Ancient Technology that may or may not be Ahead of its Time, or Even True

[Will The Serious]

I get some of these things occasionally as headlines on my Google front page. I have shown interest through my googling of various topics. Most miss the mark, but some grab my attention, like this one. https://dailygalaxy.com/2025/04/arc...-pyramids-using-an-ancient-high-tech-machine/

I've read studies on how the Tunnel of Eupalinos was constructed, the use of ancient canals for ocean trade in the Andes, Euclides' ship burning mirrors, and any number of ancient technological mysteries that one theory or another might purport to reveal the truth.

I believe there were technologies known to the ancients that we may find hard to believe today. That is, we find it hard to believe that Pythagoras knew about irrational numbers or that the elliptical orbiting of the planets around the Sun as the center was understood long before Copernicus. It is hard for us to imagine building the pyramids without the use of modern engines and hydrolic cranes.

The evidence that they knew something more than we know of what they had for technology lies in their achievements. The pyramids were built, therefore they had the technology to build them.

I am of the school of Occum. The simpler explanation is more likely closest to the truth. I also tend to doubt any claims to know for certain, and do not think that because we can produce a similar result through trial of a theory that means it is right.

Take this new hydro lift technique being explored for blocks weighting as much as 3 tons were lifted into place. Very complicated idea and I haven't done the math but the buoyancy of a raft to hold 6000 pounds afloat would make it a very large raft to push through an internal tunnel. Maybe, but has anyone heard of a shaduf? They were used by ancient Egyptians for irrigation. They allowed the distribution of energy to lift buckets of water out of adjacent canals by adding a counter weight to the long end of a horizontal pole set on a pivot at the top of a post, at the opposite end of the bucket on the end of a rope. You did a little work to pull the bucket down, against the counter weight, allowing the counter weight to then help you lift the water filled buck up and over into the field. Egyptians were well acquainted with levers, and counter weights. Giant shadufs, counter weighed with sacks of sand, should be capable of performing the task of lifting 6000 lbs meters into the air at a time.

I am starting this thread to explore some of these ideas of how was it done? Did the ancients have a level of sophistication that rivaled our own today, or even more? Did they simply use basic technologies in innovative ways? Did they have alien help or were there actually ancient aliens building stone structures on Earth to use as galactic maps or power supplies?

I have my theories, but I couldn't possibly know the truth. Most of the time, I don't even know what I'm talking about. That doesn't stop me from spewing my thoughts, so feel free to put your own theories into text.

-Will

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Euclides? You mean Archimedes, I think.

As for this new hypothesis, if water were available at sufficient elevation to provide ram pressure and the pipes could sustain this, why not? However, a similar proposal for the Great Pyramid was quite easily debunked. The ancients certainly knew about levers and mechanical advantage - but elliptic heliocentrism, not so as far as I'm aware. If you stack enough suitable epicycles, you do get ellipses because of Fourier synthesis, but Newton's analysis provided a simpler derivation of conic section paths due to gravitational attraction - although he admitted he couldn't explain how such action at a distance operated or why it existed. There was also an ancient Greek* who proposed the planets revolved around the Sun, but this wasn't widely accepted.

Who knows what current paradigms are simply inadequate interpretations if not altogether wrong? I suspect the Standard Model and QFT are merely approximate contrivances and computational irreducibility might be the barrier to a neat analytic representation. The cosmos might just be akin to a quantum computer - until we find the next paradigm with which to compare it.

*Aristarchus of Samos, who, like Anaxagoras, also believed the stars were just faraway suns.

 

[Will The Serious]

Yes, I meant Archimedes.

As for the elliptical orbits of planets around the Sun, ancient mathematicians were often also astronomers and navigators as well as students of other natural sciences. Conics were well understood by Greeks as far back as Apollonias of Perga (about 200bce). He was a mathematician who wrote the seminal works on conic sections. He was also a well known astronomer.

*Aristarchus of Samos, who, like Anaxagoras, also believed the stars were just faraway suns.

Samos was where Pythagoras was from.

