The Kobayashi Maru Test

[Qonos]

Actually No it being Star Trek is NOT up for Debate because as long as Paramount calls it Star Trek, IT'S STAR TREK...

Well, if all it takes is the official word of STAR TREK, why is canon an issue?

This man is KIRK, you might not find him to be a Good Kirk, but he's still Kirk.

George Clooney was Batman but you don't see anyone defending his portrayal of the character for just being Batman.

Clooney is not the reason I hate THAT movie


Bane: BOMB, BOMB.....

When they take a character who is equal to the main hero and make him a musclebound simpleton.... Oooh the rage.

Clooney's batman was no worse than Adam West's...

What Schumaker did the Bane though is unforgivable.

This is the man who BROKE the Bat. And he ends up dumber than Special Ed from Crank Yankers.

Pine's Kirk is still recognizable as Kirk, he's still written as a brilliant man who though having developed in a slightly different timeline is still a great man and a good leader.

I'm sorry you didn't see it, but it was there.

 

[Qonos]

How exactly were old Kirk's flaws dealt with and NuKirk's not cause just saying it without examples doesn't mean shit.

Star Trek 2 portrays Kirk as a person who's over confident and thinks of himself as the kind of guy who knows how to handle any situation, like cheating on the Kobayashi Maru test to show that he doesn't believe in the no-win scenario.

His flaw of over-confidence is put to the test when the Enterprise encounters the Reliant under the command of Khan. Lt. Saavik suggests that they follow regulations since the vessel isn't responding to any communications, but Kirk flat out ignores her. And what happens next? The Enterprise comes under attack and people are killed. And how does he react to this? Humiliated and defeated. Does he save the day by being two steps ahead of everyone else? No. He took a bet on hoping Khan didn't know about the prefix code.

And than we have the loss of Spock. Kirk never believe in the no-win scenario until Khan activated the Genesis device. With the warp drive out and only minutes away from detonation, Kirk was truly helpless to do anything. And after Spock's funeral, Kirk comes to the realization that everything he had believed in was useless for what he's been through. His son even tells him that some of his throw-away comments might actually have more meaning to Kirk's issues than even Kirk realized. That's good stuff.

NuKirk? His development is limited to something that involves destiny. I don't know and I don't care.

Note that I was only talking about Kirk from his portrayal in Star Trek 2 and not from the entire franchise. So that's one movie compared to one movie's worth of character development. Now, which does the better job? Well, Star Trek 2 doesn't rely on fate or destiny so that's a plus already.

But yet this was after YEARS of character building where Kirk NEVER had to deal with the concequences of his actions. He never had any of his decisions come back and bite him in the ass. Until Khan. Here in the new movie we see the beginning of the character. The reasons why he was over confident a man who hasn't had years of starfleet service. A man who's real father was torn from him before he ever had a chance to learn anything from him. This wasn't a Kirk who was formed by Destiny. It was a Kirk who was formed by another intervention. Nero KILLED his father. He grew up with out him, and his life DIDN'T goes as plotted. If this had all been Straight Destiny it wouldn't have mattered if his father died. He would have already been in Starfleet and Pike would have never met him in the bar in Iowa before the completion of the Enterprise, because the Enterprise would have already been completed and not delayed. Pike would have been in the middle of a five year mission and Kirk would have been on the Farragut. Spock only says it Kirk's place to be the Captain of the Enterprise because he's trying to fix as much as possible a time line he's partially responsible for messing up by failing to save Romulus and causing a crazy Romulan to fall through a black hole into the past, who by the way Killed Kirk's real dad.

You didn't pay attention to the story at all did you?

 

[Sanae]

Okay, Jeyl. I think your dilemma pretty much has two possible solutions:

1) You get your DVD sets of TOS out and watch those as a therapy to forget about the new Star Trek movie and its new cast thus doing your best to pretend that movie never actually happened, or;

2) You can wait till the next movie comes out. You then see if you can bring yourself to accept this new Kirk after he's had another two hours to convince you that he IS the Captain James T. Kirk. If he fails, then go back to step 1.

