As villains go, Dukat is interesting. Okay, he's a megalomaniac, a psychopath and a mass murderer, but he also shows that there are some people he genuinely cares about (at least when it suits him), his children (not so much his wife, he did repeatedly cheat on her because he's a womaniser), to an extent he shows care for his former subordinate Damar, even in series seven he visits him and is friendly to him. He loved his illigitimate daughter Ziyal (after he decided not to kill her). Dukat is complicated, thoroughly evil with streaks of good.
Gul Dukat, one of the most three dimensional villains TV has ever seen
- Thread starter HelenofBorg
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Complicated, yes, but also inconsistently written. Word at the time was that one of the writers, Behr, I believe, was pretty upset that people actually liked Dukat. He wanted him more eeeevil, so they turned him into a mustache twirling cliche for the last two seasons, which was a shame. Before those plot twists, I enjoyed him as a character far more.
He fits the profile of a malignant Narcissist very well.
He fits the profile of a malignant Narcissist very well.
How much evil is too much evil? I think if a character is too evil it seems unrealistic. Towards the end of the series, he was more like completely evil, but in the beginning he seemed like an almost normal guy working for a despotic regime who just didn't see the problem with that regime. In the beginning he seemed almost reasonable. It was a very gradual change in Dukat though, it wasn't done all of a sudden. I think, given the story, the closer he got to the pah-wraiths, the more evil he became.
Dukat's character development from Emissary to Sacrifice Of Angels was fantastic. After that he became a mentally unhinged psychopath. It's like Part 1 and Part 2. I prefer him pre psychotic break but there were still many elements of the old Dukat even if he became little more than a mustache twirling villain towards the end.
Dukat eventually stopped pretending to be a nice guy, but his "evil" never really increased as far as I'm concerned. I never really understood the "mustache twirler" sobriquet, except in regards to how open he was about his goals sometimes. (Such as when he finally admits his true feelings to Sisko in Waltz). He was still a scheming, deceptive, loathsome man who continued to present himself as a misunderstood altruist. (Such as in Covenant.) The man was Machiavellian to the core.
But Machiavellian is not the same as evil. I think he was a more complex character earlier on and judge-able as bad guy but not so easily dismiss-able as eeeeevil or as a psychopath. He was a ruthless man trying to get ahead for himself and his fascist people. But he showed some “humanity” for example in “The Defiant” when he was talking about his children growing up to hate humans for taking their father away from them when they were supposed to be together. That was to guilt the Sisko, but also true and heartfelt, I think. Later, especially with the red contact lenses, he was just a “baddie” motivated for bad reasons to do bad things.
Indeed, he was the antichrist, working for demons to bring on the apocalypse.
Indeed, he was the antichrist, working for demons to bring on the apocalypse.
In the beginning Dukat was just your standard Cardassian heavy portrayed by an extremely charismatic actor. He had great chemistry with Sisko and Kira. Then the Cardassians were portrayed as evil because they brutalized the Bajorans in the labor camps and they had to defeated through terrorism before they abandoned the planet. Dukat was the face of that kind of villain, but he could very charming.
As the show evolved and the Dominion and other new elements shifted within the show, the producers gave Dukat different things to do, which softened his character. By season 4 the Cardassians were allies with the Bajorans and the Federation, Dukat was fighting the Klingons, and he had a half Bajoran daughter.
Then in season 5 when the Dominion War heated up, the producers decided that Dukat had to end up as the evil Nazi that they always thought he was. He became the biggest deluded egotist of the entire galaxy. He betrayed the Alpha Quadrant to obtain power through an ill-founded alliance with the Dominion. Then he lost a crucial battle, saw his daughter murdered, lost his mind, and became the leader of a Bajoran religious cult.
I don't think the producers really did the character justice. His evolution didn't feel natural or organic to me. But Marc Alaimo was always fun to watch.
As the show evolved and the Dominion and other new elements shifted within the show, the producers gave Dukat different things to do, which softened his character. By season 4 the Cardassians were allies with the Bajorans and the Federation, Dukat was fighting the Klingons, and he had a half Bajoran daughter.
Then in season 5 when the Dominion War heated up, the producers decided that Dukat had to end up as the evil Nazi that they always thought he was. He became the biggest deluded egotist of the entire galaxy. He betrayed the Alpha Quadrant to obtain power through an ill-founded alliance with the Dominion. Then he lost a crucial battle, saw his daughter murdered, lost his mind, and became the leader of a Bajoran religious cult.
I don't think the producers really did the character justice. His evolution didn't feel natural or organic to me. But Marc Alaimo was always fun to watch.
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That would have been a good way to develop his character as it was established. I think the producers were wrong to make him such a likable ally in seasons 4 and 5, and do an about face and turn him into an unprincipled self-deluded egotist in season 5. And I don't think he should have gone crazy or have become a follower of the Pa-Wraiths.
Oh they, Ira Behr and the bunch, didn't and I never thought they knew what they had in the character of Gul Dukat. I thought the Cardassians were more like the British during times of the British Empire and their tyranny over the Irish and the Scottish and their brutality and level of ruthlessness during their reign. What Cardassians had which was during the 1st through the 3rd seasons of DS9 was the ability to implant subtext to everything they said. To our heroes they are flat out "lies" but in accordance to the nature of the series at the time--when it was good-- the Cardassians reveled on mind games. The truth is in plain sight if our heroes look a little deeper; the display of visual storytelling during those seasons were outstanding, and expressed how dangerous the Cardassians were. Gul Dukat, and Garak were the pure manifestations of what Cardassia represented, and it's not pretty because the ultimate weapon of a Cardassian is their charm. You can have a conversation with these people and forget they are bastards, and for a moment, convince you on their twisted point of view. Nazi's were NOT like this, sorry Ira read a fucking history book!
