Crew Rank Insignia?

[Avro Arrow]

Disco's 23rd century uniforms had shoulder stripes that varied among various ranks, IE everyone below Captain had a certain pattern, Captains had a unique pattern and Admirals had their own. But I'm pretty sure those stripes were strictly decorative and didn't correspond to particular ranks.

To illustrate what @The Wormhole is saying, here are the different Discovery shoulder patterns. Everyone gets the large stripes going around the shoulder seam. As @The Wormhole mentioned, those don't correspond to ranks: men's uniforms always have five, and women's uniforms always have four. For captains, the piping on top of the shoulder between the collar and the sleeve seam becomes gold (or presumably the department colour for non-command division captains?), and then for admirals, the piping at the sleeve head also becomes gold.

but I still find the new versions to be immensely obtuse.

I actually think they're kind acute! Seriously, though, I do like them.

Interesting they have Commodores wearing Flag Officer's uniforms like the Admirals on SNW, as it should be. As opposed to Picard where for some reason Commodores wear standard officer's uniforms.

We've seen that the dress uniforms for flag officers and non-flag officers are identical in design. So I like to think (based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever) that the flag officer's uniform and the standard uniform that we've seen correspond to something like this:

vs.

So I'd like to think that if a flag officer had to go out in the field in SNW, that they'd switch to the standard uniform. (And similarly, a non-admiral could wear the style of uniform April wears in certain situations.) We pretty much know from the dress uniforms that the rank insignia on the shoulders correspond exactly to the similar rank insignia on the sleeves. (And yes, now I want to see an episode where April accompanies the crew on a mission, and switches to standard uniform. I wonder if it would retain the navy blue colour, or if it would go to a "standard" division colour? Although knowing television, he'd probably just keep the same uniform we always see him in! )

Spoiler

There was a background Tellarite with 3 fingers in the Season 1 finale. But it's a real blink and a miss, so I don't blame you for missing him.
https://twitter.com/gaghyogi49/status/1662519033110073344

