The Kobayashi Maru Test

[Hartzilla2007]

Yes since it was all thanks to Kirk taking the initiative. Spock wanted to go to the Laurentian system to let Starfleet decide what to do while Nero destroyed Earth and goodness knows which other planets.

Well, considering that Kirk didn't have the transwarp beaming equation that was used to help save Earth, Spock's plan was the right course of action to take.

So Nero killing billions in the mean time is okay if they get enough ships to stop him possibly take a nasty beating to do it and have the 23rd century Romulans or the Klingons possibly take advantage of the situation and invade, good to know.

And when Kirk did take command of the Enterprise, it was Spock who suggested that he'd be the one to beam aboard the Narada, meld with one of the Romulans to find the location of Pike and where the black hole device was located. That wasn't Kirk's idea.

Yeah um how did that work out again?

Seriously, we know Kirk isn't perfect (neither the old nor the new one) but that's precisely one of the many reasons why MOST of us like him.

Old Kirk's flaws were dealt with, this NuKirk's flaws were not.

How exactly were old Kirk's flaws dealt with and NuKirk's not cause just saying it without examples doesn't mean shit.

 

[Sanae]

Just for clarity's sake, here's the part of the dialog starting from when Kirk was brainstorming with his crew to formulate a viable plan which would allow them to stop Nero from destroying Earth:

Kirk: Whatever the case, we need to get onboard Nero's ship undetected.
McCoy: We can't just get there guns blazing
Sulu: I'm telling you the maths...
Chekov: Keptin Kirk, Keptin Kirk...
Kirk: Yes, yes, Chekov what is it?
Chekov: Based on my calculations, I have projected that Nero will travel past Saturn. Like you said, we need to stay inwisible to Nero or he'll destroy us. If Mr Scott can get us to Warp 4 and if drop out of warp behind one of Saturn's moons, say, Titan, the magnetic distorsions from the planet's rings, will make us inwisible to Nero's sensors. From there, as long as the drill is not actiwated, we can beam onboard the enemy's ship.
Scott: Hey, that may work.
McCoy: Wait a minute kid, how old are you?
Chekov: I'm sewenteen sir.
McCoy: Oh good, he's seventeen.
Spock: Doctor, Mr Chekov's is correct, I can confirm his telemetry. If Mr Sulu is able to manouvre us into position, I can beam onboard Nero's ship, steal the black hole device and if possible, bring back Captain Pike.
Kirk: I won't allow you to do that, Mr Spock.
Spock: Romulans and Vulcans have common ancestry, our similarities will make it easier for me to access the ship's computer to locate the black hole device, also my mother was human, which makes Earth the only home I have left.
Kirk: Then I'm coming with you.

This will clear any doubts about who did or said what. I'll also add Kirk's first speech as Acting Captain, just in case:

Kirk: Attention crew of the Enterprise, this is James Kirk. Mr Spock has resigned commission and advanced me to Acting Captain. I know you're all expecting to regroup with the fleet, but I'm ordering a pursue course of the enemy ship. I want all departments to battle stations and ready in ten minutes. Either we're going down, or they are. Kirk Out.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Warned or not, the Enterprise would still have come out of warp at the same point in time where it had a whole minute to call red alert and raise shields before it came under attack by the Narada.

You're just making things up that sound good to you, in order to avoid addressing what actually happened:

All the other Starfleet ships were destroyed.

Kirk warned Pike. Pike gave new orders. Enterprise was saved.

Oh, and then Kirk saved Earth.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Warned or not, the Enterprise would still have come out of warp at the same point in time where it had a whole minute to call red alert and raise shields before it came under attack by the Narada.

You're just making things up that sound good to you, in order to avoid addressing what actually happened:

All the other Starfleet ships were destroyed.

Kirk warned Pike. Pike gave new orders. Enterprise was saved.

If not for Kirk, Pike would have blundered right into the ambush unprepared.

Oh, and then Kirk saved Earth.

 

[Qonos]

Er....if Kirk hadn't managed to get his point across, Capt. Pike wouldn't have ordered to go in Red Alert and raise the shields. Flying into the debris of 6 ex-starships with an unprepared crew and without the shields would have been VERY bad for the Enterprise's integrity.

So the little chunks of debris is far more dangerous than the Narada's torpedoes? When was that established?

You drive a car right. If you don't see the crumpled wreck up ahead of you because you are driving to fast does that not mean you're going to wreck too.

PHYSICS... Come one... Stop being an idiot or do you like being a tool because you have a hate on for a Character that IS and always has been an opinionated egotistical yet very intelligent hero archetype.

You really have to stop because you're so wrong everyone is laughing at you.

