That's classified.
Crew Rank Insignia?
- Thread starter Chaos Descending
- Start date
Hello all,
I will lend a bit of military knowledge to assist with figuring out the ranking system. This will be long so be prepared.
Captain is Two thick stripes with a thin middle strip. Military application for flagships. A flagship is called so because the commanding officer is actually a flag officer (Admiral or Commodore), but the command is bestowed upon a highly decorated Captain. Every admiral you see that is in charge of fleet operations, not stationary postings (space dock, Starfleet medical, Starbases, etc.), actually is in charge of a vessel (sometimes rotational, sometimes their "favorite" vessel) but "relinquishes" command to supervise a collective of captains and perform other duties. Enterprise is the flagship of the fleet, and April is its commanding officer (since higher-level admirals are performing other duties coming out of wartime), which is why you see him directly communicating with Pike often. According to his shoulder boards (not too clear on this), he would be a Vice-Admiral (3-star) as in accordance with how the shoulder boards currently work (large strip [commodore], add one strip [rear], add two strips [vice], and three strips [full]) so that is that.
First Officer (Lt. Commander/Commander): This one will take a bit of military application, but it makes sense once you apply standard naval practices and rankings (billeting). Typically on a smaller ship, and sometimes flag vessel, this rank is that of Lt. Commander in the beginning and Commander on memory alpha, which is usual for a first officer in development to build command experience. Pike was probably a Lt. Commander under April, then promoted to Commander, then promoted to Captain upon April's promotion. The two thick strips used on her uniform are most likely used interchangeably with Lt. Commander and Commander on the Enterprise, as was the case in early maritime days when Commander was directly above the Lieutenant with no Lt. Commander ranking until a Navy grew to the size that there needed to be a bridge between the two.
The difference is the uniform and badge insignia worn by the officer; Una wears the command uniform (gold) and the command insignia (departmental "shooting star" emblem), which means that Enterprise is only allotted one O-5 Commander rank for the crew complement (203, rather small compared to the galaxy class or other larger vessels) with the department heads being O-4 (Lt. Commander) and O-3 (Lieutenant, full grade) depending on the size and importance of the department to the vessel. Another naval tradition is that the O-5 Commander is given top positional command of even smaller vessels or bases (outposts) with small crew complements (Una in command of Archer, for instance, or Commander Al-Salah of the outpost) that help them to build experience in commanding without the direct oversight of a Captain.
Commander Una was probably promoted between Discovery and SNW after the valor-producing mission to save the universe and started using the rank during production; in current military tradition, you get promoted long before you actually assume the rank. Due to its size and mission, the larger galaxy-class vessel had several O-5 Commanders (Riker, Crusher, Troi). Discovery was a special ops vessel, and ranking was required to enter certain departments' doors.
Lieutenant: a full Lieutenant with one thick strip and a thin strip on the sleeve. Spock, Ortegas, Hemmer, and M'Benga wear this rank on their sleeve (Hemmer has a narrow upper band, but you have to look at it because of the coloring) to dictate their rank. This is the rank normally assigned to head a department in the actual military today (unless it is a larger size) and the same can apply here.
Lieutenant Junior Grade: this is most likely the thin strip on the sleeve, usually responsible for minor departments on the ship.
Ensign: No rank strip. The lowest level of officer in the fleet assigned to a ship. Typically responsible for Non-commissioned officers and crew.
I hope this can provide some basis for understanding based upon current military/maritime ranking structure and practices translated into Star Trek canon.
I will lend a bit of military knowledge to assist with figuring out the ranking system. This will be long so be prepared.
Captain is Two thick stripes with a thin middle strip. Military application for flagships. A flagship is called so because the commanding officer is actually a flag officer (Admiral or Commodore), but the command is bestowed upon a highly decorated Captain. Every admiral you see that is in charge of fleet operations, not stationary postings (space dock, Starfleet medical, Starbases, etc.), actually is in charge of a vessel (sometimes rotational, sometimes their "favorite" vessel) but "relinquishes" command to supervise a collective of captains and perform other duties. Enterprise is the flagship of the fleet, and April is its commanding officer (since higher-level admirals are performing other duties coming out of wartime), which is why you see him directly communicating with Pike often. According to his shoulder boards (not too clear on this), he would be a Vice-Admiral (3-star) as in accordance with how the shoulder boards currently work (large strip [commodore], add one strip [rear], add two strips [vice], and three strips [full]) so that is that.