-Will

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

As for the elliptical orbits of planets around the Sun, ancient mathematicians were often also astronomers and navigators as well as students of other natural sciences. Conics were well understood by Greeks as far back as Apollonias of Perga (about 200bce). He was a mathematician who wrote the seminal works on conic sections. He was also a well known astronomer.

I'm not aware of any ancient Greek scholar making the same deduction as Kepler regarding the shape of planetary orbits nor that any had any awareness of Fourier analysis in devising epicycles. For example the Antikythera Mechanism appears to have assumed a geocentric system based on epicyclic orbits given its inaccuracy in predicting the retrograde motion of planets such as Mars.

Samos was where Pythagoras was from.

Although Pythagoras was born about 260 years before Aristarchus.

 

[Will The Serious]

Although Pythagoras was born about 260 years before Aristarchus.

Pythagorean thought ruled Greece for nearly 500 years after his death. In that region, Pythagoras was given a status nearly the equal of Achilles or other demigods. If there were those on Samos who wrote about the stars being far-off suns, the chances are those ideas didn't just spontaneously occur to one or two individuals. They likely brought a number of close-to-the-mark ideas together and drew conclusions that meshed with established Pythagorean teachings.

It is often difficult to pinpoint the true origins of a given idea from that time because ancient Greeks often credited their teachers with ideas they, themselves originated. This was done both as a show of respect and a way to legitimize their new idea. If a student of Pythagoras discovered the relationship between the morning star and the evening star, he might very well have reported that the planet Venus is both and that it was Pythagoras himself who taught him this.

Eratosthenes measured the Earth's circumference somewhere around 200 BCE. Aristarchus also described a helio-centric planetary system a generation before that. About a hundred years later, Hipparchus calculated the Great Year at 26,000 years. These feats could only be done with a long recorded history of accurate astronomical measurements and/or a deep understanding of advanced mathematics. In fact, I believe it is Hipparchus who is credited with the founding of trigonometry.

I actually believe trigonometry existed as an understood math system long before Hipparchus, he is the one who formalized it and explained it in a text that survived.

-Will

 

[TIN_MAN]

Prof. Robert Temple has written about ancient lenses and how the science of optics was understood much, much, earlier then traditionally thought. For instance, he points out that the Druids (if memory serves) had a device that allowed them to see the mountains on the Moon.

Sadly, many of these ancient lenses are misinterpreted and mislabeled by major museums.

 

[Will The Serious]

Antikythera Mechanism appears to have assumed a geocentric system based on epicyclic orbits...

A mechanical astronomical calculator would almost need to work like that. Before computers were ubiquitous and could project their digital images of the stars accurately onto the ceilings of planetariums, the stars were projected by large complex projectors that used a similar geo-centric model with circular gears attached to circular gears in very much the same fundamental model as the Ptolomaic system. Yet, those engineers who designed those projectors understood and believed in the Copernican model of the solar system. The audience, as well as the projectors, were looking at the stars projected onto the planetarium ceiling from an Earth bound perspective.

-Will

 

[Will The Serious]

Prof. Robert Temple has written about ancient lenses and how the science of optics was understood much, much, earlier then traditionally thought. For instance, he points out that the Druids (if memory serves) had a device that allowed them to see the mountains on the Moon.

Sadly, many of these ancient lenses are misinterpreted and mislabeled by major museums.

Anthropology, archeology, paleontology, and on and on, are riddled with misinterpretation based upon prejudice of one type or another. I watched a televised research study done to determine whether chimpanzees could recognition people by their faces. A group of biologists who handled the chimp everyday stepped up to the chimp's cage to interact with him. One of the handlers, the tallest one, wore a bucket over his head to see if the chimpanzee would still recognize him. They concluded that the chimp couldn't recognize the handler who wore the bucket because the chimpanzee kept trying to lift the bucket to see who was under it.

Watching this experiment play out on the television documentary, I couldn't help but feel they were misinterpreting the evidence because they wanted to prove chimpanzees recognize faces. I believe chimpanzees are capable of recognizing faces, but even more fundamental than that, chimpanzees also know people shouldn't wear buckets on their heads and the chimp would want to help you remove that bucket. I felt certain that that chimp in the experiment didn't need to see the tall man's face to know who he was, but he did feel compelled to help that man remove the bucket from his head.

