'Amok Time' question

[Ethros]

After watching Amok Time last night I just had a quick question.

Enterprise is ordered to Altair VI yet Spock needs to go to Vulcan, causing Kirk do a bit of umming and arring going back and forth


Question- why don't they just stick Spock in a shuttlecraft? They have warp drive in the 23rd Century don't they?

Was this just an oversight?



Also at the end Spock says to set course for the nearest Starbase to hand him self over to the authorities. Vulcan is a founding member of the Federation; surely there'd be some UFP facility somewhere either on the planet or in orbit. Can he not simply hand himself over there?

 

[KevasTrader]

Because then you'd have a very short story.

 

[rtc61]

It was never said whether or not shuttlecraft had warp drive. Reading between the lines, some stories seem to say 'definitely not' while others would indicate the opposite. In his Star Trek novel "Spock Must Die," James Blish states that shuttlecraft do not have warp drive (until the duplicate Spock manages to rig one up) ... but of course books aren't canon.

 

[Shatmandu]

After watching Amok Time last night I just had a quick question.

Enterprise is ordered to Altair VI yet Spock needs to go to Vulcan, causing Kirk do a bit of umming and arring going back and forth


Question- why don't they just stick Spock in a shuttlecraft? They have warp drive in the 23rd Century don't they?

If the shuttlecraft have warp speed, they're certainly not capable of the multi-warp speeds needed to get him to Vulcan before he dies.

So sticking Spock, in his medical condition, in a shuttlecraft would be like sticking him in a coffin.

Joe, well-appointed

 

[Timo]

Indeed. Probably Starfleet could arrange for a courier vessel of some sort that would have higher performance than a shuttle but not so much muscle that she would be assigned the Altair flag-showing duty. But that would be disproportionately major effort for providing shore leave to a single officer, one who even refuses to give any good reason for his leave request.

Also at the end Spock says to set course for the nearest Starbase to hand him self over to the authorities. Vulcan is a founding member of the Federation; surely there'd be some UFP facility somewhere either on the planet or in orbit. Can he not simply hand himself over there?

Given the distaste that Vulcans in that episode held towards Starfleet, I very much doubt there is a Starfleet base on or near Vulcan. Spock wouldn't just hand himself over to any civilian consulate clerk: for his due punishment, he would need Starfleet authorities. And obviously none were nearby, as there was no direct Starfleet reaction to the sudden appearance of the Enterprise in the Vulcan system...

As for whether Spock was correct in his assumption that killing his captain required Starfleet response, that's undecided. Today, a military man who murders his superior officer would probably necessarily face civilian court in addition to whatever the military wants to do with him. But Vulcan would in all likelihood not prosecute, as murder in a duel is part of their culture. And for all we know, Starfleet is the authority closest to federal police in the Federation, so in order to get to a civilian court, Spock would have to surrender to Starfleet anyway.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shatmandu]

Indeed. Probably Starfleet could arrange for a courier vessel of some sort that would have higher performance than a shuttle but not so much muscle that she would be assigned the Altair flag-showing duty. But that would be disproportionately major effort for providing shore leave to a single officer, one who even refuses to give any good reason for his leave request.

Very true. And imagine the message:

"Uh, Starfleet? Could we get a high-speed shuttle to meet us? Our Science Officer has a hot piece of ass lined up on Vulcan.

"If he doesn't get to beef her, he's just gonna die."

Joe, Kirk-Out

 

[LaxScrutiny]

As for whether Spock was correct in his assumption that killing his captain required Starfleet response, that's undecided. Today, a military man who murders his superior officer would probably necessarily face civilian court in addition to whatever the military wants to do with him. But Vulcan would in all likelihood not prosecute, as murder in a duel is part of their culture. And for all we know, Starfleet is the authority closest to federal police in the Federation, so in order to get to a civilian court, Spock would have to surrender to Starfleet anyway.

I'm not sure where you live, here and in most countries that I'm familiar with, a military court is a full court, you don't appear in both a civilian court and a military one for the same offence (I believe this is 'double jeapardy').

I wonder how the Prime Directive applies here, or if it applies at all to full members of the Federation? Does UFC law trump Vulcan law on Vulcan soil? I believe the rule is, you can't join the UFC unless your laws and culture are within the standards, which also implies that any laws and culture of any UFC planet has to be recognized and respected.

 

[Timo]

I'd assume that in general, a military court would have sentences for offenses that the civilian counterpart doesn't consider offenses, but not vice versa. That is, murder would be such a serious crime that a military court would not be let to handle it, but the military court would address issues of breach of regulations related to the case. Spock might thus get six months of hard counseling for the murder from the civilian judge, plus a 5-year military gaol sentence for striking a superior officer from the military judge...

