And the cycle repeats.
Final Trailer!
- Thread starter NCC-73515
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you know what I hate…that everyone that thinks Disco and SNW had kept the aesthetic look and feel of TOS gets painted with the same brush.
I think they should have kept the look of The Cage or at the very least S1 of TOS. But that doesn’t keep me from enjoying Disco S3-4 or SNW.
I hate being cast as some kind of traditionalist whack job just because I think they should have let the original 1701 look like the original 1701 as it appeared for 50 years. Even when I’ve said I more or less like the design of the Discoprise.
Then you're probably not who Lord Garth is talking about.
In my experience, the people referred, are those who complain endlessly about those shows not being "real Trek*" and put more value in things like Axanar, or Star Trek Continues due to aesthetics.
*trademark pending
The biggest thing I see with sections of this fandom struggling with is the concept of Retoactive Continuity. Even between 1989 and 2001 technology for special effects and what we could do had come on by leaps and bounds. We'd gone from bulky CRT TVs and monitors to the first of the thin, sleek and light LCD Monitors which in the year Enterprise aired had finally become affordable to the average Joe.
In just a decade or so's time we'd start to get the wave of touch sceen mobile phones which had the power of a medium price laptop.
Trek of some flavour had been running nearly non-stop for an astonishing 12 years by this point, and I think a large fandom formed that had become very comfortable to the storylines, storytelling method, visuals etc.
I also don't think the idea of the "retcon" was particularly deep as a cultural concept or literary device as it may be today. It's first reference is only 1973 and I don't think it really hit the main cultural zeitgeist until freely available to the internet mainstream in like the 2010s.
So when they try to launch their new Trek show (that they avoiding even calling Star Trek at first) just six months after Voyager finally ended... All of a sudden there were things wrong with the established cannon and many people didn't understand the concept you can change established facts carefully or reinterpret them.
On top of that, Enterprise came at a time and a full season of hope for the future and mankind being all happy and united... after we'd watched a bunch of fanatics do the very opposite of that less than a month prior.
So the casual audience who they were hoping would get into Trek via this Scott Bakula led show full of optimism... were probably more in the mood of a retelling of Heinlen's Starship Troopers.
Those Loyal fans? Had had even the identity of their franchise effectively stripped from them. No Xindi Arc, nor hastily slapping the Branding back on for the final 2 seasons was probably going to save it.
But, again, Enterprise wound up with its time in the Sun thanks to streaming services, where its own continuity, plot, and references could be far better appreciated, and so a new wave of fans and people appreciating the show for its own merits.
I'll always welcome that. Such a good book.
I have other things I need to do. So I'll cut straight to it.
This. Thank you, fireproof78.
For the PIC Season 3 trailer, I need to re-watch it. It's been two days. And instead of talking about it, we've talked about baggage. And yes, it is baggage. Later on, after I get a chance to re-watch it, I'm interested in talking about (get this!) the actual trailer.
I expected TNG's Star Trek VI. That's what was advertised to me.
I don't think the PIC Season 3 trailer was as exciting as this, but I have a better feeling about PIC S3 than I did PIC S2. And I have a better feeling about PIC S3 than I did about three out of four TNG Movies (FC being the sole exception).
I don't know if I'll think PIC Season 3 is as good as or better than PIC Season 1, but I did like the PIC Season 1 trailer better. Here's what that one was.
The PIC Season 3 trailer, from what I got of it, was more "This is a Late Sequel!", which it is. It feels like a late-sequel of the types that come out these days. Nothing to get (mock-)outraged about.
This. Thank you, fireproof78.
For the PIC Season 3 trailer, I need to re-watch it. It's been two days. And instead of talking about it, we've talked about baggage. And yes, it is baggage. Later on, after I get a chance to re-watch it, I'm interested in talking about (get this!) the actual trailer.
I expected TNG's Star Trek VI. That's what was advertised to me.
I don't think the PIC Season 3 trailer was as exciting as this, but I have a better feeling about PIC S3 than I did PIC S2. And I have a better feeling about PIC S3 than I did about three out of four TNG Movies (FC being the sole exception).
