Garrett Wang

[Lynx]

Nope. I refuse to forget and any entertainment that does so gets rejected out of hand.

That's your opinion.
I have a different approach to series. You should only know how many series I stopped watching because some character I liked left or was dumped and replaced by a character I regarded as a bad replacement and/or someone I simply couldn't stand.

I don't feel that whether or not a character is a fan favorite should be a factor in whether they're protected them from being written off a show. It should ideally be dictated by realism and whether their departure makes for a good story.

I've come to loathe the idea that everyone in a 'military'-based Sci-Fi series lives, or goes out like a hero, because that's not how the real world works. Tasha's original death may have been meaningless, but especially as the chief of security, it was what she signed on for, and while she may have regretted how pointless it was, I don't think she'd ever regret sacrificing herself for her crew. DISCO similarly handled a major character death well, though the amount of attention they put on it made it somewhat more awkward that other characters went out without it even being remarked upon. SG-1 did a great episode on a similar note, while for all its flaws I feel LOST also did a pretty good job of showing that people don't just get over the death of someone they know within the course of an hour.

Kes's becoming something more than a short-lived Ocampan had already been teased. I have mixed feelings about whether "Before and After" was intended to show one way her life might have gone with the intention that we'd never get to see that track in more detail, but I feel "The Gift" was a fairly organic ending to her story while "Fury" was something nobody asked for, and certainly demonstrated that the former could have been handled much worse.

Read my comment to DonIago above.
Personally I don't want my series to be exactly as it is in the Gray Universe when it comes to killing off cedrtain characters. Series is like rock music for me. If a band I like loose or dumps a member who is vital to the music and the music suffers from that, then it is goodbye from me.

Killing off Dr. Frazies in SG-1 was one of the most stupid things ever in any series I watched. For some strange reason, I didn't quit watching the series, mostly because it still had some qualities I liked but after all those years I still find that desicion stupid.

Killing off a main character just because someone just have to be killed off is downright stupidity and if people stop watching it because of that, I can understand it.

It's more complicated when it comes to as eries like NCIS where actors quit and they have to replace the characters. I can understand if an actor wants to quit and the information about it is honest, both from the company who makes the series and the actor. But if I don't like the changes or the replacement, then I quit watching it.

As for Kes, dumping her was stupid when there were other alternatives, such as prolonging her lifespan and the story in The Gift was downright stupid as well. However, I'm happy that you agree with me about the insulting crap episode which never should have been made.

"Before and After" was not intended to be continued. It was a substitute for the Kes arc we should have had. And as such, it could up the proverbial ante in changes because none of it was actually going to happen (kind of like when they knocked the crap out of the ship in "Year of Hell", aware that the Reset Button would fix it). Had Kes's story unfolded properly, over four years, a lot of what we saw in B&A would not have happened. They would not have killed off fan-favorite Janeway (B'Elanna is possible but not likely). Tom might have wound up with Kes, but I doubt Harry would have married Linnis, since he would have been feeding a bottle to her two or three years earlier.

This episode wasn't about any of them anyway, it was about Kes. As in, "Kes isn't going to have her abbreviated lifetime on the show proper, so let's do an AU episode that shows what might have been".

Personally, I still don't think that Before And After was made because they were about to dump Kes and made the episode to show what could have been. I think that it was more like some TNG episodes where there were some "what could have happened if" episodes, like Yesterday's Enterprise, Future Imperfect, Tapestry, Parallels and All Good Things, episodes where an alternate future was showed up and that they later on used some events in that episode to make Year Of Hell.

I didn't see or found any rumors about any plans to dump someone in season3 back then and not in later research either.

It probably doesn't help that NCIS has been around for longer than the first four series (TOS, TAS, TNG, and DS9) combined. There's probably some plot fatigue along with the character loss.

You are correct there. When I rewatch the series, I can clearly see how good it was in the early years. The quality of the stories did go down in later seasons, due to both loss of good characters and signs that the writers may have lost some of their inspiration. But it was still good and watchable until season 18 when three good characters, including the main character left and the replacemets were sub-standard, to put it nicely.