Till then, you may want to avoid this whole section of the forums and focus on the TOS one where you can discuss the Kirk as portrayed by Mr William Shatner. Just a friendly suggestion.

And, to get this thread back on topic, in the novelization, Kirk admits to Spock that he could hack into the programming of the KM because Gaila talks in her sleep. I don't know why but I'm under the impression that some people here think that Kirk was using Gaila to get information when it's not the case, I think Kirk slept with her, then heard her talk in her sleep about her job and that gave him the idea to reprogram the scenario. I think this makes more sense, at least to me.

 

[Jeyl]

You didn't pay attention to the story at all did you?

More than you did in paying attention to my post. I wasn't comparing the two Kirks based on their experience and several years of history. I was comparing them to how well their movie's story line develops their characters. How and why this NuKirk is different from the other Kirk is irrelevant in trying to justify the lack of good story telling.

 

[Jeyl]

You can wait till the next movie comes out. You then see if you can bring yourself to accept this new Kirk after he's had another two hours to convince you that he IS the Captain James T. Kirk. If he fails, then go back to step 1.

Oh, I have accepted that this is Kirk. I just fail to understand why you think that I should like him because of that fact alone.

in the novelization, Kirk admits to Spock that he could hack into the programming of the KM because Gaila talks in her sleep.

That line would have been slightly funny if it wasn't for the fact that Gaila was murdered earlier in the story. Way to go Kirk. Someone you were sleeping with dies so let's joke about how she talks in her sleep.

 

[SalvorHardin]

You can wait till the next movie comes out. You then see if you can bring yourself to accept this new Kirk after he's had another two hours to convince you that he IS the Captain James T. Kirk. If he fails, then go back to step 1.

Oh, I have accepted that this is Kirk. I just fail to understand why you think that I should like him because of just that fact alone.

in the novelization, Kirk admits to Spock that he could hack into the programming of the KM because Gaila talks in her sleep.

That line would have been slightly funny if it wasn't for the fact that Gaila was murdered earlier in the story. Way to go Kirk. Someone you were sleeping with dies so let's joke about how she talks in her sleep.

Where did Sanae say that Kirk was joking or making fun about it ?
He said that Kirk admits it. He could have tears in his eyes while talking to Spock admitting it for all I know.

I haven't read the novel but if you have and know more, please share.

 

[Sanae]

in the novelization, Kirk admits to Spock that he could hack into the programming of the KM because Gaila talks in her sleep.

That line would have been slightly funny if it wasn't for the fact that Gaila was murdered earlier in the story. Way to go Kirk. Someone you were sleeping with dies so let's joke about how she talks in her sleep.

It wasn't meant to be funny. Spock asked him how he manged to hack into his programming and Kirk told him that Gaila talked in her sleep. Absolutely NOTHING in the entire exchange (and I have the book opened in that very page) suggests Kirk was anything but monotone in giving his reply.

EDIT:

Star Trek - Novelization
pp 273 - 274
The Enterprise began to move. Slowly at first, but without hesitation and with the subtle intimation of purpose that would define her own future. As it slipped clear of the dock, Spock remained by Kirk's side.
"Before assuming my formal duties, I must know one thing. The Kobayashi Maru - how did you break the encryption code?"
Looking up at his friend, Kirk was finally unable to repress a smile that harkened back to an earlier time. To a simpler, younger, far more innocent time. He lowered his voice conspiratorially.
"Orion women talk in their sleep."
Spock considered carefully before responding. "I suppose I may never understand cheating."
Kirk nodded slightly. "Give it...time."

Again, I think you've repeatedly made your point that you plainly refuse to see anything positive in the new Kirk so, I'm probably just wasting my time here.

 

[Jeyl]

Looking up at his friend, Kirk was finally unable to repress a smile that harkened back to an earlier time. To a simpler, younger, far more innocent time. He lowered his voice conspiratorially.
"Orion women talk in their sleep."

He says that with a 'smile'. That's all I need to know.

