News "Star Trek's Jonathan Frakes Still Has Issues With How The Next Generation Handled Riker And Troi"

[Qonundrum]

https://www.cinemablend.com/televis...ow-the-next-generation-handled-riker-and-troi

Spoiler: 6 month rule

Jonathan Frakes recently had the opportunity to reprise his role alongside Marina Sirtis' Troi, on Star Trek: Picard, and it turns out that one reason he wanted to do the show was so that they could fulfill the promise of the relationship which he felt was side-lined by The Next Generation. Here's what he told Syfy Wire:

When they introduced this story that Marina [Sirtis] — Counselor Troi and I — have a family and live on a planet that looks like rural Maine, it felt like a gift. The obvious gift being that we got to play together with our friends from 33 years ago, but it's also the idea that Marina and I had both held onto a very specific story for these characters. We held it close to our hearts for many years, and the writers had seemed to give up on it.​

Not a bad reason, to be retired out there, and response to their being on the show has been positive from what I'd read and seen so far...

And it's true; TNG did fumble, especially later on when trying to do the forced and pointless shipping of Troi and Worf - which not only made no sense, when he went to DS9 he drops Troi like a hot potato to go with Dax... though Riker was the type to settle down? But the same can be said of Kirk. (I was content with the duo not being together during TNG's run but it makes sense they'd be retired together in some shack sharing doses of famciclovir for their space cooties. In real life, 75% of adult Americans have Herpes Simplex and 20% have HSV type 2, so there's your Sheldon Factoid for today...)

Not bad reasons...

 

[KennyB]

https://www.cinemablend.com/televis...ow-the-next-generation-handled-riker-and-troi

https://www.cinemablend.com/televis...ow-the-next-generation-handled-riker-and-troi


Just FYI.....in the forum rules thread

Star Trek: Picard forum spoiler policy

For the purposes of discussing Star Trek: Picard in this forum, the spoiler threshold will be reduced to two weeks. That means that plot details for new installments should be spoiler coded for two weeks after an episode first airs in the US, if they're not posted in a spoiler-tagged thread where they can reasonably be expected, such as the discussion thread for a specific episode. After two weeks have passed, plot details can be discussed openly in any thread in the forum.

This lowered threshold only applies to discussing Picard in this forum. When discussing Picard in other forums, please assume that the normal six-month threshold applies, unless the forum's mods have established otherwise.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

I mm glad that the actors got to fulfill their vision of the characters, but for me it’s too predictable and boring. What little romantic interactions Troi and Worf had were far more interesting than the ones between Riker and Troi. Troi seemed to be a more challenging partner for Worf than for Riker, which made for a better dynamic imo.
Now Ro and Riker...that had potential had she not flipped.

 

[Mark 2000]

Forcing the whole Worf/Troi thing was such a mistake. They had zero chemistry and nothing in common but Alexander. Troi couldn’t be that baby crazy. Plus it was the harbinger of much worse crushes/love triangle drama to come in later shows.

 

[fireproof78]

Worf and Yar...if she had continued on.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

Forcing the whole Worf/Troi thing was such a mistake. They had zero chemistry and nothing in common but Alexander. Troi couldn’t be that baby crazy. Plus it was the harbinger of much worse crushes/love triangle drama to come in later shows.

I can't see Troi staying with Worf if he continued to be so devoted and involved with Klingon politics and warrior culture. It's only plausible if Worf had changed enough not to let the Klingon so-called honor culture have such a huge influence on him. I'd like to think that he'd grown to see the actual Klingon warrior culture as nothing more than scheming political maneuvering and create his own way while staying true to the core tenants of his culture. I think had the show gone on and they went with this approach, it would have showed his growth as a character, and given more reason why Troi would suddenly be interested in him. Worf himself seemed to be more confident and emotive in the last couple seasons. When he's arguing with Duras about Khales bringing back honor, Michael Dorn seemed to shake off the old stiff-sounding Worf, and come up with a more naturalistic delivery.
Why wouldn't Troi fall for Worf? He was an honorable guy, not hooking up with just anyone. Riker was getting it in with women he hardly knew, like that one with "the game" who was really a spy trying to take over the Enterprise.
Worf on the other hand...let's see, Kheyl'r...that's it as far as TNG is concerned. He did kiss the half-Romulan half-Klingon woman but that was about it from what I remember.

Worf and Yar...if she had continued on.

I thought that they might get closer considering their backgrounds and job description. I always like Tasha but I think she was the least interesting out of all the crew.

