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NBA 2017 - 2018 Westworld

I don't see how the Cavs are anything but a lottery team if Lebron leaves.

Additional news about Bryan Colangelo's firing, supposedly part of the delay was because his dad threatened to make the Sixers' lives a living hell if they did it.
 
At least in the 80s there were two teams that might win.

And at least when Michael Jordan did it, David Robinson didn't join the team the next year. :mad:
 
At least in the 80s there were two teams that might win.

And at least when Michael Jordan did it, David Robinson didn't join the team the next year. :mad:

I keep reading this comment about why we don't feel this way (Tiring of the same two teams) in the 80s and 90s and I think the thing I loved about the 90s was the star power was much more diverse in terms of what teams had a chance. I mean you had the era of not just Jordan, but Robinson, Ewing, Stockton, Malone, Shaq, Barkley, and countless other star players and it felt like more teams had a chance. I didn't watch the game tonight, but based on what I heard it's the exact problem I have with the NBA. It's too predictable and anticlimatic.
 
Did things feel this pointless when it was Lakers/Celtics every year back in the 80s?
I think it was a little more diverse. Sure, you'd usually the Lakers or the Celtics and sometimes both but not always both and the winner wasn't probably going to be the Lakers. 1980 and 1983 were Lakers/Sixers and the Sixers swept the Lakers one of those years. 1986 was Celtics Rockets. 1988 and 1989 were Lakers/Pistons and, in 89, the Pistons swept the Lakers. Lakers/Celtics were 1984, 1985, and 1987 and the Celtics won two out of three.

I think Lebron James getting to the finals was actually somewhat compelling because he was able to will his team there through superhuman effort, but this series felt like a foregone conclusion.

In other news, Joel Embiid continues to be the king of social media: Trust the Process! Find a New Slant KingJames

It's fun seeing him take shots at Bryan Colangelo.
 
I keep reading this comment about why we don't feel this way (Tiring of the same two teams) in the 80s and 90s and I think the thing I loved about the 90s was the star power was much more diverse in terms of what teams had a chance. I mean you had the era of not just Jordan, but Robinson, Ewing, Stockton, Malone, Shaq, Barkley, and countless other star players and it felt like more teams had a chance. I didn't watch the game tonight, but based on what I heard it's the exact problem I have with the NBA. It's too predictable and anticlimatic.

I agree. Even the lower-seeded playoff teams had multiple stars. The Charlotte Hornets of the mid-90s had Larry Johnson and Alonzo Mourning, and the Blazers had a nice combination of experience (Strickland and Sabonis) and youth (Cliff Robinson). The Sonics of the same era had an underrated Big 3 in Payton, Kemp and Schrempf (which eventually got them to the Finals).

Despite what people might say now, it was not always a foregone conclusion that the Bulls were going to win. They were some who thought they’d be swept after they went down 2-0 to the Knicks in the ‘93 ECF, and it was never really clear who they’d face from the West, which was still loaded but much more balanced in those days, as there was very little separation among Seattle, Houston, Phoenix, Utah and Portland.
 
Congrats to the Dubs and to KD. Both very deserving of what they've achieved this season, joining the Heat and Lakers as the only teams to repeat as champs. What up, Spurs? :hugegrin:

Lebron watch on.

And at least when Michael Jordan did it, David Robinson didn't join the team the next year. :mad:
So, what, you're advocating an end to open free agency? The salary cap and the new restrictive rules in the CBA are in place to limit a single team's ability to hoard star talent. The problem is not the players' fault, Durant took a pay cut to sign with the Dubs. The problem is incompetent ownership and management of teams who can't seem to put one foot in front of the other when it comes to basketball. Most of the aforementioned also happen to reside in the eastern conference.