I don't like that trend either. I only have one streaming service (Paramount Plus), and I only keep it around for Star Trek.

Personally I prefer the DVD.s because then I onlöy have to pay one sum for the collections and also have control over how and when I want to watch certain series. I have had some bad experiences with streaming and I don't like to constantly have to pay a monthly sum for one seres when the rest of what the streaming company provides are mostly crap.

However, I have had some serious trouble with the Star Trek TNG and DS9 DVD:s in recent years which are described in the thread below. For some strange reason, my Voyager and TOS DVD:s whic I bought in 2006-2007 still works perfect.

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/and-here-we-go-again.312673/

Did you have access to the third season of The Orville?

Unfortunately not. The Orville seems to have been completly lost on my radar.
I can't find it anywhere on the TV channesla I can access or the streaming companies in my country.
Is that series still existing?

 

[Oddish]

Personally, I still don't think that Before And After was made because they were about to dump Kes and made the episode to show what could have been.

Possibly. There are two other possibilities... one, the writers/producers still intended to take Kes through her lifetime: romance, motherhood, aging. But, for reasons unknown, they decided to do a show doubling it. Kind of odd, but these were people who didn't even know that an ensign is supposed to make lieutenant, so you can't put anything past them. Other possibility was that they planned to keep Kes, but had a new plan for her, one very different from the B&A storyline.

But it was still good and watchable until season 18 when three good characters, including the main character left and the replacemets were sub-standard, to put it nicely.

That happens a lot, even when the replacement(s) are good in their own right. The overall chemistry of the show doesn't gel anymore. And NCIS was a show that ran on chemistry.

 

[fireproof78]

That's your opinion.
I have a different approach to series. You should only know how many series I stopped watching because some character I liked left or was dumped and replaced by a character I regarded as a bad replacement and/or someone I simply couldn't stand.

I mean, I get that. But, the idea of "change for change's sake" is not a reason I reject a show. I reject shows, and a lot of them, because I don't like characters. Voyager, Enterprise, TNG, all fall under that technically. JAG almost did because they replaced Lt. Austin with Major Mackenzie.

My list of favorite shows is extremely limited.

 

[Ridcully]

Aah...the old Annoyager show....
It was a in many ways a hopeless thing.

Has a few shiny bits here and there....but mostly still falls flat on its face!

 

[Phaser Two]

Unfortunately not. The Orville seems to have been completly lost on my radar.
I can't find it anywhere on the TV channesla I can access or the streaming companies in my country.
Is that series still existing?

The Orville's third season - going by the title "The Orville: New Horizons" but very much S3 of the same show - originally streamed on Hulu and is still available there; I don't think it's available anywhere else (and I haven't heard anything about a release of physical media, although you should check on that as well). If you can afford to sign up for Hulu for a month or whatever its minimum is, I think you would find the 10(?) episodes of S3 well worth your time. On balance I thought the season was excellent.

 

[Oddish]

Aah...the old Annoyager show....
It was a in many ways a hopeless thing.

Just the opposite, really. Voyager had a stellar cast and a great premise... and showrunners who couldn't find sand in the middle of the Sahara Desert.

 

[Bornin1980something]

Unfortunately not. The Orville seems to have been completly lost on my radar.
I can't find it anywhere on the TV channesla I can access or the streaming companies in my country.
Is that series still existing?

Season 3 is on Disney+ in most international (I.e. non-American) markets. However, I understand it is late in some European countries, probably because of delays in dubbing. Also, unlike the first two seasons, the third is not available on physical discs, anywhere.

 

[Farscape One]

That's your opinion.
I have a different approach to series. You should only know how many series I stopped watching because some character I liked left or was dumped and replaced by a character I regarded as a bad replacement and/or someone I simply couldn't stand.



Read my comment to DonIago above.
Personally I don't want my series to be exactly as it is in the Gray Universe when it comes to killing off cedrtain characters. Series is like rock music for me. If a band I like loose or dumps a member who is vital to the music and the music suffers from that, then it is goodbye from me.

Killing off Dr. Frazies in SG-1 was one of the most stupid things ever in any series I watched. For some strange reason, I didn't quit watching the series, mostly because it still had some qualities I liked but after all those years I still find that desicion stupid.