 

[Mark 2000]

Why wouldn't Troi fall for Worf? He was an honorable guy, not hooking up with just anyone. Riker was getting it in with women he hardly knew, like that one with "the game" who was really a spy trying to take over the Enterprise.

You have a very strange idea of what makes someone a good mate, especially with this weight on having as few as possible partners as if that's a virtue. What you’re describing sounds more like the 19th century, not the 24th. Roddenberry's vision of the 24th century was an orgy, and in Dorothy Fontana's original Farpoint outline it was Troi who was pushing "Ryker" for NSA sex. You can still see hints of that relationship in the first season. Troi had quite a few affairs during the run of the show. No one in TNG would care about a person's sexual history at all.
Worf on the other hand, is a completely hung up prude who thought sex meant marriage. He boasted of his prowess, but may have only done it once. Do you really think a sexually sophisticated Betazoid who partakes in nude weddings and oily foot rubs is going to enjoy life with a fundamentalist monk type? Worf also has a rigid world view in a number of areas and is completely out of touch with his feelings to the point that he thinks it's improper to laugh. Trio makes orgasm noises in public while eating chocolate. Yeah, Troi/Worf would never even seem possible to a sane writers room. Just one running out of ideas.

 

[fireproof78]

Just furthers my view about romance in Trek.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

You have a very strange idea of what makes someone a good mate, especially with this weight on having as few as possible partners as if that's a virtue.

I wasn't commenting on how many partners Riker had. I was criticizing how he wasn't very discriminate with whom he chose to have sexual relations with. He had a fling with a woman he barely knew and it almost cost him the entire ship and its crew. Even in the 24th century I would think that would be a problem.

Roddenberry's vision of the 24th century was an orgy

And yet Roddenberry's vision was getting curbed as he was eased out of control of TNG and as a result, the show got better.
It's supposedly an orgy, yet Picard and Crusher are both bothered by Kamala's role as a metamorph.

and in Dorothy Fontana's original Farpoint outline it was Troi who was pushing "Ryker" for NSA sex.

So it didn't actually happen on screen.

Troi had quite a few affairs during the run of the show. No one in TNG would care about a person's sexual history at all.

I don't remember Troi having a meaningless fling like Riker had with that one woman who used "The Game" on him.

Worf on the other hand, is a completely hung up prude who thought sex meant marriage. He boasted of his prowess, but may have only done it once.

When did he brag about his sexual prowess?

Do you really think a sexually sophisticated Betazoid who partakes in nude weddings and oily foot rubs is going to enjoy life with a fundamentalist monk type?

Opposites attract. How is Worf a monk? Monks abstain from sex. Worf has no problem having sex. And Troi doesn't seem like the type that would reject someone just because they haven't had as much sex as Riker or even herself.

Worf also has a rigid world view in a number of areas and is completely out of touch with his feelings to the point that he thinks it's improper to laugh.

And yet he's laughs heartily at Guinan saying some women would consider him "tame."

Trio makes orgasm noises in public while eating chocolate. Yeah, Troi/Worf would never even seem possible to a sane writers room. Just one running out of ideas.

It creates drama. Many interesting and fun romantic relationships on-screen involve two characters who are completely opposite of one another.
Riker and Troi ending up together is just predictable and boring.
Now for PIC, I'm happy they are together because it serves the story well. But in TNG I would have preferred it be Worf and Troi.

 

[Mark 2000]

I wasn't commenting on how many partners Riker had. I was criticizing how he wasn't very discriminate with whom he chose to have sexual relations with.

Riker having sex with a woman did not bring down the ship. Her putting a device on his face did. That could have happened in any friendly context where someone you get along with says "hey, try this game". Complaining about someone having flings is sex shaming, plain and simple. And that's what you're doing. You literally state Worf's lack of partners is a virtue.

So it didn't actually happen on screen.

It did a bit in The Naked Now and Haven.

And yet Roddenberry's vision was getting curbed as he was eased out of control of TNG and as a result, the show got better. It's supposedly an orgy, yet Picard and Crusher are both bothered by Kamala's role as a metamorph.

That's a matter of taste. I like season one and many episodes in two I like a lot. Roddenberry had some control up until his death. After that Trek got more and more bland and, yes, prudish. And that metamorph episode was absolutely gross. Yes, Riker slut shames her and Picard covets her. In the end the problem with her isn't her sexuality, it's that she's being sold off to someone and her sole purpose it to make men happy.