The Dubs can be beaten, as early as next season, but it's going to take some basketball and personnel acumen, not some arbitrary rule change that penalizes competence and rewards incompetence.
Tiring of the same two teams) in the 80s and 90s and I think the thing I loved about the 90s was the star power was much more diverse in terms of what teams had a chance. I mean you had the era of not just Jordan, but Robinson, Ewing, Stockton, Malone, Shaq,

Barkley, and countless other star players and it felt like more teams had a chance. I didn't watch the game tonight, but based on what I heard it's the exact problem I have with the NBA. It's too predictable and anticlimatic.
There has never been much diversity when it comes to the NBA Finals. The Lakers and Celts have been in 33 of the 72 NBA Finals that have ever been played. A good argument could be made even today that the Celts and Lakers are usually in the Finals. Four straight Finals with the same teams, particularly the Cavs and Dubs, two franchises who very few appearance in the Final overall, is a bit shortsighted.
I think itwas a little more diverse. Sure, you'd usually the Lakers or the Celtics and sometimes both but not always both and the winner wasn't probably going to be the Lakers. 1980 and 1983 were Lakers/Sixers and the Sixers swept the Lakers one of those years. 1986 was Celtics Rockets. 1988 and 1989 were Lakers/Pistons and, in 89, the Pistons swept the Lakers. Lakers/Celtics were 1984, 1985, and 1987 and the Celtics won two out of three.
Just some points of clarification, the Lakers lost 8 straight Finals to the Celts through '84, so I don't think anyone thought they would probably beat the Celts until they actually did.

Celts were also in the Finals in '81 and they won.

The Lakers actually won 2 of the 3 meetings with the Celts in the '80's.

Lakers and Sixers played in the Finals '80, '82, and '83. The Lakers won 2 of the 3.

The Lakers were in the Finals in '87 and '88, winning both times.
Even the lower-seeded playoff teams had multiple stars. The Charlotte Hornets of the mid-90s had Larry Johnson and Alonzo Mourning, and the Blazers had a nice combination of experience (Strickland and Sabonis) and youth (Cliff Robinson). The Sonics of the same era had an underrated Big 3 in Payton, Kemp and Schrempf (which eventually got them to the Finals).
I don't think there are any fewer stars in the league today than back in the '90's. Nearly every team in the league has at least one star player who is known as such around the league. I think there are only a few teams in the league who don't have a bonafide star, not just a go-to-guy, a star. The Clippers come to mind, Atl Hawks maybe. How many others? I'm actually tempeted to say that there really seems like there are even more stars today because of the greater number of games on local and national TV and media coverage in general. We know more players today than all but the most devoted of fans 25 to 30 years ago.
 
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No, I'm not advocating to end free agency, just to place limitations on the very extreme end when the second best player in the league joins a team that just set the regular season win record.

The salary cap exists to prevent all the best players from going to the same team, the Warriors are proof that the salary cap has failed. Maybe have a hard salary cap instead of a soft one?

Yeah, the Warriors might be beat next year but if it happens it'll be because another team that was already good signed one of the best players in the league. So matching lameness with lameness.
 
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The salary cap exists to prevent all the best players from going to the same team, the Warriors are proof that the salary cap has failed. Maybe have a hard salary cap instead of a soft one?
A hard cap and an elimination of max contracts would be the way to go. As it stands, most great players can go to any team and get the max or close to it. If they eliminated max contracts, they might be able to get double that from a team that wants to devote their entire cap to one player. That would dramatically change the equation.
 
No, I'm not advocating to end free agency, just place limitations on the very extreme end when the second best player in the league joins a team that just set the regular season win record.
The reason this doesn't happen in the NFL is because they have the "Franchise Tag" that restricts the movement of the league's top players. If the NFLPA had any real power, they would have certainly prevented the Tag from becoming part of the NFL CBA, but they couldn't stop it. This will never happen in the NBA (though NBA owners have wanted it for years), unless it can be objectively proven to the NBA Player's Union, that free movement of the league's top players is bad for all.