Killing off a main character just because someone just have to be killed off is downright stupidity and if people stop watching it because of that, I can understand it.

It's more complicated when it comes to as eries like NCIS where actors quit and they have to replace the characters. I can understand if an actor wants to quit and the information about it is honest, both from the company who makes the series and the actor. But if I don't like the changes or the replacement, then I quit watching it.

As for Kes, dumping her was stupid when there were other alternatives, such as prolonging her lifespan and the story in The Gift was downright stupid as well. However, I'm happy that you agree with me about the insulting crap episode which never should have been made.


Personally, I still don't think that Before And After was made because they were about to dump Kes and made the episode to show what could have been. I think that it was more like some TNG episodes where there were some "what could have happened if" episodes, like Yesterday's Enterprise, Future Imperfect, Tapestry, Parallels and All Good Things, episodes where an alternate future was showed up and that they later on used some events in that episode to make Year Of Hell.

I didn't see or found any rumors about any plans to dump someone in season3 back then and not in later research either.



You are correct there. When I rewatch the series, I can clearly see how good it was in the early years. The quality of the stories did go down in later seasons, due to both loss of good characters and signs that the writers may have lost some of their inspiration. But it was still good and watchable until season 18 when three good characters, including the main character left and the replacemets were sub-standard, to put it nicely.



Personally I prefer the DVD.s because then I onlöy have to pay one sum for the collections and also have control over how and when I want to watch certain series. I have had some bad experiences with streaming and I don't like to constantly have to pay a monthly sum for one seres when the rest of what the streaming company provides are mostly crap.

However, I have had some serious trouble with the Star Trek TNG and DS9 DVD:s in recent years which are described in the thread below. For some strange reason, my Voyager and TOS DVD:s whic I bought in 2006-2007 still works perfect.

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/and-here-we-go-again.312673/




Unfortunately not. The Orville seems to have been completly lost on my radar.
I can't find it anywhere on the TV channesla I can access or the streaming companies in my country.
Is that series still existing?

Regarding SG-1 and killing off Dr. Frasier...

The producers thought that season 7 was going to be their last. (Not the first time they thought that, either... seasons 5, 6, and 8 were also thought to be their last at the time they were writing the end of those seasons.) And "HEROES PART 2" was SG-1's 150th episode, which is a very high number for any series to get to. It was decided, with the factors of the 150th episode and what they thought would be the end of the show, to kill off a major character.

I wasn't happy they killed her off, either. But "HEROES PART 2" was a really great episode, and Carter's eulogy was excellent. That brings a few single man tears to my eyes every time I watch that scene. And going right from Carter reading that list of the lives Frasier did save to Bregman's video of the soldiers and their sacrifices... that was a damn good scene.

 

[fireproof78]

I may not like her dying but the episode was excellent.

 

[DonIago]

Yeah, I don't really know how it merits being called one of the most stupid things ever. My understanding is that by and large that episode is considered one of the finest of that franchise.

 

[at Quark's]

Just the opposite, really. Voyager had a stellar cast and a great premise... and showrunners who couldn't find sand in the middle of the Sahara Desert.

I tend to think of Voyager as a fairly good show, but with some significant problems - most due to the writer's tendency to stick to the tried-and-true formula even when the show's premise set the ship up in very different circumstances. In my view, the first two seasons of Enterprise made the same error.

 

[Lynx]

Possibly. There are two other possibilities... one, the writers/producers still intended to take Kes through her lifetime: romance, motherhood, aging. But, for reasons unknown, they decided to do a show doubling it. Kind of odd, but these were people who didn't even know that an ensign is supposed to make lieutenant, so you can't put anything past them. Other possibility was that they planned to keep Kes, but had a new plan for her, one very different from the B&A storyline.


That happens a lot, even when the replacement(s) are good in their own right. The overall chemistry of the show doesn't gel anymore. And NCIS was a show that ran on chemistry.

There were hints in seasons 2 and 3 that Kes would get a bigger role in the story, hints about a prolonged lifespan and episodes like Persistence Of Vision, Cold Fire, Warlord, Darkling and Scorpion#1.