First Officer (Lt. Commander/Commander): This one will take a bit of military application, but it makes sense once you apply standard naval practices and rankings (billeting). Typically on a smaller ship, and sometimes flag vessel, this rank is that of Lt. Commander in the beginning and Commander on memory alpha, which is usual for a first officer in development to build command experience. Pike was probably a Lt. Commander under April, then promoted to Commander, then promoted to Captain upon April's promotion. The two thick strips used on her uniform are most likely used interchangeably with Lt. Commander and Commander on the Enterprise, as was the case in early maritime days when Commander was directly above the Lieutenant with no Lt. Commander ranking until a Navy grew to the size that there needed to be a bridge between the two.
The difference is the uniform and badge insignia worn by the officer; Una wears the command uniform (gold) and the command insignia (departmental "shooting star" emblem), which means that Enterprise is only allotted one O-5 Commander rank for the crew complement (203, rather small compared to the galaxy class or other larger vessels) with the department heads being O-4 (Lt. Commander) and O-3 (Lieutenant, full grade) depending on the size and importance of the department to the vessel. Another naval tradition is that the O-5 Commander is given top positional command of even smaller vessels or bases (outposts) with small crew complements (Una in command of Archer, for instance, or Commander Al-Salah of the outpost) that help them to build experience in commanding without the direct oversight of a Captain.
Commander Una was probably promoted between Discovery and SNW after the valor-producing mission to save the universe and started using the rank during production; in current military tradition, you get promoted long before you actually assume the rank. Due to its size and mission, the larger galaxy-class vessel had several O-5 Commanders (Riker, Crusher, Troi). Discovery was a special ops vessel, and ranking was required to enter certain departments' doors.
Lieutenant: a full Lieutenant with one thick strip and a thin strip on the sleeve. Spock, Ortegas, Hemmer, and M'Benga wear this rank on their sleeve (Hemmer has a narrow upper band, but you have to look at it because of the coloring) to dictate their rank. This is the rank normally assigned to head a department in the actual military today (unless it is a larger size) and the same can apply here.
Lieutenant Junior Grade: this is most likely the thin strip on the sleeve, usually responsible for minor departments on the ship.
Ensign: No rank strip. The lowest level of officer in the fleet assigned to a ship. Typically responsible for Non-commissioned officers and crew.
I hope this can provide some basis for understanding based upon current military/maritime ranking structure and practices translated into Star Trek canon.
I'm fairly sure that Hemmer has the same two wide stripes that Number One, M'Benga and Chapel all wear.
Compare with the one-wide, one-narrow that Ortegas and La'an wear, who are also both in red:
The spacing between the stripes is also different if the second stripe is wide versus narrow.
Not really. There's nothing to understand here other than that the rank stripes simply don't match the dialogue.
Una was refered to as Lt. Cmdr. in her crew file in S01E01 but wore 2 full stripes. Hemmer wore 2 full stripes but was refered to as Lieutenant in S01E04. Chapel wears 2 full stripes in SNW but no stripes in TOS (she got 1 stripe in TAS/TMP). M'Benga also wears 2 full stripes but later in TOS (never saw his stripes as he wore a short-sleeved tunic) is subordinate to a Lt Cmdr and no longer CMO. I suppose he did something to get demoted both in rank and position or maybe the TOS-M'Benga is his son/nephew/brother/cousin/whatever. Ortegas, Khan and Spock are all refered to as Lieutenant in dialogue but wear what is usually understood as Lt. Cmdr. stripes.
Honestly, I don't know how nobody noticed that almost all main characters wear incorrect rank insignia or bothered to fix it in Season 2.
Yes, also Finney and Giotto were referred to as Lt. Commander despite wearing Cmdr. braid. There have always been rank inconsistencies throughout Trek but SNW set a new record with 7 main characters out of 9 having rank inconsistencies. 8 out of 10 if you feel like counting Lt./Lt. Cmdr. Jenna Mitchell.