 

[SalvorHardin]

Looking up at his friend, Kirk was finally unable to repress a smile that harkened back to an earlier time. To a simpler, younger, far more innocent time. He lowered his voice conspiratorially.
"Orion women talk in their sleep."

He says that with a 'smile'. That's all I need to know.

Yes... because people never look back at happy, funny, good times with dead friends or lovers remembering and smiling.

 

[Sanae]

Funnily enough, I interpreted the whole thing as Kirk feeling melancholy about those 'more simpler, younger, far more innocent times'. The smile I pictured on his face was sad, rather than a cheerful one. Plus, the only adjective in the whole thing is 'conspirational' which doesn't necessarily mean he was trying to be funny. But, hey, I absolutely love the new Kirk so I'm as bias about him as you very obviously are against him.

 

[Jeyl]

. But, hey, I absolutely love the new Kirk so I'm as bias about him as you very obviously are against him.

I'm not against him. I just don't like him.

 

[Sanae]

. But, hey, I absolutely love the new Kirk so I'm as bias about him as you very obviously are against him.

I'm not against him. I just don't like him.

Oh, that much was perfectly clear to us all.

Now, getting (again) back on topic, does anyone think that after Spock explained to everyone in the trial about the lesson the KM test was supposed to teach, that Starfleet will have to come up with some alternative? I mean, now that the students know what's expected of them, the test itself no longer serves its purpose, does it?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

in the novelization, Kirk admits to Spock that he could hack into the programming of the KM because Gaila talks in her sleep.

That line would have been slightly funny if it wasn't for the fact that Gaila was murdered earlier in the story. Way to go Kirk. Someone you were sleeping with dies so let's joke about how she talks in her sleep.

You do know your talking about the guy who was joking about Spock looking like Satan after 3 redshirts bit the dust, and was joking about his son the doctor aka Nomad the psycho prob who killed billions and fried Uhura's brain.

 

[JohanKoch]

I agree. To go from a penalty for cheating to a commendation for original thinking would need a lot more thought behind how and why this was done. As it was portrayed, it seemed a rather juvenile act of rebellion - not a defining stand.

Count me as another one who really didn't like the Kobyashi Maru scene at all. Kirk sitting there, with the world's most smug expression on his face, really didn't go over well, especially since one of the (few) problems I have with the film is how unbearably smug he was the rest of the time.

Next time I see it I'll try to take the charitable interpretation. That is, he was doing all that as a way of letting his instructors know he had cheated. I find it hard to accept that explanation, though, when taken in light of his behaviour in the rest of the film. From the moment we see Kirk (at least as an adult) to the last frame of the film, his most annoying quality is his sense of entitlement.

I didn't get the sense that he cheated at the test because he did not believe in a no-win scenario. It seems he cheated because he felt he deserved to win, even if he hadn't earned it.

Edit: And let me also say that, while I never really warmed to the rather arrogant Kirk with a sense of entitlement that we got in the film, it's perfectly possible that what we saw was an accurate representation of what "our" Kirk really was like as a youth. That doesn't mean I really like seeing "frat boy Kirk", but at the same time I could believe that Shatner's Kirk was a lot like this before maturing. Hopefully, by the time the next film comes out he will have matured a little more...

 

[Mr. Wilde]

Warned or not, the Enterprise would still have come out of warp at the same point in time where it had a whole minute to call red alert and raise shields before it came under attack by the Narada.

You're just making things up that sound good to you, in order to avoid addressing what actually happened:

All the other Starfleet ships were destroyed.

Kirk warned Pike. Pike gave new orders. Enterprise was saved.

Oh, and then Kirk saved Earth.

I think Jeyl made a valid point.

Cut out the entire discussion between Kirk and Pike on the bridge. The Enterprise leaves warp at the very same time and place and runs into the debris. Everyone instantly gets something bad happened and now all Pike has to say is "Evasive maneuvers, red alert, shields up!" And only half a minute later they would encounter the Narada, with shields up and on red alert, and the rest would happen just as it did in the movie.

So Kirk's warning and discussion really didn't make any difference to the situation at all.