As for your comments about NCIS, they are correct. They managed to keep a good standard of the show despite the loss of characters like Kate, Ziva and Tony but when four other ,main characters, including the leading one left, then everything fell apart.

I mean, I get that. But, the idea of "change for change's sake" is not a reason I reject a show. I reject shows, and a lot of them, because I don't like characters. Voyager, Enterprise, TNG, all fall under that technically. JAG almost did because they replaced Lt. Austin with Major Mackenzie.

My list of favorite shows is extremely limited.

You seem to be a lot like me in that aspect. As I told you, there are many shows I've simply stopped watching because some favorite characters of mine have been replaced by characters I found inferior an/or simply can't stand.

The Orville's third season - going by the title "The Orville: New Horizons" but very much S3 of the same show - originally streamed on Hulu and is still available there; I don't think it's available anywhere else (and I haven't heard anything about a release of physical media, although you should check on that as well). If you can afford to sign up for Hulu for a month or whatever its minimum is, I think you would find the 10(?) episodes of S3 well worth your time. On balance I thought the season was excellent.

I'll take a look at possibilities to watch it.

Season 3 is on Disney+ in most international (I.e. non-American) markets. However, I understand it is late in some European countries, probably because of delays in dubbing. Also, unlike the first two seasons, the third is not available on physical discs, anywhere.

Fortunately, the country I live in don't use dubbing but text translations instead which is much better since I actually prefer to hear the original language. Some of the more subtile comments often get lost in the translation.

A horrible translation but actually funny example which really made me laugh ther first time I saw it can be found in the Voyager episode Lifesigns when The Doctor seem distracted when Denara Pel isn't around.

THE DOCTOR: Because I don't like what's happening to me. I'm used to being in control of my faculties, confident of my decisions. But lately, whenever Denara's programme is deactivated and I should be concentrating on my work, I find myself thinking of nothing but her.
KES: Why don't you reactivate her?

The "funny" thing (at least for my twisted sense of humor) is that the Swedish translation used a term for "reactivate" which means "switch on" or "turn on" but in slang also mean..........well, it's about sexual intercourse. So what Kes actually said, due to the translation could be interpreted as "Why don't you **** her"

I've seen several translation errors in many Star Trek episodes but this was obviously the one which became a bit sick.

Anyway, I will continue to search for The Orville. A pity that it isn't available on DVD:s.

Regarding SG-1 and killing off Dr. Frasier...

The producers thought that season 7 was going to be their last. (Not the first time they thought that, either... seasons 5, 6, and 8 were also thought to be their last at the time they were writing the end of those seasons.) And "HEROES PART 2" was SG-1's 150th episode, which is a very high number for any series to get to. It was decided, with the factors of the 150th episode and what they thought would be the end of the show, to kill off a major character.

I wasn't happy they killed her off, either. But "HEROES PART 2" was a really great episode, and Carter's eulogy was excellent. That brings a few single man tears to my eyes every time I watch that scene. And going right from Carter reading that list of the lives Frasier did save to Bregman's video of the soldiers and their sacrifices... that was a damn good scene.

If they wanted to go out with a bang, then killing of a main character was definitely the most stupid thing to do, especially since it wasn't definitely decided that the series shouldn't continue. By doing so, they lost a great character and also an actress who actually wanted to stay on the show.

A dark stain on otherwise a great show.

As for me, I don't like "episodes which are supposed to bring tears in someone's eyes". I guess I've experiienced too many sad deaths since my childhood to appreciate such "entertainment".

If I should try to find anything, any tiny positive aspect, then it's probably that they didn't turn Dr. Frazier into some mentally disturbed monster before killing her off.

 

[fireproof78]

You seem to be a lot like me in that aspect. As I told you, there are many shows I've simply stopped watching because some favorite characters of mine have been replaced by characters I found inferior an/or simply can't stand.

Save for the fact that I don't mind the "Grey Universe" as you describe it, and welcome it in my entertainment.