Another data point with yesterday's premiere... Commander Pelia (I'm not sure if she's a full commander, or if that's just an instance of the usual abbreviation for a lieutenant commander) wore the same one wide stripe/one narrow stripe as lieutenants Spock, Noonien-Singh and Ortegas. (One full/one half was the lieutenant commander insignia on previous TOS & Pre-TOS era films/shows).
The show's costuming continues to be confusing...
The show's costuming continues to be confusing...
I definitely think they aren't so much actual rank stripes but positions of authority within a given command or department. You can have a lieutenant j.g., a lieutenant, and a lieutenant commander all wear the same stripes, but their insignia may simply dictate that they are department heads. IMO.
I did like your idea that you posted earlier in the thread:
It just didn't seem to work correctly for Lieutenant Hemmer, who got two wide stripes but was only a lieutenant. But I was thinking about it, and maybe this is a workaround that does work with him?
IIRC, we have only seen four Enterprise-based characters with two wide stripes: Chin-Riley, M'Benga, Hemmer and Chapel. Interestingly, all four wear different colour uniforms. So what if we keep the idea that one wide/one harrow = department head, and then expand that to two wide = division head, with division being based on uniform colour?
So in this case, Hemmer can get the two wide stripes because he's the senior officer for the division that encompasses Engineering, Security and Communications, even though he is also the department head of Engineering.
You could technically argue M'Benga, since his blue uniform is not the same colour as Spock's blue uniform. But he is wearing blue, whereas all the medical personnel in Discovery always wore white, so presumably M'Benga "counts" in the Sciences division, and can therefore serve as its head, leaving Chapel to serve as the head of Medical. (OK, she's supposed to be a civilian, but perhaps they gave her a brevet commission or something.) Perhaps the lighter blue is meant to convey a mix of Sciences and Medical.
So then we could revise your original idea to something like this:
One stripe, one thin stripe, one stripe = Captain
Two stripes = Non-captain Commanding Officers, and Division Heads
One stripe, one thin stripe = Department Heads
One stripe = Officers not heads of departments/divisions (except ensigns)
No stripe = Ensigns, Enlisted, Cadets
The note about "non-captain commanding officers" is meant to account for Commander Al-Salah of Outpost 4, who I believe is the only non-Enterprise character we've seen with the two wide stripes?
Not sure if department heads ranked as ensigns would get the department head stripes or not, since I don't think we've seen any in SNW. Unless Ensign Uhura is now head of the communications department, but we don't really have any information on that at this point.
Pelia was still wearing her Starbase 1 uniform, so this theory would assume she was head of the Engineering department there, but someone else was still in charge of the red division as a whole. I had to get this theory out there now, since I'm sure it will fall apart after Pelia's next appearance, when she's officially Enterprise crew and the highest ranked person in that division, and her stripes haven't changed!
From the creators' perspective, I can sort of see the appeal of doing something like this, since it breaks the direct correlation between stripes and rank, and therefore leaves them less prone to the ever-present Star Trek rank inconsistencies. But I do sort of wish they had just gone with the TOS-based system for the stripes, especially since Starfleet already seemed to be using it in the 2230s (ST2009) and the earlier 2250s (DSC Season 2).
(It does seem a bit odd that DSC season 2 had everyone's stripes matching what we would expect, and then SNW just went in a completely different direction. But the two shows have different costume designers, so I'm guessing Bernadette Croft just wanted to do something different?)
She was the Chief Inspector that might qualify.
On my rewatch of the first episode of the season, I did notice this during the opening scene on the bridge, mostly because the person walked into the foreground of the shot:
Perhaps Pelia's boss? Although I imagine that since the person was a non-speaking extra, that they just gave them whatever to wear, so probably can't read too much into it.
However, we did see a new rank insignia in this episode!
A single extra-wide stripe on April's colleague at Starbase 1. In TOS, this would have represented a commodore. This person's rank wasn't identified during the episode that I recall, but the actor was credited as "Commodore Tafune", so in this case, it would seem to match what we would expect based on TOS.
(I didn't get a good enough look at his badge to see how it compares to April's.)
And, there appears to be another new rank insignia in the preview images released for the next episode! Since that one hasn't aired yet, I'll spoiler code it to be safe.
Some non-insignia observations:
Perhaps Pelia's boss? Although I imagine that since the person was a non-speaking extra, that they just gave them whatever to wear, so probably can't read too much into it.