I don't know if I'll think PIC Season 3 is as good as or better than PIC Season 1, but I did like the PIC Season 1 trailer better. Here's what that one was.
The PIC Season 3 trailer, from what I got of it, was more "This is a Late Sequel!", which it is. It feels like a late-sequel of the types that come out these days. Nothing to get (mock-)outraged about.
I just want Raffi and the Gang to solve the mystery of the dissappearing lighting technicians.
Until then I shall remain mock outraged.
Thank you for reminding me of the Season 1 trailer. I really liked that trailer because while there was action, it felt really much all character for the most part. This season 3 trailer screamed all action to me and didn't really provide much as I would expect a final trailer to do. I hope it is good and I'm not trying to take away anyone's enjoyment of the show. I can only speak personally, and for me, they have a lot of work to do to get back into my good graces after Season 2. I hope they are successful and Picard goes out in a blaze of glory.
Hello. I want to start this first by saying you've been an interesting person to talk with off and on about NuTrek for the last six months or so. Assuming someone can like or dislike Discovery in good faith makes discussion easier. And thank you for not trying to sea lion me.
I got into Star Trek (TNG) in the early 90s when I was like... 6? Wow. So I readily admit for me there's the childhood nostalgia angle at play when I approach it. But, not counting canceled too soon shows (or shows like Babylon 5 that moved around too much timeslot and preemption wise that I never had a real foothold into) I was also into the Power Rangers, the X-Men and Spiderman animated shows, The Simpsons, Sliders, SeaQuest, the Lois & Clark Superman, and once I was old enough, The X-Files...
Now, I couldn't tell you anything about the Power Rangers post 1995, and while I've seen several X-Men and Spiderman films, I never got into the comics or became a hardcore Marvel fan. The Simpsons is somehow still on the air, but I must have dipped out when Fox canceled Family Guy for the first time. Long suffering Sliders fans will know about the brutal ouster of Tracy Torme in season 3 and what David Peckinpah did in his place, under both Fox and the Sci-Fi channel. SeaQuest and Lois & Clark also had executive interference and showrunner changeover, but didn't hit the high quality watermark of Sliders' first two seasons so revisting those would be pure nostalgia.
But I'm still a Star Trek fan and, to a much lesser extent, The X-Files. Why? Their overall quality over multiple seasons.
Granted, The X-Files ran for far too long. The Mythology had no underlying plan. Actors left. The explanation for what ultimately happed to Mulder's sister. The supersoldier arc. The revival seasons causing far more problems than good. While flawed, the series still has many outstanding episodes that are worth rewatching and hold up. Hell, Vince Gilligan got his start on the show.
TNG, DS9, and VGR, while being products of a time where an assembly line process churned out 26 episodes a year, all hold up -- in a cohesive way. Yes, there are many mediocre episodes. And yes, trying to get VGR to keep track of dead crewmembers, the shuttles, and if they did make a 20,000 light year jump how did someone from season 3 catch up with them is an exercise in frustration (but, a key point--- VGR's problems are VGR's problems... Its own inconsistencies don't create problems for other shows). But once you get past very early TNG, there are next to no god-awful episodes. And only "Threshold" made me turn off the TV in protest. Yes, quality is subjective. But, taken as a whole given there are 500+ episodes, the Berman Trek run is pretty high quality considering that scale. And that scale gives added weight to the content as you have a lot to build off of and appreciate as arcs develop over the years across multiple series.
By 1990's standards, all three are awesome or at the very least great. But, now to bring in continuity. Continuity can make even a bad episode good, or a good episode great. Let's look at TNG season 1. "Haven", "Hide and Q", and "Datalore" are all pretty bad, but also introduce or continue recurring characters. The side other... DS9... "Blood Oath", "Crossover", and "Trials and Tribble-ations" are extra awesome for the TOS follow ups.
So for me, quality and canon/continuity are interdependent, and when done right, "plus" the content with gravity of history and having future import.
And, Michael Piller had an eye for talent. Ira Steven Behr, Ronald D Moore, Rene Echevarria, love him or hate him Brannon Braga, Naren Shankar, Joe Menosky, Robert Hewitt Wolfe... Even less successful talent Kenneth Biller created and showran multiple shows.