Is there a military court out there that would really have jurisdiction over a murder case in peacetime?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vic Sixx]

During TOS shuttles are treated as short range vessels, not something you can go cruising around the galaxy in.

 

[JustKate]

I'd assume that in general, a military court would have sentences for offenses that the civilian counterpart doesn't consider offenses, but not vice versa. That is, murder would be such a serious crime that a military court would not be let to handle it, but the military court would address issues of breach of regulations related to the case. Spock might thus get six months of hard counseling for the murder from the civilian judge, plus a 5-year military gaol sentence for striking a superior officer from the military judge...

Is there a military court out there that would really have jurisdiction over a murder case in peacetime?

Timo Saloniemi

A few years ago (but I think it's still the same), when I was working in a town attached to a military base, the civilian and military authorities worked out ahead of time who would be in charge of investigations for specific crimes. The way they decided, as I understand it, was that the preference for prosecution went to whoever had the strongest penalty for the offense. So rape, murder, etc., went to local or state police, but something like drunk driving, which could be a really big deal for a military person, went to the MPs.

But there is a difference between a trial and a court martial. You could, in theory, be tried for a crime in a civilian court and also face military penalties (dishonorable discharge, say) as well. I mean, the military doesn't want somebody serving 40 years to life to still have the title "captain" or "master sergeant" or something.

So to answer your last question, I'm pretty sure a civilian court would have jurisdiction in a murder, unless it could be considered treason or some other military crime.

 

[Gary7]

I had thought of that too, about using a shuttle craft. But I just assumed it was too far given the time constraint.

What puzzles me is how Spock so easily "snaps out" of the whole thing after realizing the death of Kirk at his hands. Yet, the whole issue was the biological effects he was feeling from the mating drive. Ah... but no mating took place, as we saw. If quenching "the burning" did not require a physical sexual act, wouldn't it have been possible for Spock to meditate and just cleanse his own mind, sort of a self-hypnosis? They really failed on the consistency with this one, which kind of killed the whole episode for me. Never really liked it.

 

[erastus25]

As for whether Spock was correct in his assumption that killing his captain required Starfleet response, that's undecided. Today, a military man who murders his superior officer would probably necessarily face civilian court in addition to whatever the military wants to do with him. But Vulcan would in all likelihood not prosecute, as murder in a duel is part of their culture. And for all we know, Starfleet is the authority closest to federal police in the Federation, so in order to get to a civilian court, Spock would have to surrender to Starfleet anyway.

I'm not sure where you live, here and in most countries that I'm familiar with, a military court is a full court, you don't appear in both a civilian court and a military one for the same offence (I believe this is 'double jeapardy').

I wonder how the Prime Directive applies here, or if it applies at all to full members of the Federation? Does UFC law trump Vulcan law on Vulcan soil? I believe the rule is, you can't join the UFC unless your laws and culture are within the standards, which also implies that any laws and culture of any UFC planet has to be recognized and respected.

The applicability of the prime directive is a bit unclear in cases like this. For instance, Worf tried to kill Kurn and even though it was within Klingon law and custom he was almost tried for murder. Perhaps that was because he wasn't on Kronos? Whereas other times characters are allowed to do pretty much whatever they want as long as it's within cultural bounds.

During TOS shuttles are treated as short range vessels, not something you can go cruising around the galaxy in.

TNG shuttles were as well, right? Until the invention of the Runabout? I can't think of any examples off the top of my head of regular TNG making inter-star system trips.

 

[Timo]

For instance, Worf tried to kill Kurn and even though it was within Klingon law and custom he was almost tried for murder.

But Worf was a Federation citizen, quite regardless of his species or skin color or religious views. That would mean having to obey Federation law, not Klingon. Picard gave him latitude a couple of times; Sisko never really did.

I can't think of any examples off the top of my head of regular TNG making inter-star system trips.

We could almost always claim that the shuttles were making trips from a star system to a starship that hovered nearby - perhaps because ships don't like having to come into the warp shallows around stars. So even when an episode opened with hero X coming from star system Y to return to his or her ship, we could argue the hop was a relatively short one. Hell, we never saw a TNG shuttle at warp speed, with the associated VFX! The same applies to TOS: shuttles did seem to have at least limited warp capabilities, but they never really flew from one star system to another. There could always have been a rendezvous with a starship as part of their flight plan, even in "Metamorphosis" - or a degree of desperation to the attempted flight, as in "The Menagerie" or "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield".