The fact is, it isn't bad for the league. The only thing that's bad is the fact that the east has been competitive only occasionally over the past several years. Once the Sixers and Celts come of age, all this will change (if the Sixers don't find a way to screw it up).
The salary cap exists to prevent all the best players from going to the same team, the Warriors are proof that the salary cap has failed. Maybe have a hard salary cap instead of a soft one?
Agree about the purpose of the cap, but how did it fail with the Warriors? They stayed within cap rules in signing Durant. Keep in mind, they only signed one player, not several big names, just Durant. Why should they be prevented from that? Also keep in mind, the Dubs drafted their core. They didn't acquire them through FA.
Yeah, the Warriors might be beat next year but if it happens it'll be because another team that was already good signed one of the best players in the league. So matching lameness with lameness.
You mean, some other team will take advantage of free agency. Are you sure you don't want to see an end to FA?
A hard cap and an elimination of max contracts would be the way to go. As it stands, most great players can go to any team and get the max or close to it. If they eliminated max contracts, they might be able to get double that from a team that wants to devote their entire cap to one player. That would dramatically change the equation.
I think the cap is good for the league overall. Without it, rich big market teams would have a much better chance of getting not just the league's top players, but most of the next tier of really good ones, like Iguadola, and other valuable role players.


There are a fair number of teams who are so incompetent that you cannot allow them the option of spending freely for players. It's unhealthy for the entire league.
 
It failed because one team was allowed to become disproportionately strong, which made two seasons in a row incredibly boring. The entire purpose of the cap is to have parity in the league. There is none. Therefore, the cap has failed.

It may actually be good for league profits as you say, but it makes the league a whole lot less entertaining. So fine, you can argue it is good for business, good for the investors, bad for us.

I went to a bunch of games this year, and watched a lot of TV broadcasts. If there is one team other than my home team that no other team has any chance to beat next year, I will go to see zero games and watch much less basketball on TV. If enough people do this, it will become bad business to have superteams.

I think Jarok's point is that if you eliminated the max contract and created a hard cap, then players like Lebron or Durant could get a much higher percentage of the cap, and thus to sign a player like that you'd have much less to spend on other stars. Or at least, the discount stars would have to take to get a free championship would be much larger.

Be honest for a second. Other than people who have been Warriors fans for years, do you think *anybody* is more entertained now than they were two years ago when the Cavs/Warriors series was well balanced? Profits aside, purely speaking of entertainment value for the average fan whose home team is not Golden State.
 
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Also one more thing, your argument: "If you want any limits at all on free agency you want to completely eliminate free agency."

Stop it. That is dumb. A straw man argument, arguing against the extreme. Just poor debate.
 
I think the cap is good for the league overall. Without it, rich big market teams would have a much better chance of getting not just the league's top players, but most of the next tier of really good ones, like Iguadola, and other valuable role players.
No one is saying get rid of the cap. The question is whether you want a soft cap that lets a good team sign good players even when they're out of cap space and lets them re-sign their players for even more money when they're over the cap or you want a hard cap that limits how much you can spend.
 
It failed because one team was allowed to become disproportionately strong, which made two seasons in a row incredibly boring. The entire purpose of the cap is to have parity in the league. There is none. Therefore, the cap has failed.
First of all, that's not the purpose of the cap. It's not there to prevent a player like Durant from joining a team like GSW. To characterize the Durant to GSW free agency deal as a failure of the cap, is to not understand the purpose of the cap.

The purpose of the NBA's cap is not to create parity. The NBA is not after parity. If they were, they'd have a hard cap, no Mid-level exception, no Bird Rule, etc. The league knows that NBA fans, hardcore and casual, aren't attracted to the Finals because of the teams. They are drawn by the league's biggest stars, who tend to gravitate to the big markets. It is a by product of open FA in the NBA.

Besides, San Antonio has proven that you don't HAVE to be a big market team in order to get stars and win.
It may actually be good for league profits as you say, but it makes the league a whole lot less entertaining. So fine, you can argue it is good for business, good for the investors, bad for us.
Investors? You mean the owners. They don't want to see a a string of 4 game Finals, but we haven't seen that.

What is bad for the fans and owners alike, is an entire conference that doesn't know how to build a championship team. It is not the Dub's fault that the east is sub par. But as I have argued, this period where GSW dominates, is not likely going to last much longer despite the relative youth of their core.

