What kept Crusher and Picard apart?

[GulBahana]

I was watching Attached today and it was obvious Picard was ready to explore those feelings but Crusher was afraid. Were they planning on saving it for the movies and then the writers changed their minds? It would have been nice for them to finally get together for a time.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

He was her direct superior. All Good Things implied the moment they were not serving on the same ship they got married.

 

[Timewalker]

It's against Starfleet protocol for an officer to have a personal relationship with a direct superior/subordinate. Since Picard was superior to everyone on the Enterprise, that meant that strictly speaking, he could only have personal relationships with someone who was either not serving on the Enterprise or who was not an officer serving on the Enterprise.

He tried to make a personal relationship work with the female officer with the roll-up piano (don't recall her name), but discovered it was untenable when he thought she might have been killed in action.


Of course the real reason is because it would have restricted both Picard and Beverly from having love interests with people from off the ship and therefore would have limited the kind of scripts they could have used. And not putting them together keeps the fans wondering if "next season" would be when they'd finally get together.

 

[Mojochi]

It's against Starfleet protocol for an officer to have a personal relationship with a direct superior/subordinate

I honestly don't think it is or he'd never have struck one up with Nella Darren to begin with. Riker rolls around with subordinates all the time from the look of things. I think Starfleet must give a lot of leeway there, as bad an idea as it clearly is

 

[Timewalker]

Or the rules could have been changed by the time Janeway took command of Voyager?

I guess Picard could have fudged it a bit since Nella was a science officer and not assigned to the Bridge or anywhere close to being in the chain of command.

 

[Mojochi]

Or the rules could have been changed by the time Janeway took command of Voyager?

I guess Picard could have fudged it a bit since Nella was a science officer and not assigned to the Bridge or anywhere close to being in the chain of command.

She is a commander though & commands away teams etc... It's pretty shady & plot dependent though. I'm not as well versed on Voyager. Did they come out and actually say it was against protocol at some point?

 

[Timewalker]

She is a commander though & commands away teams etc... It's pretty shady & plot dependent though. I'm not as well versed on Voyager. Did they come out and actually say it was against protocol at some point?

Janeway keeps trotting out "parameters" to justify her refusal to let Chakotay get any closer to her than quoting some stupid "Angry Warrior" legend (his version of love poetry, apparently). There's exactly one episode in which she unbends even a little bit with Chakotay - when they're both stranded on a planet and they don't expect to ever get off and back to Voyager, let alone back to Earth.

But of course they get rescued and Janeway promptly puts up the "parameters" barrier and they're back to Captain and Commander.

The only people Janeway actually has any sort of romantic relationship with are either holograms (ie. Michael Sullivan in the "Fairhaven" program) or Jaffen (the man she met and moved in with in "Workforce" when she had amnesia and couldn't remember being a starship captain).


She's so much into this ridiculous "parameter"/protocol crap that when she realizes that it could take up to 70 years to get home, she doesn't immediately start relaxing the rules to encourage people to develop whatever romantic relationships they want, with the aim of producing the next generation of people who will be needed to crew the starship in the decades to come.

It's insane that in all those years there was only one marriage (Tom and B'Elanna) and two children born (Naomi - because her mother was already pregnant when Voyager left DS9 and didn't know she was pregnant; and Miral - Tom and B'Elanna's daughter).

There was an alt-universe in which there were more marriages and children, but in the main timeline? Nope - Janeway and her ridiculous "parameters" that made most of the crew afraid to pair off and have kids. She must have thought that Harry, at age 92, would be bringing Voyager back to Earth, so there wouldn't ever be any reason for marriages or children.

She was just so uptight and Starfleet. And apparently there was some rule that anyone wanting to engage in "intimate relations" with any alien non-Alpha Quadrant species had to get medical clearance and permission first.

This must either have been a rule implemented post-TNG/pre-Voyager, or it was Janeway's own rule.

 

[Spot261]

It's against Starfleet protocol for an officer to have a personal relationship with a direct superior/subordinate. Since Picard was superior to everyone on the Enterprise, that meant that strictly speaking, he could only have personal relationships with someone who was either not serving on the Enterprise or who was not an officer serving on the Enterprise.

*Cough* Riker *cough*

 

[Timewalker]

Yes, I know. Please see my most recent post.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

What kept Crusher and Picard apart? Bad writing.

It's against Starfleet protocol for an officer to have a personal relationship with a direct superior/subordinate. Since Picard was superior to everyone on the Enterprise, that meant that strictly speaking, he could only have personal relationships with someone who was either not serving on the Enterprise or who was not an officer serving on the Enterprise.

No, it isn't. See:

He tried to make a personal relationship work with the female officer with the roll-up piano (don't recall her name), but discovered it was untenable when he thought she might have been killed in action.