I have to give a lot of credit to the actors of DS9 who seemed to understand the premise better than the writers at the time, and when a Cardassian appeared on the show in the beginning, all of the attention came to them.
I sensed the castration of the Cardassians started with the idiot named Korinas ("The Defiant") who was the observer of that goofy Obsidian Order which apparently Garak was in. Well, obviously "the Order" had better days and smarter people during Garak's term. And the layers of the characterizations of Cardassians continued to spiral down the Ira Behr toilet bowl when Garak's daddy does the most un-Cardassian thing and stupidly made a ridiculous attempt of attacking an alleged Dominion Homeworld ("The Die is Cast"). By that point it was quite clear the Cardassians were becoming second banana to the liquid terminator aliens, who are Odo's people, and the wannabe Klingons who had Predator-style camouflage powers.
When Bajor made the agreement to mend their differences with the Cardassians in a Treaty ("Life Support") I had the feeling there was more to this which was going on, and there was a master plan lingering with the Cardassians. How will they play this out??? And was it possible, the Cardassians were going to make the Bajorans become more like them? I saw some hints of this with Vedek Wynn, and the very Cardassian-like Bajorans "The Circle"; I felt there had to be more radical Bajorans out there, within the mists working with our heroes. "Who is the enemy when you're staring in the mirror?" I felt the Cardassians cast a shadow the Bajorans would have to deal with for the duration of the series, but by season 4 the Cardassians were a joke. And for me, the series became that as well with more 1 dimensional Cardassian characters like Dumar, the worst Cardassian character ever written. Gosh, how the great ones had fallen? The writers & producers just didn't know what they had with the Cardassians.
Lynx??? What??? Having those two characters fornicate is the ultimate slap in the face and blasphemous. This was proof of how much of a joke those one time great characters had become. The writers made such a long brown smear on those characters.A great villain!
OK, the whole Pah-Wraith concept was a bit over the top for me but Dukat was still a great villain even in that scenario.
And I liked the Dukat-Winn connection. A beautiful team!
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Yes. But not unmasked as Anjohl. He was the best when he was Cardassian.
It's a reference to the events during and leading up to 'what you leave behind'. Dukat and Winn worked together to release the Pah-wraiths from their prison in the fire caves. Dukat was by this point an unhinged psychopath, and winn was power hungry. What a team.
I can see why Behr would want him to be seen as evil and not as sympathetic or multidimensional. The occasional unrepentant vile monster is always going to be a staple in this medium and is a joy to watch if done right.
That said, from the episode where
Dax's host body is murdered by Dukat and the little slimy gastropod inside slithers into someone else next week.
Note that the last spoiler line was clipped, in full it reads:
"I'm so glad My Little Pony didn't do a crossover with Friday The 13th and without He-Man there to save Jason from going nuts from all of those vile cute po-- wait, what were we talking about yet? Ah yes: gerbils!"
Note that the last spoiler line was clipped, in full it reads:
"I'm so glad My Little Pony didn't do a crossover with Friday The 13th and without He-Man there to save Jason from going nuts from all of those vile cute po-- wait, what were we talking about yet? Ah yes: gerbils!"
that it felt almost scribbled in and throwaway, not a good coda for a main character. It didn't even feel like
how Tasha Yar was killed off as the point was to show the villain of the piece killing superfluously for a cheap thrill. Possessed by demons or not, Dukat killing her out of the blue like that just felt hollow.
I didn't say that it was, but you can be both. And Dukat was.
An evil person can do many things that aren't evil. Being nice to someone or doing a nice thing doesn't preclude also being an evil person.
They had thrown everything in except the kitchen sink by that point! What a strange pair. Villains always turn on each other in the end.
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That's a good point actually. Like, I am pretty sure that even the likes of Hitler looked after his relatives and was nice to people he liked, doesn't mean that some good behaviours would excuse the millions of jews he had tortured and murdered.
As to Dukat, I think he became more and more mentally unhinged as the series progressed. Weyoun (another bad guy) said of him 'You've gone from self important egotist to self-deluded madman, I'd hardly call that an improvement. Guards, remove him'. Weyoun was right, to a degree. In the end his lust for power was still present, even when he was working with Kai Winn to release the pah-wraiths.
What? you don't like them?
I think they were a great team. In the same way that I like Seska and Culluh in Voyager.
Personally, my favorite ending for Dukat would have been as follows: He gets Damar's redemption arc, only on the inside, nothing ever really changes in him. He's still the same image-obsessed egomanic he always was, just that his inflated sense of self-worth accidentally caused him to drift in the right direction. He ends the series dead and considered a hero by the people of Cardassia, with history very quickly papering over the true complexity of his character.
Why would this be awesome? Because it would get to the heart of how false narratives sometimes develop in history - how in the real world, people don't always get their comeuppance, and the truth doesn't always shine through. It would be a gloriously messy ending. Particularly if Garak was forced to embrace the legacy of Dukat (who, remember, hated him) in order to have his desired role in the post-Dominion reconstruction of Cardassia.
Why would this be awesome? Because it would get to the heart of how false narratives sometimes develop in history - how in the real world, people don't always get their comeuppance, and the truth doesn't always shine through. It would be a gloriously messy ending. Particularly if Garak was forced to embrace the legacy of Dukat (who, remember, hated him) in order to have his desired role in the post-Dominion reconstruction of Cardassia.
What? you don't like them?
I think they were a great team. In the same way that I like Seska and Culluh in Voyager.
Cullah was just a garden variety bully, Dukat was something different, something a bit more sinister.