 

[Cakes488]

Er....if Kirk hadn't managed to get his point across, Capt. Pike wouldn't have ordered to go in Red Alert and raise the shields. Flying into the debris of 6 ex-starships with an unprepared crew and without the shields would have been VERY bad for the Enterprise's integrity.

So the little chunks of debris is far more dangerous than the Narada's torpedoes? When was that established?

You drive a car right. If you don't see the crumpled wreck up ahead of you because you are driving to fast does that not mean you're going to wreck too.

PHYSICS... Come one... Stop being an idiot or do you like being a tool because you have a hate on for a Character that IS and always has been an opinionated egotistical yet very intelligent hero archetype.

You really have to stop because you're so wrong everyone is laughing at you.

Sorry to jump in here (he he he not really) but I think you're getting mixed up betwixt William Shatner and Cappy Kirk. Cappy Kirk was not an egomaniac!!! Just as he's not a douchebag as someone so eloquently called him. Watch some TOS looking for these traits and you'll see that you are mistaken. I'm not sure if I agree with your assessment of him being opinionated...because he may have been ..but only to a point, he takes careful consideration of what his crew's input is...and he does that always. Oh and another thing...give Jeyl a little break here...he is fighting you all off tooth and nail and doing it alone...so y'all that are opposed to him need to fight fair.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

So the little chunks of debris is far more dangerous than the Narada's torpedoes? When was that established?

You drive a car right. If you don't see the crumpled wreck up ahead of you because you are driving to fast does that not mean you're going to wreck too.

PHYSICS... Come one... Stop being an idiot or do you like being a tool because you have a hate on for a Character that IS and always has been an opinionated egotistical yet very intelligent hero archetype.

You really have to stop because you're so wrong everyone is laughing at you.

Sorry to jump in here (he he he not really) but I think you're getting mixed up betwixt William Shatner and Cappy Kirk. Cappy Kirk was not an egomaniac!!! Just as he's not a douchebag as someone so eloquently called him. Watch some TOS looking for these traits and you'll see that you are mistaken. I'm not sure if I agree with your assessment of him being opinionated...because he may have been ..but only to a point, he takes careful consideration of what his crew's input is...and he does that always. Oh and another thing...give Jeyl a little break here...he is fighting you all off tooth and nail and doing it alone...so y'all that are opposed to him need to fight fair.

It would probably help Jeyl if he had an agrument that couldn't be torpedoed so easily.

 

[Qonos]

So the little chunks of debris is far more dangerous than the Narada's torpedoes? When was that established?

You drive a car right. If you don't see the crumpled wreck up ahead of you because you are driving to fast does that not mean you're going to wreck too.

PHYSICS... Come one... Stop being an idiot or do you like being a tool because you have a hate on for a Character that IS and always has been an opinionated egotistical yet very intelligent hero archetype.

You really have to stop because you're so wrong everyone is laughing at you.

Sorry to jump in here (he he he not really) but I think you're getting mixed up betwixt William Shatner and Cappy Kirk. Cappy Kirk was not an egomaniac!!! Just as he's not a douchebag as someone so eloquently called him. Watch some TOS looking for these traits and you'll see that you are mistaken. I'm not sure if I agree with your assessment of him being opinionated...because he may have been ..but only to a point, he takes careful consideration of what his crew's input is...and he does that always. Oh and another thing...give Jeyl a little break here...he is fighting you all off tooth and nail and doing it alone...so y'all that are opposed to him need to fight fair.

I have watched every episode of TOS several times.

You do realize the best people to lead are Egotists because they have confidence in themselves. And we aren't using Egotistical in it's negative connotation here. There are a lot of good people who do great things and are nice people who are egotistical. Kirk is Egotistical and there were times when he was a douche in Trek (Like dealing with the Station Manager in Trouble with Tribbles he said some douchy things) it all leads back to perception and the fact that your perceptions build YOUR personal reality. I know several of my friends who are Egotistical Asses, but they are still deep down nice people who try and do the right things, but when pushed will allow that DEMON to come out. Kirk as he is in the movie hasn't learned what the Prime Kirk had and that was when to shut off his Ego (he begins to get there near the end of the movie by listening to Checkov's idea so the stage of his maturation is set) but there is that Egotistical side and that side that when the need calls for the douchebag comes out.

Jeyl is just continuing on with his obtuse thinking because he WANTS to hate this new version of Kirk which is just a younger LESS mature, not as well seasoned version of the original Kirk. I'm not going with actors here I'm talking about Character.

It's kind of a Douch move to let your best friend think he's killed you until he begins to say he's going to turn himself in to the authorities like Kirk did to Spock in Amok Time.

Meant as a joke, but if I had a friend who let me think I killed him and then says something while I'm getting ready to call the cops to turn my self in.. Yeah I'd call him a douche.