Nice catch!

~~~

So just some random speculation, which I guess I have to spoiler code because it contains information from episode 2 (plus it will help this post to not look so long! )

Spoiler: Rank speculation that inlcudes some minor info from S02E02

Except for ensign/lieutenant J.G., TMP used the TOS system for non-flag officers. The only flag officer we saw was Rear Admiral Kirk, and he had an extra-wide stripe (in this case, actually three full stripes together as one), with a single full stripe.

So if this also matches TOS, and then if that also matches SNW (I know, big "if"), then potentially the flag ranks could be:

Commodore - 1 extra-wide (season 2 episode 1)
Rear Admiral - 1 extra-wide, 1 wide (speculation based on TMP)
Vice Admiral - 1 narrow, 1 extra-wide, 1 narrow (season 2 episode 2) (although in TOS the narrow stripes are instead broken stripes, and I don't think this one would look that good in that format)
Admiral - 1 wide, 1 extra-wide, 1 wide (all April's episodes)

I believe the Kelvin movies also use the TOS system (with narrow stripes for the TOS broken ones, just like SNW) for the non-flag ranks. I honestly wasn't familiar with the Kelvin flag ranks, but I did some Googling, and this is apparently Marcus's uniform from Into Darkness (it's a photo from an auction site, so forgive the watermark):

There were five pips on the shoulders, so I assume he is a fleet admiral. Now, these stripes don't fit well with the others because it seems it uses only wide and narrow stripes, no extra-wide. But looking at April's insignia, if we map the Kelvin stripes to the next width up, then maybe the last admiral grade could be:

Fleet Admiral - 1 wide, 1 extra wide, 2 wide

But this is very far into speculation, and I don't necessarily expect this is what SNW will use if they ever need to have a fleet admiral. And the other thing is: apparently those stripes that Marcus wore, were also the same stripes that Pike wore in ST2009, and he only had four pips on his shoulders. So it's not even that clear-cut that it's supposed to represent a fleet admiral at all.

I'll stop now. If you're still reading, sorry this was so long, and thank you for your indulgence!

 

[fireproof78]

I actually think they're kind acute!

I see your angle.

 

[The Wormhole]

men's uniforms always have five, and women's uniforms always have four.

Interesting, I never noticed that before. Though, to do such a thing seems an odd choice to make today. How many stripes would a non-binary person have, or an alien from a race that could have multiple genders or even just one?

So I'd like to think that if a flag officer had to go out in the field in SNW, that they'd switch to the standard uniform.

Which kind of ties into something I've been thinking about for the past few years ever since someone in another thread about ranks and/or uniforms commented on the oddity of Admirals having their own unique uniform. From TNG, onwards, that is, TOS and its movies had the Admirals wearing essentially the same style of uniform as everyone else, though the Monster Maroons did give the Admirals gold piping.

But anyway, I began wondering if the original idea behind a unique Admirals uniform was based on the mistake civilian belief that flag officers in today's militaries always wear their dress uniforms at all times and the intent was Admirals are basically wearing a more formal uniform. Indeed, the first Admirals uniform we see on TNG in Hide and Q was basically a variation of the standard officers dress uniform. Though it's obvious as the 24th century shows went on that idea, if was ever a thing to begin with was eventually discarded given we eventually saw separate dress uniforms for Admirals. Ah well, it's still an interesting thing to speculate about all the same.

 

[Spike730]

I'd say Pike and Marcus were both full admirals but Marcus being CnC got an extra pip. Similar to how the CnC's fleet admiral uniform in TUC was slightly different to Fleet Admiral Carwright's uniform.

Of course the narrow-extra wide-narrow stripes muddy the water so at this point I think it's better not to dwell too much on it. They didn't bother to fix their other rank issues for Season 2, so I'm going to assume it's not a top priority for it all to make sense.

 

[C.E. Evans]

...I began wondering if the original idea behind a unique Admirals uniform was based on the mistake civilian belief that flag officers in today's militaries always wear their dress uniforms at all times and the intent was Admirals are basically wearing a more formal uniform. Indeed, the first Admirals uniform we see on TNG in Hide and Q was basically a variation of the standard officers dress uniform. Though it's obvious as the 24th century shows went on that idea, if was ever a thing to begin with was eventually discarded given we eventually saw separate dress uniforms for Admirals. Ah well, it's still an interesting thing to speculate about all the same.

I'm inclined to think the reason why flag officers have different uniforms was simply for audiences to very easily differentiate admirals from regular officers ("Hey, look at me--I'm an admiral!"). Even though the rank insignia alone would have sufficed in the real world, the producers may have been taking into account viewers unfamiliar with the practice. A different uniform for admirals very quickly lets everyone--from casual viewers to longtime Trekkers--know they are top brass.

 