The episode is "Lessons." The officer was Nella Daren.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Nella_Daren

From "Lessons" [http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/245.htm]:

PICARD: Sit down, Counsellor. I want to talk to you about a matter of protocol. I know there are no Starfleet regulations about a Captain becoming involved with a fellow officer, but
TROI: You would like my opinion about you and Commander Daren.
PICARD: It's that obvious?
TROI: In a way that pleases people who care about your happiness, yes, it is.
PICARD: But I have to be concerned about more than my own happiness.
TROI: And you think that your feelings toward Nella could change the way you function as Captain.
PICARD: Yes. Relationships with co-workers can be fraught with consequences.
TROI: That's true. But cutting yourself off from your feelings can carry consequences that are just as serious.
PICARD: You seem [sic] I've always believed that becoming involved with someone under my command would compromise my objectivity. And yet.
TROI: Captain, are you asking my permission?
PICARD: If I were, would you give it?
TROI: Yes.​

It is not against Starfleet protocol as you claimed. Not only do no regulations forbid the relationship, but if it were "against protocol," Troi would not have encouraged Picard to pursue the relationship. The relationship failed, but not because of any regulations or "Starfleet protocol" forbidding such a relationship.

 

[Mojochi]

Janeway keeps trotting out "parameters" to justify her refusal to let Chakotay get any closer to her than quoting some stupid "Angry Warrior" legend (his version of love poetry, apparently). There's exactly one episode in which she unbends even a little bit with Chakotay - when they're both stranded on a planet and they don't expect to ever get off and back to Voyager, let alone back to Earth.

But of course they get rescued and Janeway promptly puts up the "parameters" barrier and they're back to Captain and Commander.

The only people Janeway actually has any sort of romantic relationship with are either holograms (ie. Michael Sullivan in the "Fairhaven" program) or Jaffen (the man she met and moved in with in "Workforce" when she had amnesia and couldn't remember being a starship captain).


She's so much into this ridiculous "parameter"/protocol crap that when she realizes that it could take up to 70 years to get home, she doesn't immediately start relaxing the rules to encourage people to develop whatever romantic relationships they want, with the aim of producing the next generation of people who will be needed to crew the starship in the decades to come.

It's insane that in all those years there was only one marriage (Tom and B'Elanna) and two children born (Naomi - because her mother was already pregnant when Voyager left DS9 and didn't know she was pregnant; and Miral - Tom and B'Elanna's daughter).

There was an alt-universe in which there were more marriages and children, but in the main timeline? Nope - Janeway and her ridiculous "parameters" that made most of the crew afraid to pair off and have kids. She must have thought that Harry, at age 92, would be bringing Voyager back to Earth, so there wouldn't ever be any reason for marriages or children.

She was just so uptight and Starfleet. And apparently there was some rule that anyone wanting to engage in "intimate relations" with any alien non-Alpha Quadrant species had to get medical clearance and permission first.

This must either have been a rule implemented post-TNG/pre-Voyager, or it was Janeway's own rule.

Good grief. That's kind of nonsense there. Technically, Worf was in a position to be in command of Jadzia, right? So it just doesn't seem to be in place until Janeway. Even if something is on the books by then, if anybody could be exempted, people lost in deep space (likely for the rest of their lives or at least youth) ought to be

 

[Timewalker]

Agreed.

 

[Prax]

Whether it's a rule or not(and they don't say in VOY) it's just a generally smart practice that people generally follow. A relationship between an employer and employee, manager and subordinate, commanding officer and subordinate, etc, presents a conflict of interest. They often cause problems.

It's not just Janeway that held to this standard. The other captains did too, particularly Picard and Kirk.

If they began dating/got married and Chakotay could transfer to another command, that would be more responsible and wouldn't upset the command structure, but they didn't have that option.

I think they mention other people "pairing off" a few times. There's an episode where the doctor makes a projection of all the babies that will be born on Voyager over the next few years. It's just the main cast that has the one long term relationship.
Chakotay had a bunch of love interests, Janeway had a few, like Kashyk, everyone else had a few. Neelix and Kes had a sort of long term thing, Paris had a few love interests like Rain Robinson, and even Kim had a few love interests.

 

[Timewalker]

It's not just Janeway that held to this standard. The other captains did too, particularly Picard and Kirk.

I'd have said Sisko was better at it than Picard. Picard did have a relationship with a subordinate. I don't remember Sisko doing that with any of the female officers on DS9, whether Starfleet or Bajoran. Kassidy Yates wasn't Starfleet.

Chakotay had a bunch of love interests, Janeway had a few, like Kashyk, everyone else had a few. Neelix and Kes had a sort of long term thing, Paris had a few love interests like Rain Robinson, and even Kim had a few love interests.

Chakotay had two love interests on Voyager - Janeway and Seven. He and Seska weren't a couple anymore, by the time the Maquis crew joined Voyager.