I think those two referances will suffice...

Trouble with Tribbles
Amok Time.

 

[Jeyl]

Jeyl is just continuing on with his obtuse thinking because he WANTS to hate this new version of Kirk which is just a younger LESS mature, not as well seasoned version of the original Kirk.

So I should like this Kirk just as much as the other Kirk because he's only younger, dumber, more arrogant and rude? I had no idea it was that easy.

 

[M'Sharak]

Er....if Kirk hadn't managed to get his point across, Capt. Pike wouldn't have ordered to go in Red Alert and raise the shields. Flying into the debris of 6 ex-starships with an unprepared crew and without the shields would have been VERY bad for the Enterprise's integrity.

So the little chunks of debris is far more dangerous than the Narada's torpedoes? When was that established?

You drive a car right. If you don't see the crumpled wreck up ahead of you because you are driving to fast does that not mean you're going to wreck too.

PHYSICS... Come one... Stop being an idiot or do you like being a tool because you have a hate on for a Character that IS and always has been an opinionated egotistical yet very intelligent hero archetype.

You really have to stop because you're so wrong everyone is laughing at you.

All of this could have been said better without using "idiot" or "tool". Maybe words like that fly unquestioned at DM.net, but they're discouraged here; these don't help your argument, so why not dispense with them? Attack the post, not the poster.

 

[Qonos]

So the little chunks of debris is far more dangerous than the Narada's torpedoes? When was that established?

You drive a car right. If you don't see the crumpled wreck up ahead of you because you are driving to fast does that not mean you're going to wreck too.

PHYSICS... Come one... Stop being an idiot or do you like being a tool because you have a hate on for a Character that IS and always has been an opinionated egotistical yet very intelligent hero archetype.

You really have to stop because you're so wrong everyone is laughing at you.

All of this could have been said better without using "idiot" or "tool". Maybe words like that fly unquestioned at DM.net, but they're discouraged here; these don't help your argument, so why not dispense with them? Attack the post, not the poster.

You know what forget it no matter what point I make I'm wrong because we'd rather be PC here than real.

 

[Ovation]

Jeyl is just continuing on with his obtuse thinking because he WANTS to hate this new version of Kirk which is just a younger LESS mature, not as well seasoned version of the original Kirk.

So I should like this Kirk just as much as the other Kirk because he's only younger, dumber, more arrogant and rude? I had no idea it was that easy.

You are under no obligation to like the new Kirk. However, you should not hold a younger, less mature, less experienced version with a worse upbringing to higher standards than the version from 40+ years ago who was nearly a decade older chronologically. That's not very logical.

 

[SalvorHardin]

Jeyl is just continuing on with his obtuse thinking because he WANTS to hate this new version of Kirk which is just a younger LESS mature, not as well seasoned version of the original Kirk.

So I should like this Kirk just as much as the other Kirk because he's only younger, dumber, more arrogant and rude? I had no idea it was that easy.

You are under no obligation to like the new Kirk. However, you should not hold a younger, less mature, less experienced version with a worse upbringing to higher standards than the version from 40+ years ago who was nearly a decade older chronologically. That's not very logical.

And a version that had countless hours to develop on screen and other forms. Not just 2 hours.

 

[Qonos]

Jeyl is just continuing on with his obtuse thinking because he WANTS to hate this new version of Kirk which is just a younger LESS mature, not as well seasoned version of the original Kirk.

So I should like this Kirk just as much as the other Kirk because he's only younger, dumber, more arrogant and rude? I had no idea it was that easy.

Well I don't see what's to hate IT'S KIRK. It's the SAME Character. Just younger. He's obviously not Dumber because he's the same genius he was in TOS, he accomplished the same feat with the KM Test. I think I can forgive the character for being a little Jaded because the dad he never knew would have been a better role model to him than the step-dad he got (Nature vs Nurture) which would have probably toned him down a bit with his rudeness. The psychology of the character and why he's acting the way he's acting is right there staring you in the face, though you chose to ignore it because he groped Uhura (which I believe is one of the points you used for your dislike), said and did some douchy things (which Prime Kirk didn't say douchy things, oh wait I pointed out some Prime Kirk Douchiness)
Your basis for your hate boils down to "He's not KIRK" when he most obviously IS KIRK. Your hate is misplace just for the sake of hate because the character had some changed to him, which make sense when your father is killed, you grow up with a dick step-dad (maybe we needed a little more expose into his home life) and you feel like you don't belong.

 

[Lindley]

He is trying to prevent the ship from going into a trap that, without his warning, would have meant certain doom (it is the fact he realizes this that saves the Enterprise).