[Blue Squadron]

I'd say Pike and Marcus were both full admirals but Marcus being CnC got an extra pip. Similar to how the CnC's fleet admiral uniform in TUC was slightly different to Fleet Admiral Carwright's uniform.

Into Darkness: Marcus had the thicker stripe with two stripes above and one below (as seen in the post above) but Pike had just one above and one below.

Of course the narrow-extra wide-narrow stripes muddy the water so at this point I think it's better not to dwell too much on it. They didn't bother to fix their other rank issues for Season 2, so I'm going to assume it's not a top priority for it all to make sense.

Yup, there seems to be no effort at all to try to make this make sense. I see lots of mental gymnastics here to try to explain it all away but it is what it is and the bottom line is that the ranks in SNW Season 1 were just a hot mess.

Going back to DSC and the introduction of the original version of the “Enterprise” uniforms, they originally managed to forget that rank stripes were supposed to be there at all and, after someone reminded them, they had to retrofit them to the costumes and then also CG the cuff stripes onto the uniforms in the shots they had already completed! That gives you some idea of the level of attention to detail they originally didn’t have…

Personally, I think it’s a shame that SNW followed the Kelvinverse patterns of straight stripes. I think they would have been much better served staying clear of that and using a streamlined and modernised version of the wavy and broken stripes from TOS.

The whole point about the final TOS insignia is that they were meant to be reminiscent of naval sleeve insignia but in a format that was deliberately completely different from any existing or historical naval insignia, hence the pattern of wavy and broken stripes.

The wardrobe department have in no way used a consistent system that ties up with the established character histories or the episode dialogue — and even the dialogue and set graphics weren’t consistent with each other.

The other issue is the questionable decision to use metallic stripes of the same colour as the tunics to denote the ranks. It was interesting just how much better the uniforms worked when they changed all the rank insignia to gold for the flash forward scenes in A Quality of Mercy.

That said, I assume that there *is* an underlying system, and it’s broadly based on the Kelvinverse ranks, which in turn simplify the TOS ranks, but it just seems to be very poorly implemented and the costume designer / wardrobe staff don’t appear to care enough to want to use it consistently or to make any effort to correct their own errors.

But, honestly, this is nothing new. Costume and script inconsistencies in respect of Starfleet ranks are pretty much a Star Trek tradition but this particular production team seem worse than most and really do not appear to be interested in taking the time to correct those inconsistencies.

For what it’s worth, the underlying system now seems to be:

Ensign: no stripe

Lieutenant JG: thin stripe

Lieutenant SG: standard stripe

Lieutenant Commander: thin stripe over standard stripe

Commander: two standard stripes

Captain: thin stripe between two standard stripes

Commodore: thick stripe (now seen in S2)

Rear Admiral: not seen but, given the insignia for the ranks above and below, it is likely to be one thin stripe over the flag officer thick stripe

Vice-Admiral: thick stripe between two thin stripes (now seen in S2)

Admiral: thick stripe between two standard stripes

Fleet Admiral: not seen but if they continue to follow Kelvinverse we could reasonably expect it to follow Marcus’ insignia, with two standard stripes over thick stripe over standard stripe

I rather doubt it will get any better as the season progresses so we’ll just have to roll with it.

[Edit to correct some unhelpful autocorrect that I had missed! D’ohh…]

 

[fireproof78]

Into Darkness: Marcus had the thicker stripe with two stripes above and one below (as seen in the post above) but Pike had just one above and one below.



Yup, there seems to be no effort at all to try to make this make sense. I see lots of mental gymnastics here to try to explain it all away but it is what it is and the bottom line is that the ranks in SNW Season 1 were just a hot mess.

Going back to DSC and the introduction of the original version of the “Enterprise” uniforms, they originally managed to forget that rank stripes were supposed to be there at all and, after someone reminded them, they had to retrofit them to the costumes and then also CG the cuff stripes onto the uniforms in the shots they had already completed! That gives you some idea of the level of attention to detail they originally didn’t have…

Personally, I think it’s a shame that SNW followed the Kelvinverse patterns of straight stripes. I think they would have been much better served staying clear of that and using a streamlined and modernised version of the wavy and broken stripes from TOS.

The whole point about the final TOS insignia is that they were meant to be reminiscent of naval sleeve insignia but in a format that was deliberately completely different from any existing or historical naval insignia, hence the pattern of wavy and broken stripes.