Don't fix what isn't broken. Tell the east to do a better job of team building, rather than blaming their problems on league rules.
Be honest for a second. Other than people who have been Warriors fans for years, do you think *anybody* is more entertained now than they were two years ago when the Cavs/Warriors series was well balanced? Profits aside, purely speaking of entertainment value for the average fan whose home team is not Golden State.
"Years ago"?

Okay, four game sweeps are rarely entertaining, however, "years ago", as you put it (actually just 4 years ago), these two teams played an exciting 6 game series in the Finals. Three years ago the Cavs came back from being down 3-1 and won a stunning game 7 on the road.

It is only the last two years that the Cavs have totally sucked. Don't get distracted by the "shiny object" that is the Cavs stunning fall from competitiveness.
Also one more thing, your argument: "If you want any limits at all on free agency you want to completely eliminate free agency."

Stop it. That is dumb. A straw man argument, arguing against the extreme. Just poor debate.
Pretty much everything you wrote before pointed to a desire to stop Kevin Durant type FA deals. How are you going to do that and maintain open free agency? That's why I mentioned the NFL's franchise tag, because that would have stopped the Durant deal. Now, if you have a different rule or process that would have stopped the Durant deal...I'm all ears.

BTW, there are already limits on free agency. Read the rules.You are advocating additional limits to free agency essentially because of what has happened in the Finals the last two years. Although I don't consider GSW to be a superteam in the traditional sense (2 or more free agents acquired through FA to join other superstars), it is unlikely they'll make it to another Finals next season. Once again, the problem is not league rules, it is the lack of competence of management in the eastern conference. And even "true" superteams don't always win. OKC, anyone?
No one is saying get rid of the cap. The question is whether you want a soft cap that lets a good team sign good players even when they're out of cap space and lets them re-sign their players for even more money when they're over the cap or you want a hard cap that limits how much you can spend.
I see, yes, small market NBA owners have argued for years for a hard cap. The last CBA tightened cap rules even further. I can only assume the owners in favor of a hard cap think it will make the job of building a winner less difficult for them. The problem is, as always, the Spurs, who have proven that small market teams don't need a hard cap in order to win.

Implementing rules, like a hard cap, which would force more top tier players out into the open market, is a move designed to promote parity and I just don't think that is a good model for basketball. It works for the NFL mainly because there are so many more players and most of them are "faceless" because of the equipment.

Parity works in the NFL because the league sells teams v teams, city v city. Because of the nature of basketball, fewer players, identifiable stars, the NBA sells stars (unless it's Boston v L.A., or L.A. v New York).

Further, the NBA's soft cap does encourage players to stay with the team that drafts them, which is also to the benefit of small market teams. But if you draft the wrong guys, a soft cap wont help -- neither will a hard cap. It all boils down to the astuteness of management and ownership regardless of the FA and cap rules.

Finally, I am against rules that further restrict player movement. People look at the NFL and think that model is good for any team sport. That simply is not true and the NBAPA will continue to oppose it.
 
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Wow, seems like Kawhi's going bye-bye. Well San Antonio, it was a good run, but all good things...
If Pop retires soon, it'd be interesting to have Becky Hammon step up and make history with that organization. Not to say she'll automatically be successful, but yet another glass ceiling will have been broached.
It would be so KANGZ if Sacto gave up the 2 and change for a one-year rental.
 
I'd love to see this happen, as long as the Spurs believe Hammond is the right choice for head coach. It would also be further evidence that the NBA is the most progressive and inclusive of the major American pro leagues.
 
Celtics have interesting choice to make right now.

Probably have the most to offer for Kawhi, but how much do you *really* pay for a guy with one year left on his contract who said he wants to go to LA? If you can not get Kawhi to agree to sign an extension right away, you certainly don't give up your young future all stars who are cheap for two and three more years. Without a commitment longer than a year, I think at most they give Kyrie and the Kings pick.
 
Without a commitment longer than a year, I think at most they give Kyrie and the Kings pick.

:eek: That would actually not be too bad, depending on whether Aldridge et. al. can play together effectively with Kyrie... and the second pick yields a potential all-star ready to go from the jump.
 
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