp 7 were unduly sustained, yet the ship stretched to feats that included bursts of warp 14+ or warp 11 sustained for three centuries, with minimal modification of key components.
It makes perfect sense that some parts of the ship could take a million time their "design load", since many things in this world are rather insensitive to loads. Say, the wings of an average jet fighter might not be capable of taking more than ten positive gees, but they could easily take five hundred gees of linear acceleration even when the aircraft's propulsive system is barely capable of slightly over one gee in that direction.
The warp coils are an obvious analogy: they can already take everything from warp zero to warp eight, so there's no absolute necessity that they'd be built unable to take warp ten or eleven. We don't know if there would be any savings at all in limiting their durability to warp nine - perhaps every warp coil is automatically capable of warp thousand or better, even though the power systems rarely do better than warp nine?
Transporter systems might well rely on similarly "overengineered" components - there might be no need to "underengineer" them to only achieve 40,000 km range, no advantage to it.
Timo Saloniemi