How? The Enterprise didn't come under attack by the Narada the moment they came out of Warp. They spent at least a whole minute in the debris field before the Narada open fired. You think the Enterprise crew would be that dumb not to go to red alert the second they saw all their fellow ships destroyed?

Hindsight isn't an appropriate argument for whether a given action is correct or necessary at the time. Whether the Enterprise would have survived or not without Kirk's actions is irrelevant.

Given that he had information which gave him an insight into the situation that Pike lacked, it was Kirk's duty to do everything possible to ensure the ship was prepared for the coming engagement. And he did.

 

[M'Sharak]

You drive a car right. If you don't see the crumpled wreck up ahead of you because you are driving to fast does that not mean you're going to wreck too.

PHYSICS... Come one... Stop being an idiot or do you like being a tool because you have a hate on for a Character that IS and always has been an opinionated egotistical yet very intelligent hero archetype.

You really have to stop because you're so wrong everyone is laughing at you.

All of this could have been said better without using "idiot" or "tool". Maybe words like that fly unquestioned at DM.net, but they're discouraged here; these don't help your argument, so why not dispense with them? Attack the post, not the poster.

You know what forget it no matter what point I make I'm wrong because we'd rather be PC here than real.

"PC" is a nebulous concept at best, and not one I find terribly useful as a yardstick. What we do have at TrekBBS (and what you agreed to follow when you registered, by the way) are a few simple rules. This is one of them:

Obviously, you cannot insult other people. You may disagree with someone's opinion, but you may not attack the person themselves for posting that opinion. Don't respond to a flame with a flame. You cannot flame people and then claim to have been just defending yourself. If you have a complaint, notify a moderator rather than responding yourself.

The portion I've underlined here applies to the portion or your post which I've similarly underlined. It's really not a hard one to understand or to comply with. If by "be real" you mean "hold yourself to be too cool for a few simple rules designed to make posting here a more pleasant experience for everyone," well then, we can do it that way, but I'd rather not. I suspect it's entirely possible to be as real as you like while operating within the rules, because lots of people do just that every day and have done so for years without feeling the least bit inconvenienced.

Say whatever you like about what someone else said. Just don't flame the person for saying it. It's simple, really.

 

[Jeyl]

Well I don't see what's to hate IT'S KIRK. It's the SAME Character.

That's the thing. Just because you label him as KIRK doesn't mean I have to like him. I don't look at this films faults and push them aside by saying "it's STAR TREK!", because that's vague, disingenuous and up for debate.

 

[Qonos]

Actually No it being Star Trek is NOT up for Debate because as long as Paramount calls it Star Trek, IT'S STAR TREK...

Hence why I didn't Rail against Enterprise as NOT BEING TREK.. It just wasn't GOOD Trek to me.

This man is KIRK, you might not find him to be a Good Kirk, but he's still Kirk.

 

[Jeyl]

How exactly were old Kirk's flaws dealt with and NuKirk's not cause just saying it without examples doesn't mean shit.

Star Trek 2 portrays Kirk as a person who's over confident and thinks of himself as the kind of guy who knows how to handle any situation, like cheating on the Kobayashi Maru test to show that he doesn't believe in the no-win scenario.

His flaw of over-confidence is put to the test when the Enterprise encounters the Reliant under the command of Khan. Lt. Saavik suggests that they follow regulations since the vessel isn't responding to any communications, but Kirk flat out ignores her. And what happens next? The Enterprise comes under attack and people are killed. And how does he react to this? Humiliated and defeated. Does he save the day by being two steps ahead of everyone else? No. He took a bet on hoping Khan didn't know about the prefix code.

And than we have the loss of Spock. Kirk never believe in the no-win scenario until Khan activated the Genesis device. With the warp drive out and only minutes away from detonation, Kirk was truly helpless to do anything. And after Spock's funeral, Kirk comes to the realization that everything he had believed in was useless for what he's been through. His son even tells him that some of his throw-away comments might actually have more meaning to Kirk's issues than even Kirk realized. That's good stuff.

NuKirk? His development is limited to something that involves destiny. I don't know and I don't care.

Note that I was only talking about Kirk from his portrayal in Star Trek 2 and not from the entire franchise. So that's one movie compared to one movie's worth of character development. Now, which does the better job? Well, Star Trek 2 doesn't rely on fate or destiny so that's a plus already.

 

[Jeyl]

Actually No it being Star Trek is NOT up for Debate because as long as Paramount calls it Star Trek, IT'S STAR TREK...

Well, if all it takes is the official word of STAR TREK, why is canon an issue?

This man is KIRK, you might not find him to be a Good Kirk, but he's still Kirk.

George Clooney was Batman but you don't see anyone defending his portrayal of the character for just being Batman.