-Will

 

[Will The Serious]

Prof. Robert Temple has written about ancient lenses and how the science of optics was understood much, much, earlier then traditionally thought. For instance, he points out that the Druids (if memory serves) had a device that allowed them to see the mountains on the Moon.

Do you know the earliest dates of these lenses?
Around 350 BCE, a Greek mathematician, astronomer, philosopher by the name Pythias the Pythagorean set sail from his home in Marseilles France and became the first Greek to sail to the North Sea and discover the Brittons and the land of Thule. He sailed a classic Greek Trireme and is thought by some to have reached Iceland (Thule?). He met the Norse people and the druids of Britton.

What I find interesting is that in 350 BCE, the pre-vikings were not plying the seas with oars and square sailed long boats. They were using more crude sails and paddles. About two hundred years later, the Vikings were traveling as far as Greenland with oar and squares'l power. I'm of the opinion that Pythias likely taught the Norse people about the oar lock and introduced a more efficient sail by virtue of his own ship.

The funny part is that when he returned to Greece to publish his account of his trip, no one believed him.

-Will

 

[TIN_MAN]

Do you know the earliest dates of these lenses?

-Will

It's been a while since I've read the book, but it's still available to purchase if you are interested, It's called "The Crystal Sun", and of course there's a lot of info on the web to be found.

Here's one link...

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[Asbo Zaprudder]

Interesting hypotheses - I can well believe ancient knowledge has been lost over time and many things have had to be reinvented or rediscovered. Although I think one should be wary of being too credulous regarding some claims, it should serve as a warning about what could happen to our state of progress. I'm reminded of "A Canticle for Leibowitz" by Walter M Mlller Jr. Perhaps human civilisation is inevitably a rather brutal ratchet if we remain bound to one planet.

 

[Will The Serious]

For example the Antikythera Mechanism appears to have assumed a geocentric system based on epicyclic orbits given its inaccuracy in predicting the retrograde motion of planets such as Mars.

This just popped up on my Google front page, https://gizmodo.com/the-famous-anti...cal-disaster-new-research-suggests-2000588031
of course, not seeing the actual details of their analysis, I am inclined to believe the Antikythera worked just fine. The triangular teeth seem like an unlikely point of malfunction. Also, I wouldn't expect a craftsman of the skill level the Antikythera would require, didn't test each and every piece before assembling it permanently into the device. The Antikythera is far more likely to have worked then not.

However, whether or not the craftsmanship was up to the task of making the device work isn't what makes the Antikythera interesting. Does the math work? If the mechanics worked, would the device actually model the movements of the Sun and Moon?

-Will

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

This just popped up on my Google front page, https://gizmodo.com/the-famous-anti...cal-disaster-new-research-suggests-2000588031
of course, not seeing the actual details of their analysis, I am inclined to believe the Antikythera worked just fine. The triangular teeth seem like an unlikely point of malfunction. Also, I wouldn't expect a craftsman of the skill level the Antikythera would require, didn't test each and every piece before assembling it permanently into the device. The Antikythera is far more likely to have worked then not.

I can believe that, but I can also believe that it would have become increasingly inaccurate and non-functional over time due to wear and tear and lack of lubrication, After a few decades, it might have been reduced to an artifact that almost no-one alive would know how to fix.

However, whether or not the craftsmanship was up to the task of making the device work isn't what makes the Antikythera interesting. Does the math work? If the mechanics worked, would the device actually model the movements of the Sun and Moon?

The accuracy of the solar and lunar motions were supposedly much more accurately modelled than those of the planets. However, it's not something whose history I have than a passing acquaintance with.

 

[Will The Serious]

I can also believe that it would have become increasingly inaccurate and non-functional over time due to wear and tear and lack of lubrication, After a few decades,

Unless that wear and tear meant the repositioning and reduction of teeth in the gears, a full turn of the main drive gear would always equal the same number of turns or amount of movement to any connected components. I don't know, but I don't believe there were any belts that wore out and began slipping. Keeping the bearings from getting sloppy may be a different issue. If increasing wear in the bearings meant the miss alignment of the gears, then they may lose their one-to-one connection, but any clock maker or toy maker could figure that out. Maybe there weren't clock makers, as such, but there was clearly someone who knew mathematics, astronomy, metallurgy and gearing. Probably wasn't alone in that.