 

[Oddish]

There were hints in seasons 2 and 3 that Kes would get a bigger role in the story, hints about a prolonged lifespan and episodes like Persistence Of Vision, Cold Fire, Warlord, Darkling and Scorpion#1.

If that was the case, and if they had a vision for Kes's journey, then they did us a severe disservice by eliminating her. Better to have a character who goes somewhere than one who not only goes nowhere (as Chakotay and Kim both did), but who actively advertises that your showrunners don't have a clue. And again, Chakotay and Kim both did: Chakotay's character was based on the advice of a charlatan, and anyone with working knowledge of either Trek or the Navy would know that Harry was an ensign for five years too long.

Ironically, Chakotay would have been the best sacrificial lamb... his romance with Janeway wasn't going to be developed, he lacked the strength to oppose Janeway (Tuvok would have been a stronger foil), his elimination would have shown that no one was safe, and Robert Beltran wanted out anyway. Harry at least had a cute bromance with Tom.

 

[at Quark's]

Ironically, Chakotay would have been the best sacrificial lamb... his romance with Janeway wasn't going to be developed, he lacked the strength to oppose Janeway (Tuvok would have been a stronger foil), his elimination would have shown that no one was safe, and Robert Beltran wanted out anyway. Harry at least had a cute bromance with Tom.

- "Hey, what happened to Chakotay? How did he die?"
- "Seems even his spirit animal was fed up with him. At least, it attacked him during his vision quest yesterday. Viciously."
- "Figures.... I guess."

 

[Sumire]

Oh poor Chakotay, so little love for him. As a Janeway x Chakotay shipper, I love him to bits but he was, also, sadly underutilized on the show. I wouldn’t wish anyone off the show but I 100% wish a number of characters were given better development.

 

[Oddish]

I've shipped J/C since I saw "Resolutions". They were just so cute together! But, since it wasn't happening...

 

[DonIago]

It's been a long time since I watched the show, but I can't even recall whether Chakotay got any meaningful character development post-Seska.

I did like the times when he stood up to Janeway...though there was never any real character development that came from that.

 

[Lynx]

Save for the fact that I don't mind the "Grey Universe" as you describe it, and welcome it in my entertainment.

if you had written that about 10-15 years ago, I might have agreed with you.

But currently I find the Gray Universe very dystopian and it affects such things as movies and TV-series too.
There is actually a reason why I no longer follow any TV-series. Too much doom-and-gloom in them.

If that was the case, and if they had a vision for Kes's journey, then they did us a severe disservice by eliminating her. Better to have a character who goes somewhere than one who not only goes nowhere (as Chakotay and Kim both did), but who actively advertises that your showrunners don't have a clue. And again, Chakotay and Kim both did: Chakotay's character was based on the advice of a charlatan, and anyone with working knowledge of either Trek or the Navy would know that Harry was an ensign for five years too long.

Ironically, Chakotay would have been the best sacrificial lamb... his romance with Janeway wasn't going to be developed, he lacked the strength to oppose Janeway (Tuvok would have been a stronger foil), his elimination would have shown that no one was safe, and Robert Beltran wanted out anyway. Harry at least had a cute bromance with Tom.

If they had given Kes a prolonged lifespan, used her limited powers and also extended her role to be a counselor or something similar, the character would have been terrific.

As for Chakotay, I think he was great in the first three seasons. He had a lot of potential.
After that, they wasted him. But they actually wasted Torres, Tuvok, neelix and Kim too in the later seasons.
However, I'm happy that they didn't kill off Chakotay. He is my second favorite in the show after Kes and it would also have been difficult to include him in any stories about Voyager after their return to the Alpha Quadrant.

I don't want to be rude to Kim but I must state than even in his worst moments, Chakotay was a better character than Kim.

 

[Oddish]

don't want to be rude to Kim but I must state than even in his worst moments, Chakotay was a better character than Kim.

Neither was a bad character. They were just both disastrously underutilized.

If they had given Kes a prolonged lifespan, used her limited powers and also extended her role to be a counselor or something similar, the character would have been terrific.

Her character was fine without those things. Any or all of the three could have been used to tell great stories; the actors were all adequate to the task.