Only one very explicit exception comes to mind: In "Skin of Evil", a shuttle of unknown type was coming from a star system, was stated to be moving at warp speed, and crashed on a planet in a different system, thus showing clear interstellar warp capabilities. Yet we could argue this was a runabout-sized craft, since all we saw was the squashed rear part sticking out of a cliff... And this is really the only example of a shuttle explicitly stated to be at warp and moving from star system to star system, before runabouts or VOY.

Yet it's perfectly possible to argue that at least some of the TOS and TNG shuttles were capable of independent interstellar transit. There's no strong counterindication there, after all - just absence of evidence.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Cakes488]

I had thought of that too, about using a shuttle craft. But I just assumed it was too far given the time constraint.

What puzzles me is how Spock so easily "snaps out" of the whole thing after realizing the death of Kirk at his hands. Yet, the whole issue was the biological effects he was feeling from the mating drive. Ah... but no mating took place, as we saw. If quenching "the burning" did not require a physical sexual act, wouldn't it have been possible for Spock to meditate and just cleanse his own mind, sort of a self-hypnosis? They really failed on the consistency with this one, which kind of killed the whole episode for me. Never really liked it.

His snap out can be attributed to his half human side which helped to abate/offset the vulcan biologial need to mate...he also masterbated and that also helped alleviated the pressure.

 

[Timo]

Umm, remember that this was a 1960s TV show. They never dared mention sex, let alone masturbation, in the episode. Spock was all excited about "finding a mate", not about mating, as in copulating.

And strangely enough, none of the later, 1980s, 90s or 2000s episodes brought in the sex part, either. When a Vulcan male is hot and bothered about pon farr, he's hot and bothered about securing a mate for himself - not about having sex with that mate. It thus is analogous to the fighting between yer typical male animals, with lots of empty bolstering and only very seldom a real fight to the death - and little or no connection to actual fucking in the whole sad affair.

So it's actually pretty unlikely that Spock masturbated, or at least that he got any relief out of it. He wasn't desperate to spill his sperm, he was desperate to have a woman in his harem and other males at a safe distance.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Cakes488]

Umm, remember that this was a 1960s TV show. They never dared mention sex, let alone masturbation, in the episode. Spock was all excited about "finding a mate", not about mating, as in copulating.

And strangely enough, none of the later, 1980s, 90s or 2000s episodes brought in the sex part, either. When a Vulcan male is hot and bothered about pon farr, he's hot and bothered about securing a mate for himself - not about having sex with that mate. It thus is analogous to the fighting between yer typical male animals, with lots of empty bolstering and only very seldom a real fight to the death - and little or no connection to actual fucking in the whole sad affair.

So it's actually pretty unlikely that Spock masturbated, or at least that he got any relief out of it. He wasn't desperate to spill his sperm, he was desperate to have a woman in his harem and other males at a safe distance.

Timo Saloniemi

I see your point, and it's quite serious...Mine however is not....so....

If good ole spocky boy is half human and male then you can bet he masterbated.

 

[cooleddie74]

Because then you'd have a very short story.

Plus...don't most Starfleet shuttlecraft in TOS lack warp drive? They'd have to drop Spock off fairly close to Vulcan in order to make it the rest of the way in little or no time.

 

[Trevacious]

The compromise is that shuttlecraft, warp driven or not, don't have the range or speed to make them practical for making a trip to Vulcan in time to sate a Vulcan gone Amok.

 

[Gary7]

I see your point, and it's quite serious...Mine however is not....so....

If good ole spocky boy is half human and male then you can bet he masterbated.

Yeah, some people get so serious on this board, it's amazing.

There's definitely a half-human side at work somewhere... But if there was enough of it, you'd think it could counter the Pon Farr and save him from dying. That's what I don't get... he was going to die. And yet just having a little combat cured him. He could've hopped on into a holodeck, called up a Pon Farr scenario and gotten it over with.

Clever, that Roddenberry. The fingers are the "sexual conduits" of a Vulcan (and thus, no censorship issues for 'sexual contact'). They could have had Spock and T'Pring rub fingers, allow the "release" for Spock, then once he recovered from the rush, talk with her about the whole situation... The contact would have abated the Pon Farr urges for him. Then they could have shortened the ridiculous fight to give enough time for that. (Ridiculous because, as we've heard, a Vulcan has several times the strength of a human... Spock would have owned Kirk in no time).

 

[JustKate]

^ They didn't have holodecks during TOS. Or if they did, I've been missing something fairly important all these years.

And I don't want to think about ANYBODY masturbating. I know it happens but it is, thank God, none of my business. TMI! TMI! TMI!