When did he brag about his sexual prowess?
And yet he's laughs heartily at Guinan saying some women would consider him "tame."

These two lines contradict each other. You acknowledge Worf has said a few times human women wouldn't be able to handle whatever graceless Klingon humping he's into. Guinan also had to explain to Worf that Klingons do laugh after he explains that they don't.

It creates drama. Many interesting and fun romantic relationships on-screen involve two characters who are completely opposite of one another.

Not at all. Really think about how opposite couples, even on TV, really are. Other than some philosophical differences and emotional quirks they are mostly in sync. They have to have SOMETHING to talk about, and Troi and Worf have nothing at all in common but the ship they serve on. And what you don't realize because you seem sex-negative in general, is that sexual compatibility is everything, and Worf and Troi would never have that. Him being a generally nice guy, which I could make the case he's not, doesn't mean he's the right person for anyone.

Riker and Troi ending up together is just predictable and boring.

Troi and Riker in a relationship would be boring. Any relationship would, but especially Troi and Worf. Romance on Trek has always been lame. Troi and Riker fucking, however, would be interesting.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

Riker having sex with a woman did not bring down the ship. Her putting a device on his face did. That could have happened in any friendly context where someone you get along with says "hey, try this game".

Except that he didn't put the device on his head by recommendation of some friend. It was implied that Riker and the woman, while in bed, had just had sex or were about to. It was in this situation that he let her put the game on him.

Complaining about someone having flings is sex shaming, plain and simple. And that's what you're doing.

Which is it? Having casual sex or having a large number of partners? There not the same thing.

You literally state Worf's lack of partners is a virtue.

You're using that word wrong.

It did a bit in The Naked Now and Haven.

The Naked Now? The episode where everyone gets infected by some kind of disease that makes everyone horny including the robot?

That's a matter of taste. I like season one and many episodes in two I like a lot. Roddenberry had some control up until his death.

True, I also like the first two seasons. Roddenberry's control had diminished greatly from what it was at the beginning of the series.

After that Trek got more and more bland and, yes, prudish. And that metamorph episode was absolutely gross.Yes, Riker slut shames her and Picard covets her. In the end the problem with her isn't her sexuality, it's that she's being sold off to someone and her sole purpose it to make men happy.

She's sold off? I thought she chose to bring peace to the warring groups? I don't remember Riker slut shaming her either. I thought everything was a big orgy? What's wrong with a woman making one man, not men, happy? Didn't she state that metamorph's derive happiness by bringing other's happiness?

These two lines contradict each other. You acknowledge Worf has said a few times human women wouldn't be able to handle whatever graceless Klingon humping he's into.

Wow, who's sex shaming now?
The line could be interpreted many ways. You interpreted it as him bragging about his sexual prowess. I took it that it's because Klingons are just rough-acting in general. They engage in arm wrestling contests where the loser gets his hand stabbed by a knife. They hit each other as a form of foreplay.
Or maybe it was his way of saying he just prefers Klingon women.
Or maybe...just maybe he changed his opinion on dating outside his species. The guy changed a lot from Season 1.

Guinan also had to explain to Worf that Klingons do laugh after he explains that they don't.

So he does laugh. Glad we got that out the way.

And what you don't realize because you seem sex-negative in general,

An erroneous assumption.

is that sexual compatibility is everything, and Worf and Troi would never have that.

And how do you know they'd be sexually incompatible? Did they have sex on the show? If they did, did she complain about it?
Not to mention some people have no problem teaching a less sexually experienced partner.
And apparently Dax from DS9 who lived many life times and probably had lots of sex had no problem with Worf's bedroom skills.

Him being a generally nice guy, which I could make the case he's not, doesn't mean he's the right person for anyone.

Yes. Because the most important aspect is how many sexual parters he's had.

Troi and Riker in a relationship would be boring.

Because it often was. The most interesting interactions they had was when they weren't together.

Any relationship would, but especially Troi and Worf.

No. The brief relationship between Picard and Daren was great. They had better chemistry than him and Beverly.
Worf and Kheyl'r had some sparks.
Even Data and Jenna D'Sora were more interesting together.
Amnesiac Riker and Ro were good together.
Wesley and Robin had a cute puppy dog romance starting.

The problem with Riker and Troi is that we're TOLD they're soul mates at the beginning. Show, don't tell. Meant-to-be-soulmates from the very start lessen the necessary unpredictability aspect of love.

Romance on Trek has always been lame.

Not true.