However, we did see a new rank insignia in this episode!
A single extra-wide stripe on April's colleague at Starbase 1. In TOS, this would have represented a commodore. This person's rank wasn't identified during the episode that I recall, but the actor was credited as "Commodore Tafune", so in this case, it would seem to match what we would expect based on TOS.
(I didn't get a good enough look at his badge to see how it compares to April's.)
And, there appears to be another new rank insignia in the preview images released for the next episode! Since that one hasn't aired yet, I'll spoiler code it to be safe.
This officer sitting next to Captain Batel seems to have a new insignia:
I think that's an extra-wide stripe surrounded by two narrow stripes. Compare it to the extra-wide surrounded by two wide stripes that April wears:
So I presume that this is a different grade of admiral? Presumably a lower grade than April, but I don't think we specifically know what grade April is, either?
The one thing I'm not sure of is if the presiding officer of the court (left) has a still different insignia:
It looks like her outer stripes might be a bit wider than those of the Tellarite sitting beside her? But it's difficult to tell. Maybe we'll get a better look during the episode.
I think that's an extra-wide stripe surrounded by two narrow stripes. Compare it to the extra-wide surrounded by two wide stripes that April wears:
So I presume that this is a different grade of admiral? Presumably a lower grade than April, but I don't think we specifically know what grade April is, either?
The one thing I'm not sure of is if the presiding officer of the court (left) has a still different insignia:
It looks like her outer stripes might be a bit wider than those of the Tellarite sitting beside her? But it's difficult to tell. Maybe we'll get a better look during the episode.
Some non-insignia observations:
Based on the last image above, it looks like this might be the first three-fingered Tellarite in live action since TOS?
Dr. M'Benga's dress uniform is the same colour as his duty uniform, so I guess that's supposed to be a separate division colour, rather than just an unusual colour because it's a specialty uniform, or something.
And can I say I really like what they've done with the dress uniforms? Clearly inspired by the TOS version, but with their own SNW style!
Dr. M'Benga's dress uniform is the same colour as his duty uniform, so I guess that's supposed to be a separate division colour, rather than just an unusual colour because it's a specialty uniform, or something.
And can I say I really like what they've done with the dress uniforms? Clearly inspired by the TOS version, but with their own SNW style!
I'm really not liking those big rank stripes on the shoulders. Did they start that with the Admirals back in DSC, or was this strictly a SNW invention? I honestly can't remember. Throws the whole thing way off balance, IMO.
I think it comes from DSC but it also reminds me of the wraparound tunic too.
It is possible and makes sense that the wrap-around was some inspiration for it - hadn't thought about that, actually, if I'm honest - but I still find the new versions to be immensely obtuse. On the other hand, however, it does seem solve the problem that most science fiction franchises have with tiny little rank devices that are way too small to be recognizable from a distance. On these outfits, there is absolutely no question who is at what grade, and you can see it from a mile away...
I think it's a good transition from DSC and those shoulders to a more TOS look.It is possible and makes sense that the wrap-around was some inspiration for it - hadn't thought about that, actually, if I'm honest - but I still find the new versions to be immensely obtuse. On the other hand, however, it does seem solve the problem that most science fiction franchises have with tiny little rank devices that are way too small to be recognizable from a distance. On these outfits, there is absolutely no question who is at what grade, and you can see it from a mile away...
Interesting they have Commodores wearing Flag Officer's uniforms like the Admirals on SNW, as it should be. As opposed to Picard where for some reason Commodores wear standard officer's uniforms.
Disco's 23rd century uniforms had shoulder stripes that varied among various ranks, IE everyone below Captain had a certain pattern, Captains had a unique pattern and Admirals had their own. But I'm pretty sure those stripes were strictly decorative and didn't correspond to particular ranks. Indeed, rank insignia was kept exclusively within the arrowhead badge. So yes, the shoulder rank insignia seen on the Flag officer's uniforms in SNW is created specifically for SNW.
There was a background Tellarite with 3 fingers in the Season 1 finale. But it's a real blink and a miss, so I don't blame you for missing him.
https://twitter.com/gaghyogi49/status/1662519033110073344
https://twitter.com/gaghyogi49/status/1662519033110073344
It looks very naval.