Wait, you didn't really mention... TOS. Well, TOS for me was always something I read about in the Star Trek Chronology or the library -- a history and backstory, but not something easily accessible to be experienced. I grew up in a smaller TV market in California, and the TV station with the TOS rights rarely aired it, so at this time I'd maybe only seen a third of it. Hell, one crazy childhood memory is having my dad stop at a Star Trek convention during a car trip so I could buy "Space Seed" on VHS and see how Khan was introduced!
They really screwed up on the Klingons and the spore drive, but I was mostly able to do that with early Discovery, thinking the mess they created could also be fixed by them. Up until the Lorca reveal, I kinda enjoyed watching it on its own terms. From that until the Talos IV episode it at least had elements worth watching. But post Talos IV, it went off a deep cliff... which is when Alex Kurtzman and Michelle Paradise taking control became fully evident. Early Discovery had great writers... I never got into Heroes, but that show's first season was well received. Then Bryan Fuller's people were swapped out with the Revenge people. A drop off, and even they were replaced, and the series became unwatchable for me.
SNW falls into the uncanny valley of being both too close and too different from what came before. It being "closer to the spirit of Star Trek" or what have you actually makes it far more difficult for me to watch with prior knowledge of the franchise.
To give a real life hypothetical... Imagine you lived for several years in, say, Brazil, and really came to know the culture, how people would react in different social situations, the geography. And you have a TV show set in Brazil. The showrunners are a Portuguese, a Mexican, and an Argentinian, and they have a Brazilians along as low level writers and consultants that are sometimes listened to and other times overridden because of... whatever. Some things they manage to get right, others they massively mess up. Regional accents in the wrong places. Getting the football fan thing all wrong. Confusing the culture on the coast with that of the interior. What they think of as foreshadowing half the times turns into accidental red herrings or outright errors. No matter how awesome the series taken on its own terms is, anyone with deep knowledge of Brazil would be driven to frustration, and soon would hit a breaking point.
I guess I'm hopeful -- but also biased as a pre-existing Terry Matalas fan. Honestly, the main impediment to Picard season 3 is what happened in season 1. Robert Meyer Burnett has even said the man yelling at clouds meme directed at him has been replaced by the Picard died and this is a robot copy one. I'm slowly watching season 1 for the first time to develop my own opinion on just how good season 3 has to be to excuse season 1 (plus wiping out the Litverse), and.. yowza. Lots of notes taken. Maybe the post about all that goes here, or goes on Reddit depending on how I end up leaning. I'm hoping it's survivable, that season 3 is awesome, and that it brings many many many people back.
The tyranny of small differences at this point. I was around for that. To ENT's credit, it fixed many of its own messes. And with seasons 3 and 4, I'd rank ENT higher than VGR. But yeah the where is the NX-01 model everywhere is a good one. Maybe the NX-01 also did something to really piss off a founding species of the Federation, so it isn't everywhere out of cultural sensitivity?
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I just figure the TMP recreation deck alcove display rotated images and we just didn't see when the NX-01 was being shown on the screen right next to the TOS Enterprise. And the TNG Season 1-4 observation lounge wall didn't even have the space shuttle so we can just say that's what Picard asked for because they were his sentimental favorites or what the display artist chose for their own personal reasons.
Ok, this is a weird one, but can anyone place the score during Vadic's attack with prior TNG? It kinda kinda sounds like the coming of the Borg from Q Who and BOBW, but if anyone has done a recent re-watch of TNG, does it light up anywhere else for you?
I have to skim "Conspiracy" now just to see what that episode's score is, just in case it comes up as a callback next month!
I have to skim "Conspiracy" now just to see what that episode's score is, just in case it comes up as a callback next month!
Maybe. I have a deep knowledge of Trek and am perfectly fine with what is being presented. This is clearly a mileage will vary aspect, so the idea that deep knowledge of Trek somehow breeds frustration in a fan is not a fair sweep, anymore than assuming that now I love the Prequel Trilogy of Star Wars (I don't, but that's a whole other subforum).