 

[Ovation]

Warned or not, the Enterprise would still have come out of warp at the same point in time where it had a whole minute to call red alert and raise shields before it came under attack by the Narada.

You're just making things up that sound good to you, in order to avoid addressing what actually happened:

All the other Starfleet ships were destroyed.

Kirk warned Pike. Pike gave new orders. Enterprise was saved.

Oh, and then Kirk saved Earth.

I think Jeyl made a valid point.

Cut out the entire discussion between Kirk and Pike on the bridge. The Enterprise leaves warp at the very same time and place and runs into the debris. Everyone instantly gets something bad happened and now all Pike has to say is "Evasive maneuvers, red alert, shields up!" And only half a minute later they would encounter the Narada, with shields up and on red alert, and the rest would happen just as it did in the movie.

So Kirk's warning and discussion really didn't make any difference to the situation at all.

Hindsight is a terrible justification for a criticism of a decision made by people without its benefit. The outcome is irrelevant--from the point of view of the characters, Kirk's pitch to Pike changed the conditions under which the Enterprise arrived at the scene to a more appropriate state of alertness.

 

[Ovation]

Looking up at his friend, Kirk was finally unable to repress a smile that harkened back to an earlier time. To a simpler, younger, far more innocent time. He lowered his voice conspiratorially.
"Orion women talk in their sleep."

He says that with a 'smile'. That's all I need to know.

Oh?

You do know your talking about the guy who was joking about Spock looking like Satan after 3 redshirts bit the dust, and was joking about his son the doctor aka Nomad the psycho prob who killed billions and fried Uhura's brain.

I take it, Jeyl, that you have always hated Kirk, then? No? Rather hypocritical of you then, given the reasons you've cited for your dislike.

 

[Jeyl]

I take it, Jeyl, that you have always hated Kirk, then? No? Rather hypocritical of you then, given the reasons you've cited for your dislike.

I like how your bolding my name up. Makes it look more attractive and catchy. Ty.

But in regards to that post, oh yes. There are moments where I go "Oh, come on! Are you serious?" to the old Kirk. One moment I never liked was when he shoo'd Uhura from doing her job when she was deciphering the morse code that the Botony Bay was transmitting. But there was that moment when he shouted at her in The Naked Time and after the two looked at each other realizing that this isn't the way they're supposed to act, he apologized and reassured her.

Did the NuKirk apologize after he accidently grabbed Uhura's chest in the bar? Naw. He relished the moment.

 

[SilentP]

Did the NuKirk apologize after he accidently grabbed Uhura's chest in the bar? Naw. He relished the moment.

Just a reminder, NuKirk was pissed off his face at the time. A few blows to the head, while intoxicated, while still feeling a tad horny towards her isn't likely to be leaving him with much in the way of sensibilities.

As to apologising? Well, between being pounded on constantly a few seconds later, and the fact all the cadets were shooed off a bit after that by Pike, so he didn't get a chance to apologise then. Apologising after that night? It probably didn't occur to him to apologise for something that he probably didn't see as deliberate. I would have read his smile in that split second as being a cheeky smile, rather than a smile.

 

[Ovation]

I take it, Jeyl, that you have always hated Kirk, then? No? Rather hypocritical of you then, given the reasons you've cited for your dislike.

I like how your bolding my name up. Makes it look more attractive and catchy. Ty.

But in regards to that post, oh yes. There are moments where I go "Oh, come on! Are you serious?" to the old Kirk. One moment I never liked was when he shoo'd Uhura from doing her job when she was deciphering the morse code that the Botony Bay was transmitting. But there was that moment when he shouted at her in The Naked Time and after the two looked at each other realizing that this isn't the way they're supposed to act, he apologized and reassured her.

Did the NuKirk apologize after he accidently grabbed Uhura's chest in the bar? Naw. He relished the moment.

He's drunk, 10 years younger (thus less mature), gets the shit kicked out of him and has had a less than stellar upbringing that makes his manners likely less well developed. Stop expecting the new Kirk to act as polished as an older, wiser, more experienced version who had a better upbringing. It's an absurd standard to hold.