-Will

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Unless that wear and tear meant the repositioning and reduction of teeth in the gears, a full turn of the main drive gear would always equal the same number of turns or amount of movement to any connected components. I don't know, but I don't believe there were any belts that wore out and began slipping. Keeping the bearings from getting sloppy may be a different issue. If increasing wear in the bearings meant the miss alignment of the gears, then they may lose their one-to-one connection, but any clock maker or toy maker could figure that out. Maybe there weren't clock makers, as such, but there was clearly someone who knew mathematics, astronomy, metallurgy and gearing. Probably wasn't alone in that.

The historical record on such knowledge is lacking, so I'd say you're speculating if you believe that it was somewhat ubiquitous.

 

[carcinoGeneticist]

I'm not sure how much I believe this but I am sure I do not disbelieve it. It's very plausible!

 

[Will The Serious]

I'd say you're speculating if you believe that it was somewhat ubiquitous.

Of course I'm speculating. Ubiquitous is a little strong, but I feel fairly confident that there were craftsmen who dabbled in mechanical devices in many of the wealthiest of the ancient cities. Unless we are looking at more than just a unique astronomical calculator, what is the likelihood that the Antikythera creator also invented the gear?
If not, it is likely the knowledge was easily available to educated craftsmen.

---

"It’s hard to say when the first gear was developed, but some of our earliest records point back to around 2700 BCE, with gears featuring in a device called the Chinese South-Pointing Chariot. This chariot featured a gear that would automatically turn a directional arrow so it always pointed south, no matter which way the chariot itself turned. It was one of the earliest ways to gauge cardinal directions without the use of magnets.

Gears were also formally mentioned by Aristotle in some of his writings around 400 BCE. He described gears as capable of reversing the direction of momentum, and we’ve found artifacts dating back almost this far with gears as central components, such as in wheels and rudimentary clocks."

---

https://fg-machine.com/blog/a-short-history-of-gears-and-where-gear-manufacturing-is-today/

---

Pythagoras himself was raised by a gem cutter. The techniques of the lapidary involved the mathematics of dividing the circumference of a circle. It probably included the building and use of jigs that allowed for the precise positioning of gem facets. Gears would have been a natural extension of that process.

-Will

 

[TIN_MAN]

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Antikythera mechanism only seems unique to us because it survived the ravages of time by being in a shipwreck. Most ancient things made of metal were re-smelted and repurposed over the many millennia since such devices were made and used.

Due to its complexity and master craftsmanship, it's doubtful that the Antikythera was a one-off prototype but rather typical of many such devices that were once common and is merely the only example (so far) we have recovered.

There are actually quite a few references in (surviving) ancient literature to automatons and other such things that lend support to the idea that complex geared devices were by no means as rare as our conservative guesstimates would otherwise lead us to believe.

The takeaway here is that we have so precious little evidence surviving from ancient times that there's always more we don't know than we know, so we should be very careful when confidently proclaiming how "primitive" our ancestors were.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Wouldn't the fact devices like the Antiklythera exist show that people in the past were far smarter than we give them credit for.

 

[Will The Serious]

Wouldn't the fact devices like the Antiklythera exist show that people in the past were fast smarter than we give them credit for.

I guess that depends on what one gives them credit for and what one thinks an object like the Antikythera requires for sophistication to create.

... and to model the irregular orbit of the Moon, where the Moon's velocity is higher in its perigee than in its apogee. This motion was studied in the 2nd century BC by astronomer Hipparchus of Rhodes, and he may have been consulted in the machine's construction.

Maybe Hipparchus was involved, but the wreck within which the Antiklythera Mechanism was found occurred around 65 BCE, almost a hundred years after Hipparchus wrote his treatise. My guess is the device was aboard that ship as a navigation aid, telling the captain where to expect the sun and moon too rise and set.

If you have an accurate knowledge of this information, you either know what time it is when you see the sun or moon rise, set or reach its zenith, if you know where you are, or you know the time and thus, you know where you are. The same would be true of the planets and stars.

-Will