I like Discovery because it captures the feel of adventure of from TOS that I enjoyed when I watched it on VHS. I enjoy Strange New Worlds because Pike has always been my favorite captain-period. Now, some things can't always square which is fine. If anyone every studies history they'll realize history is not continuous. There are contradictions, and errors, and reporter bias, and out and out misinformation. Star Trek in Berman era felt like a bit of propaganda machine. SNW and Discovery perhaps hit the darker aspects too much but there is nothing in these new shows that makes me go, "That doesn't work." It falls largely in to another point of view. Which is way more fun that out of hand rejection, which I had definitely done in the past.
No more than TMP did.
There were TOS fans crying fowl at the TMP Klingons the same way TNG+ fans are crying fowl at the DSC redesign.
I grew up with the Ridged Klingons and I'm find with the Discovery redesign.
New era, new makeup, just like when TMP came along.
Ok, I'm going to try and full circle this back into the Picard season 3 trailer. Either officially or indirectly, there's an attempt here to appeal to pre-2005 fans that have been alienated by the current output.
We see both Worf in his traditional makeup, and what looks to be a 1701-A type Constitution class ship at what looks to be a fleet museum. Had the trailer featured Worf in Discovery season 1 Klingon makeup, or on a much less of a problem level of bad, a close in shot of a Discoprise with a problematic to canon registry number at that hypothetical fleet museum, it would have likely spurred a negative reaction in people that are already highly skeptical of this season.
Robert Meyer Burnett has reported that Picard season 3 is compliant within 1966-2005 canon, while also taking everything in Picard seasons 1 and 2 as a given. Having seen most of Picard season 1 and all of Picard season 2, I've only picked up on three problems, and all of those can be solved with one sentence hand waves (not counting the Q started it, and ended it, of most of season 2 -- so all of that has AGT level wiggle room). Of the Picard season 3 trailers, the only "problem" is having a SNW-type shuttle, but there's no reason a SNW-style shuttle can't exist in 1966-2005 canon. Now, as we all know, canon is open to interpretation, so there's probably some wiggle room here, but in general there shouldn't be any glaring problems.
RMB has also said Bryan Fuller's original plan for Discovery fit in with canon, but also had a Klingon redesign. Is there a Watsonian way to reconcile this... sure.
Could the Discovery season we got have redesigned the Klingons without breaking canon? Yes. You could have had the redesigned Klingons on the Ship of the Dead. Maybe they're a Klingon offshoot. Or, in attempting to fix the Klingon augment virus, they made themselves uber Klingons a la Worf from Genesis. Then you have TMP+ Klingons and TOS Klingons co-existing with them elsewhere. But, no. You see that all of the heads of the 20+ Houses look like Disco Klingons. Even the Discomirrorverse Klingons look like Disco Klingons.
TMP+ Klingons have appeared in 5/6 TOS films, all of TNG and its films, let's say 2/3rds of DS9, a half Klingon in let's say 98% of VGR as Torres missed a few episodes, and probably more than ten ENT episodes.
TOS Klingons appeared in, what, Kor with the Organians, Koloth with the tribbles, Kang with (*), "Friday's Child", the Vietnam episode, a hallucination in "Spectre of the Gun", and maybe the Elan of Troyas episode. I haven't seen TAS in 15 years but if we include that too, maybe that's 10 episodes of TOS Klingons.
You had various theories available, and ENT finally closed the loop with the Augment story arc (which a novel then used to solve the TNG vs DS9+ Trill problem). The only way I can solve the Disco Klingons in universe is a multiverse theory.
So, it's not only great to get Michael Dorn's Worf back, but Worf looking like Worf!
Prodigy is throwing shade at VGR's shuttles with the shuttlecraft replicator ("Crash all you want ... We can always make more!"
)
I said I just wanted to focus on the Trailer, but then I get this very thoughtful response, so... I do want to focus on the Trailer, but I want to respond to this first.
1. Writing. Without a good story, good dialogue, and good characterization, nothing else matters. I'll place characterization above story because if a story isn't that great or that original, then the characters can still carry it and that makes the difference. This happened a lot for me with SNW. The characters had to carry a story that I felt was "been there, done that."