The wardrobe department have in no way used a consistent system that ties up with the established character histories or the episode dialogue — and even the dialogue and set graphics weren’t consistent with each other.

The other issue is the questionable decision to use metallic stripes of the same colour as the tunics to denote the ranks. It was interesting just how much better the uniforms worked when they changed all the rank insignia to gold for the flash forward scenes in

That said, I assume that there *is* an underlying system, and it’s broadly based on the Kelvinverse ranks, which in turn simplify the TOS ranks, but it just seems to be very poorly implemented and the costume designer / wardrobe staff don’t appear to care enough to want to use it consistently or to make any effort to correct their own errors.

But, honestly, this is nothing new. Costume and script inconsistencies in respect of Starfleet ranks are pretty much a Star Trek tradition but this particular production team seem worse than most and really do not appear to be interested in taking the time to correct those inconsistencies.

For what it’s worth, the underlying system now seems to be:

Ensign: no stripe

Lieutenant JG: thin stripe

Lieutenant SG: standard stripe

Lieutenant Commander: thin stripe over standard stripe

Commander: two standard stripes

Captain: thin stripe between two standard stripes

Commodore: thick stripe (now seen in S2)

Rear Admiral: not seen but given the name sign is for the ranks above and below it is likely to be one thin stripe over the flag officer thick stripe

Vice-Admiral: thick stripe between two thin stripes (now seen in S2)

Admiral: thick stripe between two standard stripes

Fleet Admiral: not seen but if they continue to follow Kelvinverse we could reasonably expect it to follow Marcus’ insignia, with two standard stripes over thick stripe over standard stripe

I rather doubt it will get any better as the season progresses so we’ll just have to roll with it.

I think I'll print this out and mail it to Paramount.

 

[Blue Squadron]

I think I'll print this out and mail it to Paramount.

LOLz!

Thirty years ago this sort of shit used to irritate the hell out of me and trying to make rational explanations seemed somehow important (yes, I’m thinking of Chief O’Brien’s magical and continuously changing rank insignia and the Season 3+ flag officer insignia).

These days I’m still aware of the obvious errors but just shrug and move on. Sure, it would be nice if they could consistently get it right (I mean, how hard would it be to put a copy of the same reference chart up on the wall in both the writers’ room and the wardrobe department…?) but, honestly, life’s too short to get angry about it or to engage in the sort of pretzel-like mental gymnastics needed to try to rationalise what is basically just an ongoing screw-up.

 

[fireproof78]

LOLz!

You think I'm joking?

Well, I'm already writing them.

 

[Avro Arrow]

Vice Admiral - 1 narrow, 1 extra-wide, 1 narrow (season 2 episode 2)

I guess this little bit of speculation turned out to be accurate, with the character being introduced on-screen as Vice-Admiral Pasalk. We can probably then infer that April is a full (what would have been in TNG a four-pip) admiral, since his grade appears to be higher than Pasalk's, and if he was a fleet admiral, that probably would have come up in dialogue by now.

Interesting, I never noticed that before. Though, to do such a thing seems an odd choice to make today.

To be honest, I'm guessing they just never gave it that much thought in 2016 or whenever they designed the Discovery uniforms. (Although they did also carry those shoulder stripes over onto the Enterprise uniforms in season 2, with the same 4/5 division. They just don't stand out as much since they're just the same colour as the surrounding fabric.) But I definitely agree that it wasn't really a good choice, and if Discovery were starting this year, they never would have done it, and probably would have just kept the same number of stripes for everyone. And they obviously dropped that element of the design in the 32nd-century uniforms.

How many stripes would a non-binary person have, or an alien from a race that could have multiple genders or even just one?

I guess technically the stripe difference is based on the men's or women's cut of the uniform, and therefore may not necessarily correspond to the gender identity of the wearer. But perhaps it is telling that they never (AFAIR) put Adira in a 23rd-century uniform any time during season 3.

TOS and its movies had the Admirals wearing essentially the same style of uniform as everyone else, though the Monster Maroons did give the Admirals gold piping.

The one outlier in that era appears to be TMP, which showed Kirk in a unique style of uniform before he took command of the Enterprise. But I don't know if that's strictly an "admiral's uniform", or just a difference between a more formal version and a field duty version. (My understanding is Bob Fletcher made copious notes, so that answer may be out there somewhere?)

Into Darkness: Marcus had the thicker stripe with two stripes above and one below (as seen in the post above) but Pike had just one above and one below.