 

[Mark 2000]

Except that he didn't put the device on his head by recommendation of some friend. It was implied that Riker and the woman, while in bed, had just had sex or were about to.

And those things are different, how? Except that you think sex is bad.

Which is it? Having casual sex or having a large number of partners? There not the same thing.

You have a problem with both, so you tell me.

You're using that word wrong.

Nope.

She's sold off? I thought she chose to bring peace to the warring groups? ... What's wrong with a woman making one man, not men, happy? Didn't she state that metamorph's derive happiness by bringing other's happiness?

The whole story is about her being given to a man to seal a contract. That's a sale, son. And you really don't see the problem with the concept of a woman getting all of her pleasure solely from making a man happy? Come on.

So he does laugh. Glad we got that out the way.

So he said Klingons don't laugh and Guinan responds she's seen a number of Klingon belly laughs. Passive aggressive quip here.

An erroneous assumption.

You've proven otherwise.

And how do you know they'd be sexually incompatible? Did they have sex on the show? If they did, did she complain about it?

Because he's a prude and she's not. He probably thinks missionary is kinky. Sexual hangups are hard nuts to crack and mismatched libidos are real. Listen to Savage Love sometime.

Not to mention some people have no problem teaching a less sexually experienced partner.

That's the men like virgins fantasy. I, personally, have never spoken to a woman who was all "I can't wait to tame his porno expectations and premature ejaculation."

And apparently Dax from DS9 who lived many life times and probably had lots of sex had no problem with Worf's bedroom skills.

From little I saw of it, that relationship didn't make sense either, like all the other relationships on DS9 except Sisko and the freighter captain.

No. The brief relationship between Picard and Daren was great. They had better chemistry than him and Beverly.

Watching Picard titter in fear of his own erection like a teenage anime boy is never fun. He's as sexually immature and repressed as Worf.

Worf and Kheyl'r had some sparks.

Only because Kheyl'r is everything.

Even Data and Jenna D'Sora were more interesting together.

That was about a failed relationship, not one we were supposed to believe in. And it was still pretty bland and chaste.

Wesley and Robin had a cute puppy dog romance starting.

Barf.

The problem with Riker and Troi is that we're TOLD they're soul mates at the beginning. Show, don't tell. Meant-to-be-soulmates from the very start lessen the necessary unpredictability aspect of love.

No, we're told they have history. Everything else is implied through out their interactions.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

And those things are different, how?

Meaning he was only in that situation because he wasn't very choosy about whom he had sex with. She was on his back and put in on him without even asking him permission.

Except that you think sex is bad.

Another erroneous assumption.

You have a problem with both, so you tell me.

I never said I had a problem with both, so just more assuming on your part.

The whole story is about her being given to a man to seal a contract. That's a sale, son.

So you have a problem with sex workers in general? They regularly engage in "sales." And from what I remember, Kamala had a choice. And she "bonds" with her partner, which would be a metamorph's equivalent of love.

And you really don't see the problem with the concept of a woman getting all of her pleasure solely from making a man happy? Come on.

Considering that in the story, male metamorphs derive happiness from making their partners happy as well, no I don't have a problem with it. It's science fiction.
In real life that would be a sign of something very problematic.


So he said Klingons don't laugh and Guinan responds she's seen a number of Klingon belly laughs. Passive aggressive quip here.

You've proven otherwise.

Keep telling yourself that.

Because he's a prude and she's not.

Klingon culture and romance hints more at 50 Shades of Grey. We already see that him and Khey'lr were engaging in some extremely rough foreplay. That's some kinky stuff already.

Sexual hangups are hard nuts to crack and mismatched libidos are real. Listen to Savage Love sometime.

And what sexual hangups did Worf actually have besides the ones you've imagined.

That's the men like virgins fantasy. I, personally, have never spoken to a woman who was all "I can't wait to tame his porno expectations and premature ejaculation."

Ah, so you're a sexist! Women couldn't possibly be willing to teach her partner in the bedroom. Maybe you're projecting? And limiting yourself to heteronormative stereotypes as well. What if it's two women in relationship and one doesn't have experience. "I can't wait to tame his porno expectations and pre...oh wait."

From little I saw of it, that relationship didn't make sense either, like all the other relationships on DS9 except Sisko and the freighter captain.

I won't disagree with you there. I hated Worf and Dax.

Watching Picard titter in fear of his own erection like a teenage anime boy is never fun. He's as sexually immature and repressed as Worf.

It's not Picard who I think is immature.

Only because Kheyl'r is everything.

Yes.