2. Acting. If the acting falls flat, then what's written could be brilliant, but it died in the delivery.
3. Directing. The director has to make sure everything looks like it flows right and that the presentation does the production justice.
4. Production Values. If there's a low budget or no budget, not much you can do there. I understand. But for something with a decent budget or better, they'd better make me buy into the world I'm watching. In Star Trek's case, can I suspend my disbelief while I'm watching and think I'm watching The Future? I don't, for one second, think the real future will be anything like Star Trek, but if I can suspend my disbelief that's good enough. Also, if they have a decent budget, I don't want it to look cheap. If it looks cheap, I'll start to wonder, "Where did all the money go to?"
In PIC Season 1, they had clothing that looked too contemporary. I don't buy it as the turn of the 25th Century. When Riker shows up at the end to bring in the calvary and every ship looks the same, that was cheap. I call it the Xerox Fleet. Those were two areas where the production values fell a little bit short, but I didn't think they were serious problems. By and large, the design-work was great. And as for the clothing? It's a tough nut to crack. If the clothing looks too garish or too futuristic, no one's going to take it seriously and the tone of PIC Season 1 was very serious. But they went a bit too far in the other direction and played it a little too safe.
Nowhere on that list of mine do you see Canon. I view canon as a fun thing. It's fun to see how it all fits. But it has to STAY just fun. I'm not going to beat something up over it.
I thought DSC was going to take place between TUC and TNG. Then I found out it was going to be "10 years before TOS". When I saw the first teaser, it threw me a loop, but I thought, "Whatever. If it's good, then I'll let go of it." Because I wasn't about to get hung up on that for years on end. I just thought, "what's done has been done" and gave it a pass. Because, at the end of the day, it's all made up!
TV and Film doesn't always get it right with real time periods, let alone fictional ones. For stuff that takes place before I was born or can't remember, I have to research what's on or off. For stuff that takes place during a time I can remember (the mid-'80s or later), yeah, I'm looking at what looks right and what doesn't. I'm not even trying to; it just jumps out at me. Like That '90s Show. These are high school kids in 1995. I was in high school in 1995. I can tell immediately if something's off. Some things they got a little bit off, but I'm not going to throw out the baby with the bathwater. By and large, they got it right.
In the case of Star Trek:
SNW --> I think it looks like a reasonable update of the TOS Era. Despite what Paramount says, I treat it like a reboot even if it's not. There are some things I would've done differently, but that comes down to nitpicking or personal preference. Nothing serious.
DSC Seasons 1 and 2 --> There's no other way to say it than to say it: It doesn't look like the TOS Era. It does look like what the TOS Movie Era would've looked like if it had continued to Today. Which is another reason why I wish it had initially taken place after TUC.
PIC --> It looks like how the TNG Movies would've looked if they were still being made today. Nemesis plus 20 years? I completely believe it. Out of the three live-action New Trek series, they did the best job here.
Different people have different thresholds and it doesn't have to be just about time periods. I have a god-sister who works as a Prison Guard. She can't watch anything that takes place in a prison because she'll immediately start picking it apart and look at what they got right or got wrong. If I was in the Navy or was an Astronaut, I'd probably look at Star Trek in general (canon or not) and might have a hard time watching it because I'd be looking at what they did and didn't get right. Because then I'd be comparing it to something real.
You're welcome!
This is the order that I prioritize things:
1. Writing. Without a good story, good dialogue, and good characterization, nothing else matters. I'll place characterization above story because if a story isn't that great or that original, then the characters can still carry it and that makes the difference. This happened a lot for me with SNW. The characters had to carry a story that I felt was "been there, done that."
2. Acting. If the acting falls flat, then what's written could be brilliant, but it died in the delivery.
3. Directing. The director has to make sure everything looks like it flows right and that the presentation does the production justice.
4. Production Values. If there's a low budget or no budget, not much you can do there. I understand. But for something with a decent budget or better, they'd better make me buy into the world I'm watching. In Star Trek's case, can I suspend my disbelief while I'm watching and think I'm watching The Future? I don't, for one second, think the real future will be anything like Star Trek, but if I can suspend my disbelief that's good enough. Also, if they have a decent budget, I don't want it to look cheap. If it looks cheap, I'll start to wonder, "Where did all the money go to?"