Apologies, but you may be misremembering.

Personally, I think it’s a shame that SNW followed the Kelvinverse patterns of straight stripes. I think they would have been much better served staying clear of that and using a streamlined and modernised version of the wavy and broken stripes from TOS.

OTOH, the straight stripes (although not the rank insignia system itself) ties in better with "The Cage", which is chronologically before this show, and "Where No Man Has Gone Before", which is chronologically after, so the choice kind of makes sense in-universe. (And from a RL perspective, I would assume that whatever they're using for the stripes is easier to source than custom-making wavy ones?)

The other issue is the questionable decision to use metallic stripes of the same colour as the tunics to denote the ranks. It was interesting just how much better the uniforms worked when they changed all the rank insignia to gold for the flash forward scenes in A Quality of Mercy.

Definitely agree. The blue ones are especially difficult to see.

Lieutenant JG: thin stripe

Lieutenant SG: standard stripe

Either way has a bunch of inconsistencies, but it almost has less inconsistencies with on-screen material if we assume they went to a standard stripe for lieutenant j.g. and one standard/one thin for lieutenant, rather than just translating the TOS version. (Of course, if they had intentionally done this, it would have made so much more sense to give ensigns one thin, rather than none.)

But between TOS itself, the Kelvin movies, and Discovery season 2, the TOS-system (whether you express it in wavy/broken or thick/thin stripes) is so well-established for at least captain and below, that I do wish they had just gone with that, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel or whatever it is they are doing here. Ultimately, it doesn't detract from the greatness of the show, but it just would have been a nice touch.

but, honestly, life’s too short to get angry about it

No anger here, just engaging in some interesting (but as you say, ultimately unimportant) speculation about costuming in our favourite franchise!

 

[Blue Squadron]

I think I'll print this out and mail it to Paramount.

LOLz!

Thirty years ago this sort of shit used to irritate the hell out of me and trying to make rational explanations seemed somehow important (yes, I’m thinking of Chief O’Brien’s magical and continuously changing rank insignia and the

You think I'm joking?

Well, I'm already writing them.

In which case, I wish you the very best of luck — go for it!!

 

[Blue Squadron]

Interesting, I never noticed that before. Though, to do such a thing seems an odd choice to make today. How many stripes would a non-binary person have, or an alien from a race that could have multiple genders or even just one?

In all honesty, I think you’re overthinking this.

I don’t believe this variation was ever about specific gender differentiation; I think it has much more to do with different body shapes and shoulder widths between men and women and keeping the width of the shoulder piping broadly similar between the two, hence five rows for men and four rows for women.

I don’t think this particular costume designer initially realised just how much Trek fans obsess over minor details. I really do think this was about balancing the overall visual appearance of all the costumes rather than an overt attempt to separate characters of different genders.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The people on the shows at all levels and positions tend to forget what obsessive nitpickers fan can be.

 

[Blue Squadron]

Apologies, but you may be misremembering.

No anger here, just engaging in some interesting (but as you say, ultimately unimportant) speculation about costuming in our favourite franchise!

Ah, you’re absolutely correct and I am misremembering this!! I was thinking for some reason that the Kelvinverse admiral stripes also tied up with what we knew of the TOS flag rank insignia. I had forgotten that they changed this.

I really wasn’t specifically suggesting that any one individual here was particularly “angry” per se, more that these discussions often generate more heat than light.

If I have one BIG reservation about the straight stripes instead of the wavy stripes it’s this: the straight stripes, whether the JJ-trek version or the DSC/SNW versions, they just look far too much like contemporary naval insignia, which then gets people all confused with “why is a captain wearing LtCdr?” or “why does a lieutenant only have one stripe?” And so on. The whole point about the TOS stripes was that they looked completely different to contemporary insignia.

If anything, even without the overlaid “wavy” part, I would have used a broken stripe made of alternating rhomboids and blank spaces like the TMP insignia instead of using the thin stripes to replace the TMP broken stripes.

 

[fireproof78]

The people on the shows at all levels and positions tend to forget what obsessive nitpickers fan can be.

Showrunners: fans won't notice this detail.
Fans: Hold my beer.

 

[137th Gebirg]

The suits literally always underestimate the pedantry of the fandom. They also seem to underestimate the fandom's general intelligence level. The two often go hand-in-hand.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The suits literally always underestimate the pedantry of the fandom. They also seem to underestimate the fandom's general intelligence level. The two often go hand-in-hand.