I absolutely never interpreted Janeway's relationship to Kashyk as anything but coerced or manipulative. She might have let her guard down a little, but most of that flirting was meant to get his guard down so he would be less likely to figure out just what Voyager's strategy was against his people. I don't believe there was ever anything genuinely romantic between them. It was a really sick, toxic, manipulative thing. Any physical relationships Janeway had were either on the holodeck or with alien men (ie. Jaffen).

Neelix and Kes weren't officially officers and had no real place in the chain of command. They were basically passengers, working their passage by providing services such as cooking, trading, gardening, and nursing. Neither had any official rank.

Seven had no proper Starfleet rank, and the bulk of her "relationships" were either on the holodeck (with the fake Chakotay) or with Axum... and they weren't even physically on the same Cube when it happened. Of course there were officers who did want a relationship with her - the Doctor and Harry - but those were unrequited. TPTB should have built up the relationship with Chakotay more, rather than one episode with Seven and fake-Chakotay, one episode with the two of them stranded on a planet, and then BOOM! they're dating.

Tom and Harry had some kind of double-dating going on with the Delaney sisters, and a few other female crew who were so low on the totem pole that we never even learned their names. Harry couldn't even get a date with a hologram, and kept getting into trouble with the alien women he dated.

Tom's relationship with Rain had no bearing on the ship, other than the fact that he was flirting with her to get information and help - much like Kirk used to do, although I think Tom was much less cynical about it than Kirk ever was. Rain was never a subordinate to him; she could have said "yes" to a physical relationship and it wouldn't have made a bit of difference in the command structure of Voyager, even if they'd brought Rain with them. She was a civilian, not military or NASA. And in the end, Tom and B'Elanna were the only ones who ended up with a real, normal marriage and child (I exclude Tuvok, since his family already existed pre-Voyager).

 

[NigellaDeanna20]

I was watching Attached today and it was obvious Picard was ready to explore those feelings but Crusher was afraid. Were they planning on saving it for the movies and then the writers changed their minds? It would have been nice for them to finally get together for a time.

professionalism. One has to remember that Crusher was picard's subordinate and also picard mayu have felt some degree of guilt for the death of jack crusher. so that would be my guess.

 

[Prax]

In the episode, Crusher can read Picard's thoughts. She says "You were in love with me!" and not on the Enterprise, but back when she was dating Jack, Picard's best friend. Picard felt guilty over that, and says that after Jack died, he couldn't "swoop in."
She then(while still reading his thoughts) says "and now we are friends" in the sense of "And now you see me as a friend, and are no longer in love with me."

 

[2takesfrakes]

TNG should've had Bev & Picard become more than an occasional flirtation, on the show. They looked good together and it would've helped further distance the show from TOS in texture and flavour. But it wouldn't have lasted, anyway, even if they did. Picard's a Frenchman, for one thing ... with a Frenchman's libido! For another, Picard didn't go for cougars. No. The Good Captain liked young women along the lines of Vash and Kamala. Captain Phillipa Louvois doesn't count, because she was the interested party. She raped him with her eyes and hit on him with the cheesiest pick-up lines and wondered why he never got back to her. It wasn't until she $aved Data's life in the courtroom that Picard took a shine to her. And even then, it was just a dinner date. Bev, though ... she would've been an interesting one-night-stand for Jean-Luc and it's such a shame they didn't go there. But to have him finally tell her, "Beverly, how can I tell you this? It's all so awkward, this whole thing. I'm sorry ... but, you're just too damned old for me."

 

[Shikarnov]

In the episode, Crusher can read Picard's thoughts. She says "You were in love with me!" and not on the Enterprise, but back when she was dating Jack, Picard's best friend. Picard felt guilty over that, and says that after Jack died, he couldn't "swoop in."
She then(while still reading his thoughts) says "and now we are friends" in the sense of "And now you see me as a friend, and are no longer in love with me."

My thoughts exactly. There's a ghost between them -- Jack's ghost. I can't imagine any decent person being comfortable moving on their best friend's SO... especially in the situation that Picard found himself, that is feeling responsible for Jack's death.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Just because something isn't officially against protocol doesn't mean it's a good idea.

The episode with Neela Daren is called "Lessons". He learns the lesson from that episode the problems with having a relationship with a person you're in command of. Every decision you make regarding that person comes under scrutiny as being special treatment, so either you give the person special treatment or you overcompensate by giving them overly harsh treatment. And Picard learned that there's no way he could possibly order somebody into the line of fire if he loved them. He can't pursue romance with Beverly because of the lessons he learned from trying it with Daren.

There's a bit of an ideological clash between the evolved 'free love' of season 1 and the increasingly realistic social dynamics of later in the series. If we are truly evolved human beings maybe you can have a relationship with your superior officer and not have it be a problem, but Picard clearly could not.

Also, I think deep down Picard knew that falling in love with a woman and having a real relationship would eventually mean settling down, which he just wasn't able to do, so he made excuses and insulated himself from real intimacy.

 

[Visitor1982]

Pulaski! Picard secretly loved her!