That was about a failed relationship, not one we were supposed to believe in.

It says a lot when a failed one-episode relationship between an emotionless robot and a human is more interesting than Imzadi's.

No, we're told they have history. Everything else is implied through out their interactions.

And the result is so very vanilla.

 

[Mark 2000]

Meaning he was only in that situation because he wasn't very choosy about whom he had sex with. She was on his back and put in on him without even asking him permission.

And that’s different from meeting someone at a ski lift and having them do the same thing to you how?

So you have a problem with sex workers in general? They regularly engage in "sales." And from what I remember, Kamala had a choice. And she "bonds" with her partner, which would be a metamorph's equivalent of love.

A slave to one man is not a “sex worker”. Why are you trying to defend and rationalize this?

And what sexual hangups did Worf actually have besides the ones you've imagined.

He thinks mating = marriage. That’s the ultimate hangup.

Ah, so you're a sexist! Women couldn't possibly be willing to teach her partner in the bedroom.

Yeah, what you said.

And the result is so very vanilla.

This from the guy who thinks Worf’s most bankable relationship asset is that he’s practically a virgin. But I never said Riker and Troi were especially interesting, Just that they were never presented as soulmates and that Troi and Worf is dumb.

 

[fireproof78]

He thinks mating = marriage. That’s the ultimate hangup.

I rather doubt that.

 

[CaptainXaviOfEarth]

You certainly don’t expect one of the executive producers to share this!

 

[Thomas Elliot]

And that’s different from meeting someone at a ski lift and having them do the same thing to you how?

Probably there's more trust and vulnerability involved in with someone you're making love to, as opposed to someone you just met at a ski lift.
I'm probably not going to let a stranger on a ski lift hook up some kind of mechanical device to my eyes. The woman I just made love to I'd probably be less hesitant. It's crazy I have to explain something like this.

A slave to one man is not a “sex worker”.

You made the sticking point about "sales."
I wasn't under the impression that she was a slave. Does Kamala not say it's her choice?
Again, in-universe, metamorphs have relationships in different ways as they're mutants who derive pleasure that way. It's not about a "man" but their partner, as it was said there are male metamorphs.
The premise from a writer or viewers POV is extremely problematic and I was criticizing the episode when I first got internet access way back when.

He thinks mating = marriage. That’s the ultimate hangup.

That says more about you than it does Worf. If some people believe having sex should only be with their wife or husband that's hardly the ultimate hangup.

This from the guy who thinks Worf’s most bankable relationship asset is that he’s practically a virgin.

Again, you're just making things up that I supposedly said. I guess that's one way to feel like you've won an argument.

I'd say more but going back and forth with a troll is pointless. Have fun having the last word.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I tend to think Riker and Troi had a casual/open relationship throughout TNG. But, getting on in years, married from fear of dying alone in Nemesis.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I always thought that Troi/Worf was ridiculous.

 

[Mark 2000]

Probably there's more trust and vulnerability involved in with someone you're making love to, as opposed to someone you just met at a ski lift.

Whatever you need to say to get a sexual encounter to seem morally and ethically wrong.

Again, in-universe

In universe is borderline meaningless to a conversation because the writers can present the most grotesque things as innocuous. Even then the conversation among the crew is very much about her free will in the situation, and the supposed tragedy in the end is that she married the leader when she really wanted Picard. But what’s really gross if that you see no problem with a female character who has zero personality and shapes herself to the men around her to gain their favor and please them.

If some people believe having sex should only be with their wife or husband that's hardly the ultimate hangup.

It means sex is unimportant to a relationship. There’s no reason to test compatibility in that area before hitching yourself to someone for life. And someone who practices that is probably also most likely also part of a system that frowns on if not forbids divorce, so what’s the incentive to improve? And those are the same conservative societies that see women’s bodies as something they have the right to access on their terms alone. So, yeah, ultimate hangup.

Again, you're just making things up that I supposedly said.

Why wouldn't Troi fall for Worf? He was an honorable guy, not hooking up with just anyone. Riker was getting it in with women he hardly knew, like that one with "the game" who was really a spy trying to take over the Enterprise.
Worf on the other hand...let's see, Kheyl'r...that's it as far as TNG is concerned. He did kiss the half-Romulan half-Klingon woman but that was about it from what I remember.

^^^Your entire argument in defense of Troi/Worf is that he’s honorable and hasn’t slept with anyone. That’s the whole thing.

Have fun having the last word.

I will. And I did. Smug emoji.