I wouldn't go that far.

 

[Unicron]

I admit, I kind of have mixed feelings about the SNW version of the triangular decoration medals. I'm really glad they're keeping that element, but I'm not sure if I like the new design. It seems a bit weird because it appears to be a solid, embossed piece, rather than individual medals like TOS used. It was never clear in that series if there was a particular "proper" arrangement, as the four core dress variants (Kirk's, Spock's, McCoy's and Scotty's) all had variations and the more senior flag officers in certain episodes (primarily "Court Martial") seemed to have a fairly irregular composition.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I admit, I kind of have mixed feelings about the SNW version of the triangular decoration medals. I'm really glad they're keeping that element, but I'm not sure if I like the new design. It seems a bit weird because it appears to be a solid, embossed piece, rather than individual medals like TOS used.

I prefer the new style as it's more consistent IMO with the ribbon only version of displaying the medals that both version evoke (more explicitly shown in the late movies with the "Monster Maroons" medal bars). IRL medals are only even partly separated in the more formal full medals format.

It was never clear in that series if there was a particular "proper" arrangement, as the four core dress variants (Kirk's, Spock's, McCoy's and Scotty's) all had variations and the more senior flag officers in certain episodes (primarily "Court Martial") seemed to have a fairly irregular composition.

It's unlikely that there is.

We could perhaps assume a certain degree of commonality (there's likely to be something like a "Deep Space Mission" medal for most), but McCoy's "rack" in particular probably should be very different from the others due to him not being a line officer.

 

[Unicron]

I prefer the new style as it's more consistent IMO with the ribbon only version of displaying the medals that both version evoke (more explicitly shown in the late movies with the "Monster Maroons" medal bars). IRL medals are only even partly separated in the more formal full medals format.

I might have to see it more before I decide. I admit it still looks a bit visually weird to me, due to the solid aspect and not having them look more like individual awards. I'm on the fence.

Kirk's dress uniform consistently has a glossy red medal to the left of his deltas, with Spock's having a metallic gold acorn/pineapple. Commodore Stone in "Court Martial" has a gold tassel, while Captain Lindstrom has what seems to be a sort of blue-tipped gold loop in the same episode. It's possible that Captain Krasnovsky (who wears the blue dress uniform) has a similar decoration, but unfortunately none of the screen caps I looked at provide a very clear picture. The only one on MA with a close up of him (when he reacts to the heart beat sounds being triggered on the bridge) has Krasnovksy covering his ears, so his left arm obscures his decorations. Chandra does not have a separate decoration aside from his ribbons.

This suggests to me that some awards are probably worn as full medals, not unlike contemporary systems. IIRC, the monster maroons had more traditional (modern looking) ribbons, and the council in TVH all seemed to have a hanging medallion, which to my knowledge has never been properly identified in any source. It's been speculated to be more like an official pass, which seems logical to me.

Kirk ("The Savage Curtain")

Best image of Krasnovsky, while the close up of Lindstrom in the reaction scene shows his is not exactly a medal. They might be the same design, but it's hard to tell exactly.

Stone ("Court Martial"). It's possible this gold tassel, or something similar, is the same type used for the mirror uniforms in "Mirror, Mirror."

It's unlikely that there is.

We could perhaps assume a certain degree of commonality (there's likely to be something like a "Deep Space Mission" medal for most), but McCoy's "rack" in particular probably should be very different from the others due to him not being a line officer.

It would seem that both Kirk and Spock use a pentagonal arrangement for the center deltas, with Kirk having more arranged end to end (like a starburst) and Spock having more of a pyramid shape. McCoy has four arranged in a cross while Scotty has three, suggesting these are perhaps meant to be the standard arrangements, and they both lack the "gilded" borders that line and flag officers have. Scotty's dress uniform had an extra Scottish sash and kilt when the Lincoln replica was beamed aboard in "The Savage Curtain" while he had a normal dress uniform in "Space Seed." The core actors at least have consistency.

The flag officers in CM seem to loosely follow this idea, but the "edge" deltas aren't arranged nearly as neat as those on Kirk and Spock. The fake Commodore Mendez in "The Menagerie" has a similar set up. Perhaps there was simply no time to do it correctly with the studio schedule or they figured nerdy fans wouldn't pay close attention?

Spock & McCoy ("Journey to Babel")

Scott & Spock ("The Savage Curtain")