In PIC Season 1, they had clothing that looked too contemporary. I don't buy it as the turn of the 25th Century. When Riker shows up at the end to bring in the calvary and every ship looks the same, that was cheap. I call it the Xerox Fleet. Those were two areas where the production values fell a little bit short, but I didn't think they were serious problems. By and large, the design-work was great. And as for the clothing? It's a tough nut to crack. If the clothing looks too garish or too futuristic, no one's going to take it seriously and the tone of PIC Season 1 was very serious. But they went a bit too far in the other direction and played it a little too safe.
Nowhere on that list of mine do you see Canon. I view canon as a fun thing. It's fun to see how it all fits. But it has to STAY just fun. I'm not going to beat something up over it.
They outright changed the look in Early-DSC and just updated it in SNW. You can either accept that's what they did or not. If you don't, then yeah, it's going to be crazy, and you would hit a breaking point.
I thought DSC was going to take place between TUC and TNG. Then I found out it was going to be "10 years before TOS". When I saw the first teaser, it threw me a loop, but I thought, "Whatever. If it's good, then I'll let go of it." Because I wasn't about to get hung up on that for years on end. I just thought, "what's done has been done" and gave it a pass. Because, at the end of the day, it's all made up!
TV and Film doesn't always get it right with real time periods, let alone fictional ones. For stuff that takes place before I was born or can't remember, I have to research what's on or off. For stuff that takes place during a time I can remember (the mid-'80s or later), yeah, I'm looking at what looks right and what doesn't. I'm not even trying to; it just jumps out at me. Like That '90s Show. These are high school kids in 1995. I was in high school in 1995. I can tell immediately if something's off. Some things they got a little bit off, but I'm not going to throw out the baby with the bathwater. By and large, they got it right.
In the case of Star Trek:
SNW --> I think it looks like a reasonable update of the TOS Era. Despite what Paramount says, I treat it like a reboot even if it's not. There are some things I would've done differently, but that comes down to nitpicking or personal preference. Nothing serious.
DSC Seasons 1 and 2 --> There's no other way to say it than to say it: It doesn't look like the TOS Era. It does look like what the TOS Movie Era would've looked like if it had continued to Today. Which is another reason why I wish it had initially taken place after TUC.
PIC --> It looks like how the TNG Movies would've looked if they were still being made today. Nemesis plus 20 years? I completely believe it. Out of the three live-action New Trek series, they did the best job here.
Different people have different thresholds and it doesn't have to be just about time periods. I have a god-sister who works as a Prison Guard. She can't watch anything that takes place in a prison because she'll immediately start picking it apart and look at what they got right or got wrong. If I was in the Navy or was an Astronaut, I'd probably look at Star Trek in general (canon or not) and might have a hard time watching it because I'd be looking at what they did and didn't get right. Because then I'd be comparing it to something real.
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My last comment on anything not related to Picard
SNW Season 2 filming leaks
SNW Season 2 filming leaks
Someone posted what appears to be an extra in Klingon makeup, and it's very much not the Discovery makeup and a lot closer to TNG. But they were an extra, so it's possible the makeup was lower detail because they wouldn't be seen close up
I wonder if
that's the leaked photo of the two men, one in TNG style Klingon makeup and one who looks like a swarthy human with dark facial hair. That could imply both TNG style and Augment Klingons will appear in Season 2.
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That is the one I was talking about, but I think you should spoiler tag that since this isn't a SNW thread.
Romulan Bird of Prey and possibly a Ferengi ship at Space Dock?
https://twitter.com/gaghyogi49/status/1620505318982549505
Romulan Bird of Prey and possibly a Ferengi ship at Space Dock?
https://twitter.com/gaghyogi49/status/1620505318982549505
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Who cares what that guy says about anything…? He comes across as utterly self important with delusions of grandeur. He is entitled to his opinions and views, of course, but they aren’t worth more than anyone else’s.
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